Hexagram 18 from Confucian perspective

[tuckchang]

Gu in Chinese means poisonous worms which have been long bred in an enclosed bowl, and very often refers to evil emanating from decay; therefore Gu of Hex 18 stands for long-standing malpractices which are created by, and cover, those evil. According to the coupled hexagram, Gu signifies to put (things) in order, i.e. to remove the bad and readjust remains orderly. Thus, Gu (to remove the long-standing malpractice), great and smooth progress (as the malpractice won't be followed after Sui, Hex 17); it is instrumental in crossing the great river. Three days before Jia (the first code of the Heavenly Stems, i.e. the beginning), and three days after Jia, signifying ‘to judiciously investigate the cause before action is taken, and to deliberately evaluate the effects after the action’ are instrumental in overcoming difficulties in undertaking the great mission. The text doesn’t indicate whether a successful reform can be achieved or not, and that which is given in Confucius’s judgment remarks is: to go forth, and there are things to tackle (instead of merits achievable); however Confucius encouraged people: after an ending there is a new start, (this is the way that) Nature behaves. The wind dispels the miasma created by Gu at the foot of the mountain, Confucius advises according to its image that a gentleman should inspire people and (educate them as well as) cultivate their virtue (in order to enable them to do away with evil and engage in goodness).

Best regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[charly]

Gu in Chinese means poisonous worms which have been long bred in an enclosed bowl... Gu signifies to put (things) in order...

Hi, Tuck:

I have read that GU was HARM due to ancestor´s malignity, but literally read, I always believed that it was about how to HANDLE COMPLAINS addressed to PARENTS, as a journey towards personal autonomy.

In my country POISON, in fugurate sense, means RANCOR, do you fin reasonable to translate GAN GU as HANDLING RANCOR ?

Say, we cannot fix our deceased parents´ behavior, we only can fix the effects over ourselves. I like much your STERN AND CRUEL (instead of dangerous) revision of ourselves in 18.1.

I don´t find in the received text the reference that make Wilhelm to the blameless of the father. Maybe it comes from another texts or is it mere interpolation?

Thanks for all.


Charly

 

[pocossin]

Wikipedia now has a substantial article on Gu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu_(poison)

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Charly,

Due to the features that which Gu possesses, i.e. ‘poisonous’, ‘long bred’ and the darkness of ‘an enclosed bowl’, as well as ‘evil’ and ‘decay’, it is translated by me as old-aged malpractices which are left over from the generation of the parents. Of course, there are other translations available in Chinese writings, for instance, the corruption over a long period of time, the turmoil caused by bewitchment (蠱惑). Rancor or the feud can also be the one from the viewpoint that Gu is something harmful.

幹 Gan 蠱 Gu of the father or the mother: Gan signifies to do, to fight on, or to kill in terms of verb; it is interpreted by my as to remove, i.e. to remove the malpractice left over from the generation of the parents. I personally prefer to annotate Gu of hex 18 as ‘to remove the long standing malpractice’ since it fits very well the paraphrases of all line texts.

Usually 咎 (jiu4) is understood as: blame, fault, or calamity. From the viewpoint that Zhou Yi mainly offers people the advice of how to avoid misfortune and pursue good fortune, most of times I take it for calamity or fault. Of course, depending on the context, sometimes I also translate it as blame.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[rodaki]

At some point I went thru a very intense 18 period -I guess as many of you have- dealing with the corruption of previous malpractice. After it was over and I had come out of it I came across this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMlxIE9-JsA&feature=related


. . it is a tad silly but it I think it depicts very well what was needed at the time: sterilize everything and go deep . . especially the last part of it felt very much like 46.6 but when I came out of it and into 18.6 it felt real good

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,

... Usually 咎 (jiu4) is understood as: blame, fault, or calamity. From the viewpoint that Zhou Yi mainly offers people the advice of how to avoid misfortune and pursue good fortune, most of times I take it for calamity or fault. Of course, depending on the context, sometimes I also translate it as blame...

Hi, Tuck:

I was wondering about Wilhem-Baynes version of 18.8:

Setting right what has been spoiled by the father.
If there is a son,
No blame rests upon the departed father.
Danger. In the end good fortune.
W/B

Greg Richter:

DEAL with CORRUPTION caused BY the FATHER.
If there IS a SON, the DECEASED FATHER shall suffer NO BLAME. DANGER, but the END will be AUSPICIOUS.
Richter

And Legge:

... (a son) dealing with the troubles caused by his father. If he be an (able) son, the father will escape the blame of having erred. The position is perilous, but there will be good fortune in the end.
Legge

The received text says:

幹父之蠱‧有子考‧無咎‧厲終吉‧​

Comparing usual meanings with W/B (uppecase):

幹 gan4: to manage / SETTING RIGHT
父 fu4: father / [BY THE] FATHER
之 zhi1: ... ´s / him / her / it /
蠱 gu3: poison / [WHAT HAS BEEN] SPOILED
有 you3: to have / there is / there are / [IF] THERE IS
子 zi3: son / child / / egg / seed / fruit // earl / (1) / [A] SON
考 kao3: examination / to investigate / to verify // deceased father / old / [REST UPON THE] DEPARTED FATHER
無 wu2: no / not / without / (2) / NO
咎 jiu4: blame / mistake / wrong / BLAME
厲 li4: severe / stern / cruel // harsh // danger / (3) / DANGER
終 zhong1: [IN THE] END
吉 ji2: lucky / fortunate / GOOD FORTUNE


I wonder if for 考 kao3 it wouldn´t make more sense TO EXAMINE, TO DEEPEN.

MANAGING FATHER´S POISON,
Managing bad influences received from the father,

[IF] THERE ARE CHILDREN,
mainly having children depending upon you,

TO EXAMINE [IS] NO WRONG.
to deepen and study the causes is not a mistake.
It´s not better to let thinghs there.

STERN AND CRUEL,
although difficult and painful for yourself,

[BUT AT THE] END, LUCKY.
it will end with luck.

​

To exonerate fathers from their responsibilities is not good, even more if we ourselves are in turn fathers.

Break the chain of rancor.


Don´t you believe?


Yours,


Charly

_____________________
(1) Also 1st. earthly branch in chinese calendar.
(2) In fact another character wu with the same sense, I´m quoting from Yellowbridge.
(3) There was a cruel king with this name.

 

[tuckchang]

幹父之蠱‧有子考‧無咎‧厲終吉‧​

幹 gan4: to manage / SETTING RIGHT
父 fu4: father / [BY THE] FATHER
之 zhi1: ... ´s / him / her / it /
蠱 gu3: poison / [WHAT HAS BEEN] SPOILED
有 you3: to have / there is / there are / [IF] THERE IS
子 zi3: son / child / / egg / seed / fruit // earl / (1) / [A] SON
考 kao3: examination / to investigate / to verify // deceased father / old / [REST UPON THE] DEPARTED FATHER
無 wu2: no / not / without / (2) / NO
咎 jiu4: blame / mistake / wrong / BLAME
厲 li4: severe / stern / cruel // harsh // danger / (3) / DANGER
終 zhong1: [IN THE] END
吉 ji2: lucky / fortunate / GOOD FORTUNE

Hi Charly,

As you knew, different comma positions in ancient Chinese writing give different interpretations of a sentence, for instance,
2) 有子，考旡咎: If There IS a SON, the DECEASED FATHER shall suffer NO BLAME.
3) 有子，考，旡咎
4) 有子，考旡，咎
There are also many ways to determine the comma position; the context is one of them. For your reference, the version of 2) 有子，考旡咎 is commonly regarded as the reference most likely because of the commentary on the small image: 幹父之蠱，意承考也: To remove the father’s Gu; its significance is that this is inherited from the deceased father, i.e. it is to remove the long-standing malpractice left over from the deceased father, instead of removing the father’s malpractice.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[charly]

... different comma positions in ancient Chinese writing give different interpretations of a sentence, for instance,
2) 有子，考旡咎: If There IS a SON, the DECEASED FATHER shall suffer NO BLAME.
... 有子，考旡咎 is commonly regarded as the reference most likely because of the commentary on the small image: 幹父之蠱，意承考也...

Hi, Tuck:

I believe that with the same comma position we might read:

If there IS a SON, TO EXAMINE is NO WRONG.
​

It would be no conflictive with the small image text.


I wonder how popular was the acception of deceased father. In Schuessler Etymological Dictionary there are only two meanings for 考 KAO, examine and beat.

Yours,



Charly

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Charly,

考 (kao3) 妣 (bi3) is an ancient and formal expression in Chinese for the deceased father and mother.

Many texts of Zhou Yi can be, and are, interpreted into various and different meanings. The point is whether the reader can catch what its text intends to tell us and why it told us all those through the interpretations.

From the perspective of removing the malpractice, 承 (cheng2: to inherit) 考 (kao3: the deceased father) of the commentary on the small image of 18.1 points out that the malpractice is a long-standing one which is left over from the deceased father, and what to be removed is not part of the father but that which is left over from the deceased father.

In viewing the development along the timeline, 18.1 starts up the removal and 18.6 ends it up. Removal of long-standing malpractices will definitely affect those who possess vested interests, so the deceased father (or in other words, those who have engaged in malpractices) not been hurt or blamed is the prerequisite. Then removal is carried on among lines 2 and 3, those below (of the bottom), as well as lines 4 and 5, those above (of the upper trigram), like the children who inherit the malpractice from their parents and are responsible to remove them, and like righting themselves or their correlate that are not at the right position.(remarks: positions 1, 3 and 5 are designated for masculinity, while positions 2, 4 and 6 are for femininity)

Line 1 removes the father’s Gu; a son is available, so the deceased father won’t suffer calamity (or won’t be blamed); stern & cruel but eventually it will become auspicious. The deceased father won’t be hurt or blamed because the reform is carried out by his son who inherits those malpractices; the job is tough as it involves self reform, but it will be auspicious in the end as reform can be carried out with less opposition and malpractices won’t affect the new generation if they are rooted out from the beginning phase. After this line changes to the masculine and righteously acts at its position, the hexagram becomes Da Chu: large storage and great restraint (26), wherein people are disciplined till they are able to act correctly.

Line 2 removes the mother’s Gu; it doesn’t permit persistence. The malpractice of the mother can refer to that which can’t be terminated drastically like that of the father. Line 2 correlates with line 5; both need to be corrected as they do not stay at their right positions. However the reform involves the person holding power as line 5 is at the king’s position; the one in charge of reform should not persist in acting, i.e. he doesn't necessarily act righteously but moderately, like the line at the middle position of a trigram which is available with principle of moderation. If this line changes to feminine and acts according to what is righteous, the hexagram will become Gen: to keep still (52), signifying to move whenever it needs to move and to stop whenever it needs to stop, i.e. to act with the timing.

Line 3 stays at its right position, i.e. it acts righteously, and at the position for marching upward (from the bottom trigram to the upper trigram); however it is ridden over by line 4. It performs like a leader of civilians eager and capable of carrying out the reform, but he encounters resistance from the courtier who possesses the vested interest. There will be some minor regrets but no big calamity, as once the reform is done, i.e. line 6 changes to the feminine, stays at its right position and acts righteously, the hexagram will become Sheng: to rise (46), wherein virtuous persons are recognized and promoted accordingly. Thus, line 3 removes the father’s Gu; some minor regrets, (but) no big fault (or calamity). Should this line change its mandate and become the feminine, the hexagram would become Meng: ignorance (4), wherein the ignorant people need to be enlightened.
(to be continued)

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[lsdavis]

The name of Gu's flipside hexagram, Sui, although well translated as “following,” has important connections to concepts of sacrificial meat, as it shares a component with “bone marrow” (sui 髓). Kunst also cites the connection on page 17.3 of his research notes. He sees a piece of rotting sacrificial meat left to attract worms used in subsequent divination. The Shuowen dictionary gives us a view into the web of associated meanings, from meat that has been cut open, to falling down—thus offering to “what is below” (the earth)—, to spoiled meat: and these are all themes clearly related to the content of the hexagram pair #17/18. The mountain we see an important sacrifice taking place in the top line of Following probably is an expression of the mountain trigram of Gu hexagram.

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,

考 (kao3) 妣 (bi3) is an ancient and formal expression in Chinese for the deceased father and mother.

Many texts of Zhou Yi can be, and are, interpreted into various and different meanings. The point is whether the reader can catch what its text intends to tell us and why it told us all those through the interpretations....[/url]

Hi, Tuck:

I understand your point and that the yours is the most widely accepted interpretation.
If I´m not wrong you proceed so:

• you choose one among different valid meanings
• you try to catcht what the text intends to tell
• you look for the reason why commentaries interprete it as they do

But what happens if you find different meanings all valid, all with the appearance of catching the intention of the text, and all compliant in essence with later commentaries?

You read 考kao3 as deceased father, which is important because at the begining we dont´t know if the father is alive, although later, seeing the character 考 kao3 we would have the feeling that is dead.

But why the more accurate translation of 考kao3 has to be decesaed father when to examine, to investigate the causes, is also valid, makes sense and has no conflict with the small image?

Looking in a dictionary for 考kao3 out of more than 20 lines, I observed only two lines devoted to the sense of deceased father, all the other for the sense of examination. Schuessler doesn´t mention decesaed father among the meanings of 考kao3 in old chinese.


Even more, I believe that TO EXAMINE is also compliant with the confucian point of view: If, for filial piety, is a must for the son to help his father to walk or to eat when the father is unable to do it for his own, I believe that it´s also a must of filial piety to revise or to rectify wrong influences received from the father that he will not can do himself in the present neither in the future.

The only manner that have the decesased father to fix his own mistakes in relation with his son is with the help of his son. But if the son for false belief of loyalty let the problems unsolved, the evil influence will affect his own sons, whithout making any favor to the memory of the deceased father.

Yours,


Charly

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Charly,

考Kao3 of 18.1 is commonly annotated as ‘the deceased father’ in most of Chinese writings, since it is linked up with ‘the deceased father’ by the light of nature while it appears together with the father and Gu (蠱) as the context. This doesn’t mean that it can’t be annotated as ‘to examine’, but ‘the deceased father’ is better and more pertinent one if Gu is regarded as something bad and harmful which has existed for long, like that which is left over from the parents, i.e. the last generation.

Hex 18 does examine before action. The hexagram text states: Three days before Jia (i.e. to judiciously investigate the cause before action is taken), and three days after Jia (i.e. to deliberately evaluate the effects after the action). 17.4 (i.e. 3 steps before hex 18) advises ‘not to follow the vested interest (17.3) but the right one (17.5), while 18.3 encounters resistance (18.4) but advises: (to keep on reforming) some minor regrets but no big calamity (according to the commentary on the small image, no big calamity signifies no calamity at last), as once 18.6 is reformed and changes to the feminine (i.e. 18.6 stays at its right position and acts righteously), the hexagram will become Sheng: to rise (46), wherein virtuous persons are recognized and promoted accordingly.

The interpretation of the I Ching is not only a translation of the text but also expresses its true significance or the philosophy behind it. For example, we have to see 18.5, the king, i.e. the one who has power, while we interpret the removal of the mother’s Gu of 18.2. And 18.5 has to make use of 18.2 who possesses reputation, while the king is involved in removing the long-standing Gu. But why does 18.4 tolerate the long-standing Gu and why doesn’t 18.6 get involved any longer?

Line 4 tolerates the father’s Gu, i.e. a person who occupies the high-ranking post and possesses vested interests, keeps flattering those above like its representing the inner bottom trigram Dui (joy, the marsh) catering to the king, line 5, but ignores and tolerates the long-standing malpractice as line 4 rides over the masculine line 3 and correlates with the feminine line 1 which possesses the same malpractice as line 5 (i.e. a feminine line doesn't stay at its right position). To go forth (in pleasing the king, and) resentment will appear. The hexagram that forms after this line is activated accordingly, is Ding: to innovate (50), of which the 4th line is: the legs of Ding are bent; the courtier’s delicious food is overturned, the cauldron’s body is wet; it is ominous, signifying that a person is incapable but occupies an important post; he can’t bear the heavy load; thus he ruins the job and the full cauldron of delicious food is overturned, spills on him and defiles his clothes, i.e. he incurs humiliation.

Line 5 removes the father’s Gu by making use of reputation. To make use of reputation means to use one’s prestige and the other person’s capability to carry out the job. The reform involves both line 5, the king, and line 2. Usually it is not appropriate for a king to do reforms in person, especially self-reform is also involved. As it correlates with the masculine line 2 which is rigid and moderate as well as at the position full of reputation, line 5 can assign it to take charge of removing long-standing malpractices. In this case it can be flexible with both conciliation and hard line, and will have more room for the reform as well as a better chance to succeed. (According to Xi Ci Zhuan, Chapter 9, line 2 is full of reputation, as line 2, the domestic official, always exerts himself in order that one day he can be lifted to a higher post, especially it is at a position in correlation with line 5, the king.)

The reform job is about to be accomplished, the word of Gu and the long-standing malpractice disappears; one claims no credit for one's merit, retires and engages in self-cultivation to become gentle, cultured, decent and elegant. Thus, line 6 doesn’t serve either the king or the duke, (but) to engages in that which is noble and elegant. Position 6 is a place for the line to step down after it has experienced the peak of a hexagram. One has gone through all furious reform steps; to retire is worldly wise and plays safe.

Best regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,

考Kao3 of 18.1 is commonly annotated as ‘the deceased father’ in most of Chinese writings, since it is linked up with ‘the deceased father’ by the light of nature while it appears together with the father and Gu (蠱) as the context. This doesn’t mean that it can’t be annotated as ‘to examine’, but ‘the deceased father’ is better and more pertinent ...
... The interpretation of the I Ching is not only a translation of the text but also expresses its true significance or the philosophy behind it...

Hi Tuck:

I undestand your point. But I'm not sure if you understand the mine.

I believe that for practical uses there is little difference between THE DECEASED FATHER IS FREE FROM BLAME and TO EXAMINE IS NO WRONG.

In both cases, I believe, the son is fulfilling his duty of filial piety. Fixing the wrong influences the son is relieving the father from the responsibilities, the father would rest in peace and the children will not suffer.

If the wrong influences were not fixed, the son being identifyed with the wrong doing of the deceased father, the evil would fall over the children.

The proces is painful for the son, but the consequences are good. Only that the second translation points that the process will be based on investigation of the causes, revision of what have happened. And this attitude of the son would not cause harm to the deceased father.

I believe.

Yours,


Charly

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Charly,

As I said, the text can be, and are, widely interpreted. In my opinion, the deceased father is a better and pertinent translation for 考Kao3 of 18.1; examination has been completed in the hexagram text and action starts in 18.1.

Best regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,

As I said, the text can be, and are, widely interpreted. In my opinion, the deceased father is a better and pertinent translation for 考Kao3 of 18.1; examination has been completed in the hexagram text and action starts in 18.1.

Best regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

Hi, Tuck::

Do you say that in some places 考Kao3 is better translated as "deceased father" and in other for the context better as "examination"?

All the versions that I´ve tested bring "deceased father" for 18.1, maybe it have a long tradition.

Do you know any version with "examination"? Are that versions more "modernists"? Are not compliant with confucian philosophy?

Yours,

Charly

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Charly,

For your reference, following two 考kao3 can be translated as ‘to examine'.

10.6: 視履考祥，其旋元吉。 My interpretation is: To review Lu (carry-out) and to assess (whether it is) fortune; free revolution is greatly auspicious.
A person must be pragmatic and without undesired ambition, do what he can, prudently and with dread. After having gone through ordeals, he reflects over what have been done and to assesses them for better or worse; it is greatly auspicious if he can do this freely like the revolving door, i.e. without any remorse or resentment.

24.5, the commentary on the small image: 敦復旡悔，中以自考也。 Honest & reliable Fu (return) has no regret, (due to) self reflection by means of the principle of moderation.
24.5 stays at the masculine position and possesses the principle of moderation; even though it has no link to line 1 (masculinity, i.e. goodness), its intent of returning to masculinity has been accumulated up to the peak of a hexagram development; since all that has been done so far was aimed at returning to goodness, these acts won’t lead to calamity; hence no regret.

I don’t know whether there is any Chinese writing taking 考kao3 of 18.1 for examination. In my opinion, to translate 考kao3 as the deceased father isn’t a matter of tradition or modern but rather a definition on the Gu of the father at the right beginning


Also for your reference, the following考kao3 is translated as the deceased father.

Hex 6, the commentary on the big image: 雷出地奮，豫。先王以作樂崇德，殷薦之上帝，以配祖考。The thunder roaring and the earth being inspired; Yu. The late king composed the music to revere virtue, (performed it while) paying splendorous tribute to heaven and offering sacrifice to his ancestors.

Regards
Tuck
www.iching123.com

 

[charly]

...
I don’t know whether there is any Chinese writing taking 考kao3 of 18.1 for examination. In my opinion, to translate 考kao3 as the deceased father isn’t a matter of tradition or modern but rather a definition on the Gu of the father at the right beginning...

Hi, Tuck:

I apologize if I'm abusing of your patience. I undestand that your point of view is that being "deceased father" the better translation of 考kao3 in 18.1, to proceed otherwise don't put you necessarily in conflict with tradition neither with confucian philosophy.

In the version of Gia Fu Feng offered by Frank Kegan 考kao3 is rendered FILIAL PIETY:

18.1...

TACKLE THE FATHER'S DECAY.
THE SON HAS FILIAL PIETY.
NO BLAME.
DANGER.
IN THE END LUCK.
​

From: http://www.stars-n-dice.com/gia-futext.html

Little difference in what matters although, I believe, different parsing, not fully according with syntax and maybe making a change of character.

Is that in reading chinese, a learned reader proceeds not by sequential order, character after character, but, as happens in western laguages, making a random scanning at different points, taking snapshots of characters/words with more impact and doing an hypothetical construction of the meaning before having read the whole text? (1)

Yours,

Charly

____________________________
(1) Something like this:

From: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/ir.html

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Charly,

As you might know, usually a single Chinese character (考kao3) possesses various and different meanings, and its significance becomes clear 1) after it appears with other characters as a phrase (考kao3 察cha2: to investigate, or 考kao3 妣bi3: the deceased parents), 2) according to the context, for instance, 18.1: to remove the father’s Gu; there is a son available; 考kao3 is free from calamity (fault or blame), 考kao3 of which is further explained in the commentary on the small image as 承cheng2 (to inherit) 考kao3 (the deceased father), 3) according to some clue, for instance, 幹gan4 (to do, to fight on, or to kill) of 幹父之蠱: to remove the father’s Gu, starting from position 1 (up to position 5; except for position 4, it changes to ‘to tolerate’) signifies the removal action is taken from the right beginning, i.e. the so-called examination has been completed beforehand and in the hexagram text, 4) according to the comma position, or …………. sometimes even according to the story or the meaning behind the character.

As to the ancient Chinese writing, its sentence is very often composed of several independent characters, and arranged according to the common, or the poetic (somewhat uncommon), or ……. syntax. Although many versions of interpretation (into an easier understood form) have therefore existed, the true significance can be still traced out through the context.

The text of Zhou Yi is one of the most complex (ancient) writings to understand since 1) sometimes the extended meaning of a character or a phase is the one to be referred to, 2) many of its sentences aren’t in common syntax, and 3) the worse is the subjects of those sentences are disconnected.

In studying the original I Ching (in Chinese), there are many ways to analyze the text in order to reach its true significance. From the perspective of conscientiously and carefully interpreting the I Ching and in my opinion, there are several fundamental rules to follow: 1) to view a hexagram (i.e. the hexagram text together with the texts of six lines) under one era or world given by its name 2) to paraphrase the text, or prove the interpretation, according to the image, the line character and relationship, the layout of a hexagram (sometimes from its wording and related characters), the sequence, ……., i.e. the interpretation must be something accountable, and 3) the interpretation must be able to clearly deliver a massage of what the text intends to tell and why.

As I said, the text can be, and are, widely interpreted; some are better and pertinent. Actually and for example, due to the fact of many interpretation versions of Chinese ancient classics available, the ones of 朱熹 (Zhu Xi) was regarded as the standard one for the imperial examination after the Yuan dynasty (partially because one of his important aspects is to be loyal to the king). Zhu Xi is a great scholar but his interpretation of the I Ching text involving line 5, the king, usually becomes unrealistic. I have been always trying to do my study based on the abovementioned rules and I am getting my own one.

In my opinion, hex 18 is definitely not a subject of tackling something of the parents in person but left over from the parents; filial piety can be referred to if it is from the viewpoint of avoiding hurting those who has engaged in those bad things. In my opinion, after hexagram 17 ends up, people should stop following any longer. In hex 18, 1) Gu is something bad and long, which must be removed and is being removed. 2) Gu isn’t that which belongs to other person but us, like we inheriting from our parents. 3) The task can progress with auspiciousness at end if we can avoid hurting those who have engaged in Gu. Afterward we can move to hex 19: Lin (to approach), the status will be like the sovereign descending to the world after having succeeded in reforming.

Also for your information, 18.5: to remove the father’s Gu by making use of reputation, the commentary on the small image: 承cheng2 以德也, to inherit (the Gu) with virtue. The virtue signifies: 18.5, the king who inherits the undertakings, the reputation and …… from his father, the late king, must also take on the responsibility of removing the Gu left over by his father.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[charly]

...
As I said, the text can be, and are, widely interpreted; some are better and pertinent...

Also for your information, 18.5: to remove the father’s Gu by making use of reputation, the commentary on the small image: 承cheng2 以德也, to inherit (the Gu) with virtue. The virtue signifies: 18.5, the king who inherits the undertakings, the reputation and …… from his father, the late king, must also take on the responsibility of removing the Gu left over by his father.
...

Hi, Tuck:

Lasts days I recovered my Wu Jing Nuan from a friend. Here, in 18.1, the discordant translation that I was finding:

[Line 1rst.]
The business of the father's, poisoned.
Have the son examine (it).
No error.

[Xiao Xiang]
The afairs of the father, poisoned. The intention is to undertake an examination.

Wu Jing Nuan: Yi Jing.
Pages 99 and 234.
[Underlined, mine]

An he did believe that there were ideologial consequences:

In Chinse society, governed by a paternalistic system, a son examining the business of the father represents an important shift of authority. By examining your father's defects, you are creating the possibility of change for yourself and family.

Wu Jing Nuan: Yi Jing.
Page 101.
[Underlined, mine]

Even so, I believe, not conflictive with FILIAL PIETY (as translated by Gia Gu Feng).

Yours,


Charly

 

[tuckchang]

Hi Charly,

18.1 removes / tackles / … the Gu which it inherits from the deceased father.
18.5, the king, does not only inherit the undertakings of his father but also takes on the responsibility of removing / tackling / … the Gu left over from his deceased father, which signifies virtue.

To me, the examination has been completed in the hexagram text. I am very interested in knowing how Wu Jing Nuan interprets ‘three days before Jia (i.e. the beginning, three days after Jia’.

Quote:
[Line 1rst.]
The business of the father's, poisoned.
Have the son examine (it).
No error.
[Xiao Xiang]
The afairs of the father, poisoned. The intention is to undertake an examination.
Unquote

I am also very interested in knowing how Wu Jing Nuan translates 幹gang4 of 幹父之蠱. To me, hex 18 is a subject of removing / tackling / … the Gu left over from the deceased parents. It sounds to me that the translation of 18.1 by Wu Jing Nuan takes no other action except for examination. Please kindly tell me what actions are taken from line 2 to 5 in the translation of Wu Jing Nuan.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
www.iching123.com

 

[charly]

...
I am also very interested in knowing how Wu Jing Nuan translates 幹gang4 of 幹父之蠱. To me, hex 18 is a subject of removing / tackling / … the Gu left over from the deceased parents. It sounds to me that the translation of 18.1 by Wu Jing Nuan takes no other action except for examination. Please kindly tell me what actions are taken from line 2 to 5 in the translation of Wu Jing Nuan.
...

Hi, Tuck:

I will post it assap. I have not the book in my office.

Time ago Dr. Wu was availabe in pdf through P2P services, maybe you can get a copy. He would not get upset. (1)

Yours,

Charly

P.D.
Now I'm aware that Tom posted that GU can be understood as SEDUCTION / BEWITCHING, maybe a LOVE PHILTER.

Hypnotic Poison蠱媚奇葩紅毒女性香水是由Dior迪奧公司推出的一款東方香草調的女性香水，這款香水已于1998.年上市，香水的調香師是Annick Menardo。
From: http://big5.china.com/gate/big5/myscent.blog.china.com/201002/5920261.html

Ch.

______________________________
(1) Try here, you would read the book online, even maybe get a copy:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23838076/Yi-Jing-Wu-Jing-Nuan#

 

[ginnie]

Line 2 removes the mother’s Gu; it doesn’t permit persistence. The malpractice of the mother can refer to that which can’t be terminated drastically like that of the father.

Mother and the womanish is concerned with our fears and things we cannot do.

All the simple fears may turn into phobias if there is no will to overcome them. We cannot be free of such fears overnight.

 

[ginnie]

'Father' stood for the authority figure, the one who laid down the law, the one who punished the children. The traditional father could be overbearing and even cruel and get away with it. For who could stop a full-grown man in his own house?

All the children of such fathers (and sometimes mothers were just as overbearing) must come to terms with this, the abuse of power and authority.

 

[ginnie]

Line 4 tolerates the father’s Gu ... keeps flattering those above ... signifying that a person is incapable but occupies an important post

The person is, I think, capable, but has no associates to help in the task of removing the poison. Therefore it becomes important to re-image or re-frame the situation. Through inspiration and creativity there can be reform.

Line 5 removes the father’s Gu by making use of reputation.

May signify going home to deliver the eulogy at father's funeral.

In any case, we are advised to use praise to rectify the corruption. Don't people respond better to praise and appreciation? Whereas when we condemn another person, nothing changes.

 

[ginnie]

I don’t know whether there is any Chinese writing taking 考kao3 of 18.1 for examination. In my opinion, to translate 考kao3 as the deceased father isn’t a matter of tradition or modern but rather a definition on the Gu of the father at the right beginning

Doesn't this line come up when the issue is the making of a legal will, which involves examination of the papers of the previous generation? Please note that 18.1 > 26. And 26 often has to do with the conservation of great resources and therefore inheritance.

The son (or a daughter) may need to go home to help settle the affairs of the family. These days women also study accountancy and the law and so it may be a daughter who handles these affairs of the father (or mother).

I know certain words are translated as 'father' or 'mother,' but isn't it true that a mother can be more like a father is supposed to be? And a father can be more like a mother is supposed to be? Maybe this is more true nowadays than in ancient China.

 

[ginnie]

In my opinion, hex 18 is definitely not a subject of tackling something of the parents in person but left over from the parents ... In hex 18, 1) Gu is something bad and long, which must be removed and is being removed. 2) Gu isn’t that which belongs to other person but us, like we inheriting from our parents. 3) The task can progress with auspiciousness at end if we can avoid hurting those who have engaged in Gu.

Sometimes h 18 refers to fixing something that is broken; like the computer or another piece of equipment.

Sometimes h 18 refers to a long-standing problem in a marriage or other relationship.

Quite often H 18 refers to the illnesses brought on by bad habits of long duration.

Sometimes h 18 refers to the corruptions that arise in all who do business for a profit.

That something is not working well is clear enough. That something needs fixing or repairing is also clear enough.

Isn't it brilliant that it was understood so long ago that all parents damage their children and that this damage needs to be undone? Amazingly wise. The Western world did not catch up until many millenia later. Now we say: "All families are dysfunctional. It is only a matter of degree."