Hexagram 44

[sylvie]

What about when 44's strong sexual woman happens to be me?

So things have been going like gangbusters between me and my new sweetie... with a couple of exceptions, the most recent of which was extremely painful for me. Last night, he told me that sexually, he wasn't sure that we were compatible, because I seem too "masculine" to him. My sex drive is generally stronger than his, and my approach to sex is more driven, more experimental, yes, more stereotypically masculine, and it seems that he is feeling emasculated by that. Ouf. (I'd also add that although his comment pretty much felt like a body blow to the solar plexus for me, it was followed by a wonderful conversation, where we somehow managed my rather overwhelming sense of hurt at that moment and stayed emotionally connected. I've been awed by our ability to navigate these kinds of things together.)

The other potential issue is that I want to have kids, and he's not at all sure that he does. That's pretty non-negotiable for me. This morning, as I was trying to recover from our conversation last night, I was feeling kind of overwhelmed by the combination of the two things. So I asked the Yi, "How will my sweetie and I be able to deal with our differences, particularly around sex and kids?" Yi responded with 44.2,5 to 56.

Initially, I was inclined to take this as saying that the relationship, wonderful as it is, is not going to be long-lasting, it'll be an affair and lead to more traveling. But I'm not so sure now that I had it right at all. The two moving lines are images of fertility. And of course, 44 is fundamentally about a woman who is strong sexually -- rather apropos for the moment. And I'm not sure that I understand what its take on such a woman is. Certainly, there's the sense of danger, but I'm not sure how much that sense is really applying here. Especially, of course, since the strong sexual woman here happens to be me -- and I'm not inclined to see myself as dangerous to myself, even if my sweetie is currently perceiving me as dangerous to him.

44 seems liike a particularly complex and multi-layered hexagram. There has been some great discussion of it here in the past, and I was hoping I could get some help sorting it out in my situation.

Thanks,

Sylvie

 

[jesed]

Hi Silvie

Just in case the comment could be useful


What a wonderful relation you have....

How to be able?... Meeting one to each other in the middle of the way (negotiation¡¡¡¡¡)

To achieve that, bot of you need to avoid act like "owners" of the realtion, but act with the gentleness of a stranger in a new land

I would suggest you, for mor clarity, this dialogue:
a) General Diagnosis of the relation
b) My position within the relation
c) His position within the relation

That could give you more insight to achieve a great negotiation.

44 has 2 levels...in one, is a dangerous encountering... but if the encountering is "in the middle of the way", is the meeting of 2 people destinated to be together, just like the fertile marriage of Sun and Moon

Very nice metaphora, don't you think?

Best wishes

 

[bradford]

Silvie
I would go with your first take on this and not commit to anything lasting,
and not pretend you are making a commitment either.
Just let it be what it is and be ready to move on.
The fertility that's being spoken about here, in both of the lines you drew,
is guarded for the sake of a more fruitful time.
You want some distance of your own, like he seems to be trying to get. Retreat is the transitionnal hexagram here, the one you go to when line 2 changes.

 

[jesed]

Hi Bradford

How do you relate this answer ("How to be able to deal with our diferences" 44>56) with the previous answer ("image of the relation" 2 unchanging)?

Thanks

 

[bradford]

Hi Jesed-
I hadn't seen the other thread with 02 and its question.
Just went back and read it.
It is kind of a passive thing for such a dynamic process
as a relationship, go with the flow, live and learn, etc.
If there are no goals here I spoze that's OK. But a boat
that goes with the flow can't be steered - you need to be
under power or sail for the rudder to work. (Flow is the
name of this Hexagram in the Mawangdui text, btw).
I suspect Sylvie wants to get somewhere more specific
with this.

 

[sylvie]

Thanks, Bradford and Jesed. I've just come from another remarkable conversation with him, which naturally influences the way I'm inclined to read it. Actually, fertility waiting for the right moment seems like not a bad thing for us right now -- I'm going to be leaving town for at least three months, and maybe longer. So it's not time now to be making any big commitments, and I definitely think continuing to be in "wait and see" mode sounds right. But it seems to me that given the explicitly sexual context of the question, I'm inclined to read 44 as generally saying, "You're dealing together with strong female sexual energy, and trying to figure out what to do with it."

Hmm... what I just said now makes something else click together for me. "Traveling"... that's exactly what I'm going to be doing. Perhaps Yi is pointing out that part of the dynamic between us about this has to do with my leaving. In fact, earlier that day we'd been discussing that, and he had said something about how he was feeling a certain kind of separation anxiety. So wounding me was a way of testing our connection. Being able to wound me, after all, is a powerful position to be in, and the desire to do so (unconsciously, of course) seems like a pretty reasonable kind of reaction to that anxiety.

Thanks for your suggestions, Jesed, about how to proceed with a conversation with the Yi about the relationship overall. I'll probably take you up on the suggestion at some point -- and tell you about it when I do! But for now, this question still feels rich to me, to keep pondering on.

Sylvie

 

[sylvie]

By the way, Bradford, I'm not dismissing the warning in your interpretation of both those readings. The way I tend to work with the Yi is to let hte images work on me over time, and your thoughts are definitely part of what will work on me. Right at this moment, given our ability to work with this softly together, those warnings don't feel pressing, but I've definitely heard -- and appreciated -- what you've said.

 

[sylvie]

Actually, the more I think about this reading, the more totally appropriate it seems for the question. The question was how can we deal with our differences around strong female sexual energy and the desire to have kids, and it was coming in the context of my traveling soon. The answer has those exact elements in it. And certainly, I've learned form it already, because I hadn't previously identified the role that our separation anxiety is playing in it.

It's interesting to me that the fertility images come in the moving lines, and I'm not sure I've fully grasped the significance of those particular moving lines yet. Bradford, could you say more about why they are images of fertility delayed?

Thanks,

Sylvie

 

[bradford]

Sylvie-
Although the Yi can sometimes be understood literally, the Hexagram name and text are usually metaphors or analogies. Hex 44 is not about strong women or potent female sexual energy. It's about being undone by distraction, or rather, avoiding being undone by distraction, resisting temptation to settle too soon for too little.
Some of the lines depict not giving in to urges. In line two, you have guests, but you do not feed them your pet fish, even though you could. You are saving that for a more special occasion. In line 5 your melons remain in the cellar, wrapped in leaves, aging slowly. It's not nearly as heavenly to slice them open too soon.

 

[bruce_g]

Sexual attraction is at the core of creativity and the potential beginning of deeper relationships. True, there are dangers associated with the temptations of 44, but without it, where would you be now?

 

[bradford]

Bruce
Indeed it is, but it's Not the subject of the Hexagram.
It's the Object. The metaphor is used for what should be
obvious reasons. Nothing distracts us from higher purpose
like seduction. Entropy has no greater friend.
The reason that we seize so hastily on sexuality as the subject
of this Gua, especially women who are aching to feel empowered
in their sexuality, lies elsewhere. It doesn't fit the text at all.
A study of the lines will not show a single instance of someone working
from this powerful core of creativity. They are all doing what they can
just to stay out of trouble and keep entropy from getting the upper hand.
This is why the sovereign has to repeat his commands. They are undone
by the wind under heaven.

 

[bruce_g]

Hi Brad,

Yes, I’m aware that this is how you translate and interpret this hexagram. It’s also how I used to interpret it. There are some women, no doubt, who use 44 to fortify their empowerment, and I believe that position also misses the boat. However, I link 44 directly to creativity, both in reproduction, artistry, or any creative endeavor. Part of this is due to the trigrams, wherein the direction of wind moves upward toward heaven, and partly from observing closely personal dynamics during the time of receiving 44: There is always creative potential surrounding the time of 44 .

IE: An artist is tempted to leave his wife due to a seductive woman. Though he chooses to follow the high road and remain faithful to his wife, the temptation of the harlot inspires him to paint or write with renewed passion. (Fish in the tank; does not further guests.) This way he also remains faithful to his art.

I agree that it brings danger of entropy from higher callings, but for some there exists no higher calling when nature’s clock is ticking; and that's not limited to humans. It's basic birds and bees.

Sorry, but we disagree on this one.

 

[bradford]

Hi Brad,
Sorry, but we disagree on this one.

Fine...

Side note-
Some of you know that the Mawangdui Yijing manuscript has different names for about half of the hexagrams. Sometimes this helps us to understand the broader meanings of the diagrams. The name for 44 is a different character, but is also pronounced Gou3. It means "Bitch", with the full range of meanings that the word carries in English - from female dog to a term of contempt. As a verb it means to "hound" someone.

 

[bruce_g]

I have no problem with 44 as "bitch", especially as in the literal dog sense. As an aside, I've also known some bitchy men.

View attachment 54

 

[nicky_p]

People's reaction, both male and female, to hexagram 44 intrigues me. It is, as with the women involved it seems, simultaneuosly hated and loved in one foul swoop. That a woman can illicit such longings, and desires in a man without actually having done anything on purpose draws admiration for her and hatred that she can betray the weakness in him - that she can tempt him into his impurest form. And yet the natural progession of the species is dependant upon her - without her there would be no life.

'It is good to be without vices, it is not good to be without temptations' - Walter Bagehot

Hi Bruce,

Smooth! I think it would only work on a handfull of women though

 

[bruce_g]

Hi Bruce,

Smooth! I think it would only work on a handfull of women though

Thanks, Nicky. I must not be pronouncing it correctly though, cuz none want to see my itching.

 

[bruce_g]

When I was a young sailor, I bargained with a young prostitute in Puerto Rico. We went to her room and I gave her the payment. She turned and kneeled at a tiny altar there in her room, and looking up to a hanging Jesus, thanked God for my business. Forty three years later, I’m still awed by that.

 

[heylise]

Usually I agree wholeheartedly with Brad. I admire your takes on the hexagrams. But now I disagree too. Not with you saying what hex. 44 "is", but with what it "is not".

My own experience with 44 is, that it can be a guide to big creativity, in a very positive way. Many times it had to do with art, but also other times with sexuality. Of course it can be a warning, but just as often it can be full of promise. Very negative - and very positive.

Line 2 is not necessarily negative, but it does say, making a tight connection too soon can be wrong. Leave room, let things develop, grant them their own pace and timing. Don't try to act too much on it (33).

Line 5 can also be very positive. There is great potential, treat it very carefully and respectfully. The two lines, 2 and 5, have a lot in common. But in line 2 you have to hold back, in line 5 give your care and attention. Make it grow into the beautiful creation it can be. It has the potential, but it needs your fostering.

This does not mean, that I think you should absolutely go on with this relation, it is just the other side of 44. I think you know very well, what to make of the reading, once you have enough information. But the information should be complete, not one-sided.

LiSe

 

[jesed]

Hi

In the way I see it.. the images, metaphoras and text of the answer has to be match with the question/issue.

In this case, elizabeth wasn't asking for a description of her relation; she didn't ask the qualification of the relation (is a good relation? is a bad relation? is a long-time relation? is just an adventure?)...

She was asking for an advice about how to deal with some diferences... my take is that the answer in this time was answer that concrete question: deal with that by a meeting half of the way (negotiation)

I find very ilustrative your interpretations of 44 in general... but applying to the concrete issue, I still think the point is to negotiate the diferences

Best wishes

 

[katharsys]

absence makes the heart grow fonder =D perhaps your trip will make him realize he misses you a lot

 

[bradford]

Sorry guys-
If passion or eros was any kind of strength or power in 44, anything of use
(ref Wu Yong), I would expect, even demand to see the Ba Gua "Dui"
somewhere, anywhere, in the figure, as a Zhen, Hui or Ti Gua.
It's not there - there's just the vacillation and slipperiness of Sun (Xun).
The only places in the Gua where passion has been pursued in the lines
are line three (where the subject gets his ass shredded by our Zhuang Nu)
and line 6 (where the subject behaves literally like a butt head).
This one's about restraint, like the Tuan Zhuan says, until the timing is better.
Defiantly yours,
b

 

[jesed]

44 has 2 levels...in one, is a dangerous encountering... but if the encountering is "in the middle of the way", is the meeting of 2 people destinated to be together, just like the fertile marriage of Sun and Moon

Very nice metaphora, don't you think?

Dear Bradford

Nice you quoted the Tuan Zhuan, because the Tuan Zhuan reflects what I was talking about. Altough the Tua Zhuan used the metaphora of the encounter of Heaven and Earth; and I used the metaphora of the marriage of Sun and Moon.. it is the same.

It is common, when teaching about this hexagram, that new adepts ask: how can be the image of Heaven-Earth's encounter a propper image for such a negative and temptational hexagram?

The answer is simple: any new encounter has a little bit of unexpectative, temptation and chance... (44 is also something that comes suddenly in our Path).

This encounter would be good? would be dangerous?.. depends: if there is equality -meeting in the middle of the Way- the encounter would be good, just like when Heaven (and) earth encounter each other (And) the varieties of beings join in the composition using your own translation of the Tuan Zhuan


Since the question was "how to deal with our difeences"... one can say: being like the Heaven and Earth when they encounter one to each other (metting in the middle of teh Way)

Best wishes

 

[bradford]

I have a system for converting between Tarot and Yijing.
For the Forty Gua which correspond to the Forty Spot Cards
I use the Upper Trigram for the Suit and the lower for the
Number. Heaven above would the be Air or Swords. Wind below,
being the most Mercurial in nature, would be Eights.
Wind under Heaven, then, would be the Eight of Swords.
Here is how the powerful troublesome woman is restrained
in that system

 

[jesed]

Hi Bradford

One thought I had after read your last post:

How to deal with our diferences? restrain the troublesome diferences.


How about that?

If you can agree, maybe that is no too far from meeting in the middle of the way

Best wishes

 

[bruce_g]

Brad,

Passion and Eros are only byproducts of what I’ve been talking about. To see this, though, you have to escape from the capsule of exclusively human application, part of which is solely made of words.

Simply: Why does nature make flowers so brightly colored?

The slut!
View attachment 59

 

[heylise]

Wow! Gives me a very interesting new view on my garden. All those pretty sluts around. Dancing in the wind, brilliant in the sun. Don't grab the slut. Makes sense, she will be pretty for a long time, if you don't pluck her.

LiSe

 

[bradford]

I sometimes imagine that we had the roots, and the plants had the legs and sharp knives and They went around cutting off Our genitalia in attempts to seduce each other.
Because of this I like leaving the flowers on the plants.

 

[nicky_p]

Hi Brad,

That has left me with a truly disturbing mental image

I don't think I'll ever be able to look at a bouquet of flowers in the same light again!

 

[laylab]

Hi Brad,
However, I link 44 directly to creativity, both in reproduction, artistry, or any creative endeavor. Part of this is due to the trigrams, wherein the direction of wind moves upward toward heaven, and partly from observing closely personal dynamics during the time of receiving 44: There is always creative potential surrounding the time of 44 .
QUOTE]

This is correct. As I stated elsewhere I got Hex 44.1 when asking about intentions and motivations.

It lead to Hex 1 Creative Power

and there is definately a HELL OF ALOT creative power going on in my life (not his) at the moment.

 

[lightofreason]

the full spectrum of 44 is derived using XOR and is summarised in the line meaning section of:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x111110.html

The overall focus on persusation (And so including seduction) is grounded in an infrastructure described by analogy to 43 and ITS focus on 'spreading the word' aka 'spreading the seed' or 'spreading cuttings' etc

Chris.