Hi, I am new had a reading 23 to 19

[laterisr]

Hi, I am new to all this and been trying to figure out how to read it. I had a falling out with a friend about a month ago and I asked the oracle if I should contact him. It gave me Hex 23 with changing lines 1,2 and 9 and relating hexagram 19.
At first I thought it meant that we are meant to be split apart but is it saying we are split apart right now? I don't know how to read the changing lines. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks so much.

 

[steve]

I asked the oracle if I should contact him.

Hi the oracle seems to be saying that currently you are split, but 23.2 is suggesting that you should make a approach but with extreme caution it obvious that it is a sensitive issue

Hex 19 Approach seems to confirm line 2 that this situation probably shouldnt stay as it is

All the Best
Steve

 

[martin]

.. but nonetheless should we take any change lightly after we have consulted the I Ching about it? By this very act we have elevated the trivial to a matter of potential dire result, because we have become engaged with the matter on another plane.

No no. On 'other planes' things are generally taken lightly, very lightly, and with humour. No 'heavy' consequences are to be expected when we consciously - through an oracle for instance - try to make contact with those planes. On the contrary.

If there is any heaviness you can be quite sure that you are not in contact with another (subtler) plane but with one of the gods that humanity has invented. Or one of their deceased priests perhaps. Or, most probably, with your own sadomasochistic phantasies.
Wrong number, put down the phone and try again.

 

[martin]

The art of divining is indeed to pick up on the signs all around us. When you get good at this it is like floating through the day on a leaf. The leaf is tossed and turned on the slightest of breezes.

Your innate and natural decision-making is confirmed easily and quickly by outside signs. You receive warnings to dangerous situations.

When you become attuned to it properly it will lose all this sense of heaviness you get with it now. It will become like a dance with nature. You will talk to the stars. You will understand the birds and insects.

This is what you wrote in another thread, right? (I liked it a lot)
What happened to you meanwhile?

 

[diamanda]

The answer is very clear.

There's nothing you can do.
Just wait for line 6 of hexagram 23.

Something (or most likely someone...) has got in between,
and is spreading slander, intrigue, and lowly digging out
every basis out of a relationship. There is sadly absolutely
nothing you can do. The scenario has to be played out. The
result promises some success - the nasty people will fall into
their own trap in the end.
"A law of nature is at work here. Evil is not destructive to the
good alone but inevitably destroys itself as well."
"The superior man again attains influence".

However, a word of caution... in my experience, 19, although
it does contain a lot of good, is quite an ominous answer. It's
an evil in disguise. It's something which so much looks as a
blessing, but it does contain already in it the seed of future
decay - and quite soon as well... I never had great results when
i got 19 as an answer. It calls for extreme caution. Even if the
'inferior people' seem to have gone away, and seem to have been
defeated, they actually seem to still spring back into the scene
and will wreak havoc again, and quite soon. Either them, or there
is a very fundamental flaw in the whole story, that cannot be
eliminated so easily.

It's really annoying to see that a situation is not in one's hands...
I for one really hate such occasions, when the outcome is so not
in my hands! But there you go... Ideally there would be no weak
and silly people on this planet, but what can we do, they exist...
In your case, it so much sounds like that kind of people are,
unfortunately, in control of the situation.

Perhaps ask another question - is it worth pursuing that friendship still...?

 

[laterisr]

Perhaps ask another question - is it worth pursuing that friendship still...?

How do you get gossip out of the 23.1,2,6>19. Asking for learning purposes.

I asked as you advised but like I have said I don't know what to quite do with the answers. I asked two ways because pursuing and energy seemed 2 different things to me but it may be the same.
Is it worth it to invest anymore energy into this friendship? 2.3>15

Is it worth it to pursue this friendship? 36.1,3>2

I went to website to read the meanings, strange cuz the 2 seems to speak of devotion and 36 of persevering through darkness but the changing lines seem to say it is not good to do that? Am I right?

 

[martin]

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here. I didn't object to your interpretation of 23>19 (I didn't say that that interpretation was 'too heavy') but to what you wrote about engaging another plane: "By this very act we have elevated the trivial to a matter of potential dire result, because we have become engaged with the matter on another plane."
When subtler planes get involved the effect is that burdens become lighter, not heavier. There is more space, less obsession, problems become more transparant, knots are untied, etcetera.

My take on 23>19 would be different though. I think the Yi doesn't give a direct answer to the question (should I contact him?). It only gives an image of the evolving situation and this says basically that the relationship will probably survive (line 6) any damage that has been done to it or will still be done to it. I think it also says that it is important to try to get to the heart, the core (23) of the matter. The questioner writes that there was a 'falling out'. Why, about what exactly, what was the problem?

If the question was about warfare one would first of all have to determine who is yin and who is yang. If you are yin, you will be able to hurt the enemy but you will not win, worse, you will be defeated in the end. However, if you are yang you will incur some losses but ultimately prevail and defeat the enemy.
So it depends ..

 

[diamanda]

"How do you get gossip out of the 23.1,2,6>19"

I took that from the Wilhelm translation. Change 1 mentions that
good people "are destroyed by slander and intrigue". If you think
about it it just makes perfect sense. 23 speaks of lowly people,
who knowingly attempt to overthrow someone/something good.
So, the best way known to mankind, to achieve that, is indeed
slander, lies, intrigue...

You are so very right regarding the question i suggested. I phrased
it wrong - the word 'pursue' is wrong in this context, as it does
denote 'spending energy'. It's quite an oxymoron. But in any case,
since you got two answers, this is what i think of them:

2.3>15
Be receptive, don't do anything energetic towards that relationship.
Wait. Look after your own business, with modesty. Take care of your
own life and tasks for now, quietly and modestly.

36.1,3>2
You are feeling deprived, but if you are to stay true to yourself and
your good principles and values, there seems to be no other choice.
You will feel hurt, and you need to protect yourself and your heart.
You are dealing with very dark and mean people. 2 - there is nothing
you can actually do to save the friendship.

I get the impression, from all the readings, that the situation is
indeed totally out of your hands. Nothing you say or do will make
any difference. On the contrary, if you try to get involved, they
(whoever 'they' are!) will try to destroy you too... Another impression
i get is that, the situation's outcome is still not very certain. Dark
people always do bring about their own downfall, however, there
seem to be so many factors involved, that the outcome of your
friendship is not certain. There is some hope, in 23:6, and in 19.
But although it does sound like some sort of victory, it doesn't sound
like a great happy ending. Sorry to have to say all this - i do hope im
wrong, and i do hope things turn out for the best!

 

[laterisr]

"How do you get gossip out of the 23.1,2,6>19"

I took that from the Wilhelm translation. Change 1 mentions that
good people "are destroyed by slander and intrigue". If you think
about it it just makes perfect sense. 23 speaks of lowly people,
who knowingly attempt to overthrow someone/something good.
So, the best way known to mankind, to achieve that, is indeed
slander, lies, intrigue...

You are so very right regarding the question i suggested. I phrased
it wrong - the word 'pursue' is wrong in this context, as it does
denote 'spending energy'. It's quite an oxymoron. But in any case,
since you got two answers, this is what i think of them:

2.3>15
Be receptive, don't do anything energetic towards that relationship.
Wait. Look after your own business, with modesty. Take care of your
own life and tasks for now, quietly and modestly.

36.1,3>2
You are feeling deprived, but if you are to stay true to yourself and
your good principles and values, there seems to be no other choice.
You will feel hurt, and you need to protect yourself and your heart.
You are dealing with very dark and mean people. 2 - there is nothing
you can actually do to save the friendship.

I get the impression, from all the readings, that the situation is
indeed totally out of your hands. Nothing you say or do will make
any difference. On the contrary, if you try to get involved, they
(whoever 'they' are!) will try to destroy you too... Another impression
i get is that, the situation's outcome is still not very certain. Dark
people always do bring about their own downfall, however, there
seem to be so many factors involved, that the outcome of your
friendship is not certain. There is some hope, in 23:6, and in 19.
But although it does sound like some sort of victory, it doesn't sound
like a great happy ending. Sorry to have to say all this - i do hope im
wrong, and i do hope things turn out for the best!

it's interesting the part about gossip because I have no idea if that is going on but had a weird gut feeling I was ignoring.

The difference I saw in pursuing was pursuing is action toward him whereas investing energy could be anything, trying to figure it all out ...planning etc...

To be honest I am so new to all this. I was checking things over at Ifate. I was messing with the Tarot and IChing. I noticed I was preferring the Iching tho it is really very simplistic over there compared with what you guys do. Anywa I finally decided to go searching for a deeping knowledge of the IChing and found this website. I am just now getting to reading Hillary's lessons and last night I asked a few more questions and really tried to concentrate on the image it was creating and what that might mean to me. I didn't reask questions or anything and left it at that. I might go back today and look at the questions again and answers and go for the image again. How do people usually do that? Does an answer to a question change over night if you haven't done anything to effect it to change? I suppose I would be getting into alot of philosophical issues but i have so many question.

I would like to know if I wanted to ask the IChing who could be doing the gossip, slander..etc..how would I do that? I mean if I suspect certain people and want to know if it is those people so I can distance myself how would I go about asking? I don't like the yes or no questions. I have such a hard time enough interpretting.

 

[martin]

You are interpreting according to different principles to myself.

On what basis are you going to decide whether you are yang or yin?

It is usually not difficult to identify yin and yang in a hexagram 23 situation. Yin is the (potential) overthrower, yang is in danger of being overthrown. Yang has a 'position' to defend.

Hexagram 23 with line 6 changing - no other changing lines, I think - came up during the presidential elections, when president Bush sought a second term. Some thought that this meant that Bush would lose to the Democratic 'overthrower' Kerry. But IMO it meant that Bush would win, because Bush is the yang line here, the one with a position to defend (the sitting president).
And indeed, he won.
But the smiley is for me, not for Bush. I prefered Kerry, lol.

In the situation that Laterisr asks about yang is probably the relationship with his friend, not one of the two persons involved. But there is not enough information (that's often the problem with questions in the Shared Readings forum) to be entirely sure. Perhaps Laterisr is (also) attacked?
And who or what is yin here? Is the friend also an 'overthrower' or not? Unclear.

 

[meng]

However, a word of caution... in my experience, 19, although
it does contain a lot of good, is quite an ominous answer. It's
an evil in disguise. It's something which so much looks as a
blessing, but it does contain already in it the seed of future
decay - and quite soon as well... I never had great results when
i got 19 as an answer. It calls for extreme caution. Even if the
'inferior people' seem to have gone away, and seem to have been
defeated, they actually seem to still spring back into the scene
and will wreak havoc again, and quite soon. Either them, or there
is a very fundamental flaw in the whole story, that cannot be
eliminated so easily.

I've also found this to be true. Not always, but something to be keenly watchful of during major decisions. In my own experiences it calls for taking charge, overseeing, taking responsibility, rather than wholly relying on what appears to be a stroke of great luck. By assuming responsibility future misfortune may be averted.

 

[meng]

How do you get gossip out of the 23.1,2,6>19. Asking for learning purposes.

I asked as you advised but like I have said I don't know what to quite do with the answers. I asked two ways because pursuing and energy seemed 2 different things to me but it may be the same.
Is it worth it to invest anymore energy into this friendship? 2.3>15

Is it worth it to pursue this friendship? 36.1,3>2

I went to website to read the meanings, strange cuz the 2 seems to speak of devotion and 36 of persevering through darkness but the changing lines seem to say it is not good to do that? Am I right?

Just a thought on line 1.

Line 1's 'the host which gossips' may be someone else who is hosting you, but it can also mean yourself as the host of all your parts - so your self talk may not be particularly supportive. In other words, you may be putting yourself down a lot about this, maybe blaming yourself? If so, you're better off to strip that away.

 

[laterisr]

What the argument was about has been asked a few times. First my friend is a guy, I am a girl. Not sure that makes a difference in the scheme of things. We have been friends for 3 yrs. The argument came about that he publicly said something mean about me without using my name(he was striking back to a percieved infraction he thought I committed against him). It was also personal info which I thought others would figure out. What he posted at that moment and that I thought it was obvious to everyone he was talking bout me..I can't really get into alot, it is very personal. I told him "to ..insert word here..off.." and that I hated him. I cut the friendship off at that point. I found out he thought I was threatening repeating stuff about him when I said "I would never do that to you".

Anyway 5 or so days later I said that I didn't like ending it that way and how the friendship had been but I did ..well I didn't say exactly what I wanted but I am sure I indicated I wanted to be friends again. He said that I said extreme things like I hated him then decided later I didn't mean it. He didn't deal well with personalities like that. Note here. I never told anyone I hated them before not even as a child. I left alot out obviously but this has to be boring to most of you as is. Obviously embarressing to admit I said that.

We are still on the same forum and we have publicly bantered and joked. We are very nice to eachother more so than to the others.

 

[martin]

Personally, I am not particularly interested in who or what is yang or yin as a basis for interpretation, I am mainly interested in what direction the oracle stresses movement as a practical strategy for the questioner. Nonetheless, I find your idea of interest and am wondering whether you apply it to other hexagrams or just this one.

I apply it also to other hexagrams in which there is a strong polarization of yin and yang, hexagrams 43 and 44, for example.
If it makes sense, that depends on the question that was asked.

I rarely think in terms of pathways of change because I try to read the relating hexagram first of all as an image of the question or the state of mind or situation of the questioner. If the image seems to fit - it often does in my experience - I don't interpret the relating hexagram as 'future' and then there is no 'change', at least not a change from the first to the second hexagram.