How 23.4 become progress...35?

[arabella]

Well, putting together what you and Jesed are saying, MareMaria, that would be logical. Because that isn't saying it's mistake. It's saying she does this this way. It is her method. Only I see it as a mistake maybe. Anyway, one thing for sure, this is what she has done.

 

[maremaria]

Well, putting together what you and Jesed are saying, MareMaria, that would be logical. Because that isn't saying it's mistake. It's saying she does this this way. It is her method. Only I see it as a mistake maybe. Anyway, one thing for sure, this is what she has done.

For sure, is not a nice behavior. But I know and you probably know managers of that "style". I have a hunch , that 19 could be an advice for you but I can't be very sure.

 

[willowfox]

It seems now that "certain" people believe that she was lying to you because she loves you as Hex 19 suggests that the noble woman can have no ulterior or dastardly motives?

Wow! This gets sillier and sillier.

So when she stabs you in the back again, its because she really wants to teach you something of value. That's she the boss and your not, so don't go over her head again sort of thing or am I wrong again?

 

[Trojina]

It seems now that "certain" people believe that she was lying to you because she loves you as Hex 19 suggests that the noble woman can have no ulterior or dastardly motives?

Wow! This gets sillier and sillier.

So when she stabs you in the back again, its because she really wants to teach you something of value. That's she the boss and your not, so don't go over her head again sort of thing or am I wrong again?

those 'certain people' have a right to express their views without being called 'silly' by you.

The idea that this is a vendetta does not come from hexagram 19 but is your own personal opinion based on what you have read of the situation. If it is your personal opinion then state it as such rather than pretend that vendetta is showed by 19.

 

[hilary]

It seems now that "certain" people believe that she was lying to you because she loves you as Hex 19 suggests that the noble woman can have no ulterior or dastardly motives?

Wow! This gets sillier and sillier.

So when she stabs you in the back again, its because she really wants to teach you something of value. That's she the boss and your not, so don't go over her head again sort of thing or am I wrong again?

No, I don't think anyone has said anything of the kind. Re-read, rethink - or ignore, if you prefer, but kindly don't start arguments without reading.

As for 19 - here's a little excerpt from RJ Lynn's footnotes on this one that I've found very helpful in understanding some 19-ing people:

The basic meaning of lin is "look down on," from which is derived "oversee" (i.e. care for, manage, govern). "Approach" is another derived meaning, probably via lin (the same graph), the name of an ancient siege machine, "the approacher," apparently some kind of movable scaffold that allowed besiegers to fire projectiles down on and over walled fortifications.

And he quotes Zhuxi, suggesting he might have had this in mind:

"Lin means 'advance and put pressure on something.' The two yang lines gradually grow strong and exert a coercive force on the yin lines."

For the most part I find the presence 'nearing' in 19 to be a positive one: stronger, more adult, more responsible, and like the character LiSe imagines who comes home and looks down benevolently over his people in the valley. However, there are other ways to 'look down on' people, and there are those who make themselves feel stronger and more secure by 'firing projectiles', like non-existent letters.

 

[willowfox]

However, there are other ways to 'look down on' people, and there are those who make themselves feel stronger and more secure by 'firing projectiles', like non-existent letters.

Fair enough, so why did she do it then? The reason for the projectiles?

You are all trying to say that the image of 19 is above reproach or she could not have done it for the reasons that I said because it doesn't fit with the hex, so why did she lie?

Can no one answer the question?

I agree with the idea of "to look down" as in a condescending way, when a superior looks down upon what they class as an inferior, arabella .

The hexs must take on a negative meaning in questions like this because obviously her superior had an ulterior motive for lying and I guarantee it was for malicious reasons.

I have also seen 'negative" lines and hexs take on a positive meaning, no hex is all beneficial, under certain circumstances it will take on a negative meaning.

Do you think that Hex 1 is all positive? It most certainly is not. Everything has a light and dark side and that includes all lines and hexs of the I Ching.

 

[hilary]

We'll never know for sure why she lied, but I think I suggested the reason why she might lie is somewhere in 19 - that sense of looking down on someone and feeling powerful. I'm reluctant to speculate further.

I think maybe there is a misunderstanding here: the point being made is that the Image of 19 - the Daxiang, that part of the text which refers to 'teaching' - does not describe nasty behaviour, but a model and ideal. This is a point about that particular Wing, not about the hexagram as a whole.

 

[willowfox]

I suppose it depends upon what the person is teaching, as teaching a person to kill another can also be considered good, it depends upon the circumstances.

Killing is supposedly deemed as "nasty" but to a soldier or a ninja it is considered the thing to do.

Martial arts all teach how a person can kill another, and that I presume would also come under Hex 19

 

[arabella]

Ok then, please tell me if this fits the model. The woman in question is a bit of a spitfire in behavior. I do think that her own anxiety can get so high that she will split you stem to stern before she even THINKS what she is doing or to whom she is doing it. I also think she does have high ideals and I have always respected her for them but, when she gets pushed, some sense of her own survival kicks in and it is every man [or woman] for themselves. It is all doubly complicated because she and I are also relatives, that is to say, relatives who are also friends. I didn't think initially in reading this situation that was important to say, but maybe it is.

So a big part of this for me is whether working with her will destroy our other relationship entirely. In short, even though I have gobs of good business experience for her to draw on, the question is whether helping her start and organise her company is a help or a hindrance, is it worth it to take other risks of these kinds of incidents and the fallout they create?

Further to that, does that fit what the IChing is saying more closely? Because this is what I am actually seeing in how she has deflated back to her normal self now and, once I just let her off the hook about the letter, everything is fairly usual and as WF said way back when, this will just blow over. I think it probably is blowing over. Because of the circumstances I can't afford a permanent battleground with this person. In other ways she is quite dear to me.

 

[Trojina]

I've given up trying to relate this question to the I Ching so briefly my own opinion is if someone who is dear to you, who is a relative as well as coworker tells you a straight lie about receiving a letter about you they never did...well thats not so easy to pretend it never happened is it ?

I would ask her why she did what she did..no matter what her relation to you surely a lie like that destroys the basis of the relationship ? Or I dunno maybe you prefer to let it pass if shes really not that important to you



Noone here can tell you on the basis of any answer whatsoever why she did what she did..only she can do that. So if its that important ask her. If its not important let it go but you aren't going to get at the certain truth by speculating with the help of others from Yis answers here IMO. well its no more speculation. if speculation is what you want then speculate ahead...


what you really need to know is about what you do not why she does anything. In your shoes I would be asking the Yi about confronting her or not, asking her or not why she did it


Just something like 'what if i pursue questioning her' and 'what if i let it drop'


BTW you will gather something of her motives anyway by the response you get about you should do.

 

[arabella]

What happens if I confront X directly about this lie?

According to the casting I just did on "What happens if I confront X directly about this lie," the answer is Hexagram 59, judgement. That sounds like all former boundaries dissolve, all that is known is washed away. Does this means the problem dissolves? Our relationship washes away? In my heart I think she would deny having said it, having mentioned the letter at all. Can 59 mean that? I would like to think the problem of lying just dissolves, but I don't see how it could.

 

[Trojina]

According to the casting I just did on "What happens if I confront X directly about this lie," the answer is Hexagram 59, judgement. That sounds like all former boundaries dissolve, all that is known is washed away. Does this means the problem dissolves? Our relationship washes away? In my heart I think she would deny having said it, having mentioned the letter at all. Can 59 mean that? I would like to think the problem of lying just dissolves, but I don't see how it could.

it could be several things. My first thought is that you confront her and you have nothing to grasp, shes evasive, it doesn't get you anywhere. My second thought is that in 59 with all rigidity dispersing then the issue does indeed dissolve...or (thirdly) that the answer over rides the question and just asks you to let it go. 59 certainly isn't a 'pin her to the ground and thrash it out' kind of answer...but i find it hard to know how to take it here

it maybe clearer if you also ask next 'what if i let it go' . BTW what do you want to do about it

How you want things to be is the key issue. If she is emotionally important to you as a person I guess you'd want to clear it up more than if she is really not very close emotionally, just a colleauge (even though she is a relative also) I guess you need to figure the most comfortable way to play it if you have to continue working with her. If it was someone close i imagine it would be hard to work alongside them when they had told you such a blatent lie

 

[arabella]

So I have cast for "What happens if I don't confront and simply let this go?" Answer: Hexagram 2, judgement. Which to my mind would have primary meanings of devotion, serving, openness, flexibility and great strength or transformative energy. I'm also thinking, out of sight out of mind -- in a way that if I don't bring it up again the whole incident is simply forgotten like it didn't happen. Maybe letting it go by will be appreciated and she will change her ways? But I'm not sure that's possible, and here's why --

This evening I had an interesting talk with my son, a student who lives away from home, about recent events and he advised to just drop it, that the individual in question goes, as he says, "deaf and blind" when they are "cornered." His version of this is that in the situation I'm describing she would simply lose all sense of proportion and though she might deeply regret it later, at the critical moment when she would have to justify her criticisms to me, she would pull out whatever she thought would be convincing because she finds me massively intimidating and thinks I wouldn't take her very seriously unless the situation was described as "very serious." He described her probable reaction to having to confront me, especially as she was angry and wanted her own back, as "primal." He's a very perceptive character and I would imagine this explains the "why." So now I'm up to what to do now. I'm thinking let it go, but be aware from here forward. Corner her on the ground and you better be on full alert until she's found her way back to her pedestal. I'm seeing Hilary's quotation about firing projectiles down on me. Not pleasant, but clear.

Thanks all for hanging in with this. If anything, it's inspired me to think of the future and what I should do with my life force and time.

 

[fkegan]

Hex 23 with the 4th line moving is quite different from its Resulting Hexagram 35...

I've asked the IChing -- "Why won't X let me see the letter?" The casting was 23.4 changing to 35. As said, I can't find a previous situation that seems to equate with mine in the Clarity archives and I am stumped what this reading has to do with the issue. Thoughts anyone? All help is much appreciated.

Hi Arabella,

I returned to your original post, like moving up the Ganges closer to its high mountain Source to have a bit of clarity. There is a general principle in history that it is always the one who feels in the weaker position that resorts to violence or starts the war.

Therefore, being kind and gentle with a supervisor who is acting out forcefully is always a good idea. From your description of the original situation, your supervisor who is your friend needed far gentler and more understanding treatment from you, and an apology as a friend for your getting things all mixed up (even if totally untrue) is what in business is called a pleasant and appropriate white lie to make life easier.

As to your I Ching question about Hex 23.4 >>35 let me start also at the basics. Hexagram 23 has only one strong Yang line in the top or 6th position indicating a total focus upon what will be Next, Only, with all else to be ignored.

Line 4 is the place of the heart/soul or where feelings, goals, images are involved. It is not the third line passions or the 5th line organization or well-thought out executive decision making (it is the place of the King, after all).

Hex 23 with a moving line in the 4th place describes and interference with the overall thrust of this hexagram to move on to the Next. This interference is in terms of a focus developing in terms of the heart's feelings demanding to be attended to before letting things move on.
In the Wilhelm this line has a very tough judgment without any indication beyond the difficulties of this hexagram is not only decaying your bed, but also grabbing at your skin.

The Oracle Judgment of a hexagram with a moving line is different from the entire Oracle with a Resultant Hexagram formed when this moving line is not just making itself a painful bedsore but where the whole situation could eventually get to and be resolved.

Hexagram 35 is indeed that hexagram with 2 Yang lines, one still in the 6th place and the other in the 4th place. However, here the feelings of the heart are working toward assisting in the progress from this timing to some Next timing. It bears a judgment speaking about a local leader who uses the resources at her disposal in the service of her supervisor so that they can all benefit in the next situation where both of them would have more responsibilities and need to be able to trust one another.

So exactly what could this ancient Chinese I Ching text about princes and horses possibly say to a modern woman in this day and age? How would I know? I am but a male intrigued by ancient history and lacking much in the way of skills to relate in the modern way.

I would note that from my perspective, Hexagram 23 is the positive Dyad of the decad or set of 10 hexagrams starting with Hex 21 about Justice or the Natural consequences following from our actions. The ideogram for hex 23's name refers to a sharp blade used either to cut down the grain crop in the fullness of its plant development, killing each plant so its grain can be separated out to send to market while the rest of the plant is discarded as waste; something else that is partially decayed and the blade is used to preserve what is good and eliminate what is only developing into his own stinky mess or decay.

Thus 23 is the hexagram of experiencing justice in terms of the objective decision of what is valuable to keep or promote and what is only interested in its own individual benefit; and therefore a liability to the overall enterprise in terms of continuing good order and profitability.

A few abstract thoughts from the perspective of the Ancient King Wen or Chou I Ching...

Frank

 

[arabella]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, this sounds like what Trojan was saying in a different form because she was advising to do more to help and less to hinder, to add to what I was doing in aid of this person and defer to her really. And I tried to do that when it was suggested, but by then the thunder wagon was already rolling and war had been declared. Some sort of satisfaction was demanded. So have we already passed the "next" position? Or is there still something to recoup here in future benefit? I mean, hexagram 35 sounds quite positive and I can't think we've been there yet considering where matters stand now.

 

[fkegan]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, this sounds like what Trojan was saying in a different form because she was advising to do more to help and less to hinder, to add to what I was doing in aid of this person and defer to her really. And I tried to do that when it was suggested, but by then the thunder wagon was already rolling and war had been declared. Some sort of satisfaction was demanded. So have we already passed the "next" position? Or is there still something to recoup here in future benefit? I mean, hexagram 35 sounds quite positive and I can't think we've been there yet considering where matters stand now.

Hi Arabella,

There is always time for Peace, especially if you apologize and admit it was all your BAD, regardless of what you actually believe. To move on to the good parts of hex 35 you have to make it clear all your actions were as a loyal subordinate trying to further her interests and agenda.

At this point you may need to kowtow to express your intense regret and apology, but that is the Asian way in ancient times or right now...

Frank

 

[willowfox]

Too many cooks spoil the broth.

Its an observation, so just stay cool.

 

[hilary]

Arabella's the only cook; the rest of us are just showing up in her kitchen with some ingredients for her to choose from. She has enough sense not to make lemon meringue sausage stew with extra chilli.

I suppose it's as Trojan says - depends on whether you are trying to save a working relationship, or restore true communication in the hope of rebuilding a friendship. Hexagram 59 certainly opens the floodgates for everything to be expressed, but all the conventions that are currently making it possible for you to work together in a civil way would be swept off down the river. Also, I've found that what follows with 59 is actually not necessarily real communication and mutual understanding - more that everyone's stuff is swirled together and people find it hard to imagine and empathise with the other person as a separate individual with their own distinct perspective. On the other hand (and this is 50:50 personal opinion and experience with 59-60), it's hard to see how you could have any kind of friendship with this woman again without going through that 59 stage.

Hexagram 2 - being of service, providing what is needed, sustaining others' growth, following their cues. This can work.

Just my two radishes.

 

[lucia]

Just my two radishes.

Do they cost 2 pesetas? (are they organic.........)?

2 unchanging often seems to just mean "accept" in my experience.........

Lucia

 

[arabella]

We've just spent the afternoon having a meeting on how things will progress from here, on a practical level, to do with Company business. It was a though nothing had ever happened. She's back on her perch and I just agreed with whatever she wants to do, but I'm looking around now for other possibilities. Nothing here is in stone. And while I'm here, I'll be emininently aware of the potential for more explosions if I cross her. Today I saw her as emotionally fragile. And I don't mean small and sad, I mean she's on a knife edge with the challenges of her life. I'm not interested in hurting her in any way, but I'm not the doormat either. Also, I have professional needs to meet while I can still do it and waiting on her endlessly isn't going to achieve them, so I've got to make some intelligent decisions now. Thanks again, all, for your participation in this. I feel like I've got a good resolution and am in a reasonable space with it.

 

[fkegan]

She has enough sense not to make lemon meringue sausage stew with extra chilli.

Hi Hilary,

Meringue is pretty mild and would give an interesting toasted top to the dish. Sausage stew with chili (both beans and spice powder) would be a meaty meal, especially with lots of good vegetables. The lemon gelatin could be good. I shall have to research the combination more. Sounds like an interesting culinary concoction to contemplate--basically a sweet and spicy sausage stew.

In terms of the underlying Oracle issue, there is only one crossroads or crisis decision point: Either to let the incident pass, at least outwardly, while coming to grips with what new insights were learned and what alternative may exist.

OR decide to try and resolve these problems which generally would need to begin with a proper apology for having caused problems and caused her superior difficulty.

None of the Yi Oracles suggest in any way there is any grave need to do anything particular. An Oracle of Hex 2 if the matter is just let go of certainly clearly indicates this is a viable option.
So, what any of us might suggest is of little importance. It is only what Arabella feels compelled to do that matters at all.

Frank