...life can be translucent

Menu

I Ching maps and landscapes

heylise

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,128
Reaction score
207
What I saw as wrong in my post, was not that I objected against rules, but that I mixed it with other things which bother me. Those other things did not belong here, in this thread. They gave more weight to my ideas about rules, putting it all on Rosada's shoulders.

Rules as such are not such a big problem, one can always ignore them. But they have an effect on people's feeling of freedom to express themselves in their own way.

I am not saying that Rosada is the cause, maybe things were simply going in that direction, and it became more clear in this thread than elsewere. Here they were actually named, do this, do not that. In general, it is as if absurdity has left, the nonsensical attempts to express something, which have the possibility to hit on something never thought of. I am not expecting it of anyone, it is just as if it is not present anymore. The people who used to do it, are behaving or silent.

This does not at all imply that it is better, or that anything else is less. I am only missing it.

Of course there are always rules, but they have to do with exchange and such things. Not analyzing someone's character in a forum, for example. Not hurting, no personal attacks, things like that. Rules of the heart. Everybody with some feeling knows them without having to be told.

About Void's remarks: I tried several times to give an alternative viewpoint, but it was ignored. After hearing how good or bad the future looks, nobody listens to the one who has objections, who says it is not certain. Not the querent and not the one who told him/her. Once said, it is simple and strong. People in distress love being told what to do or expect, especially as a solid fact.

With 'this is it' I meant only, that the answer should be read as it is given. Try to understand it, without making detours along constructions. Of course they can add a lot of insight, but someone who is exploring for the first time what the Yi actually can be, will be led away from real understanding. It makes it not necessary. A structure is like a road map, which can be useful. But if you follow the lines on the map, driving without looking up from the pavement, never ever seeing the landscape, then you will not get to know this country. In the answer, one can use one's own roadmaps, but I don't think it is good to send the querent on his way with a map instead of showing the landscape.
Once you have some idea of what the Yi can be, then every structure is fine of course.

And "this is it/this is what it means always" is of course an abomination. A hundred times worse than maps.

LiSe
 

philippa

visitor
Joined
Mar 3, 1971
Messages
108
Reaction score
0
Hi Lise,

I can no longer keep track of who says what or who's having what point of view in the "I Ching on I Ching" thread, so I'll restrict my comment to your post only.

Your current post reminds me of what I've been reading about TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) vs. western medicine. The landscape view would be like TCM (a holistic approach) and the map method would be like western medicine (a methodical approach). The idealist in me would love to see them as complementary.

This also reminds me of my struggle in research (I'm a scientist by training). How does one balance between "pure creativity" and "grunt work"?

As a learner of yi, I did, and still do often, find the road map approach beneficial because you need to start somewhere. I like to think of maps or rules as starters or pointers. I may or may not choose to follow them. And I don't mind that if they are false starts, because false starts are informative, too.

That said, recent discussions may be skewed in a certain way but isn't this just like anything in life (fashion, research, etc.)? I don't mean to sound touchy feely here: I do hope that you, as well as other people, don't feel shut out of the discussions. I like maps and I like landscapes and I like hybrids too. (Disclaimer: no, I don't work for google maps.)

Philippa
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
61
I think what is at stake here is the difference between freely exploring and looking for certainty.
I guess we all have been in critical situations where we hope that the I Ching will give us very clear and definitive answers. Certainty, yes or no. And sometimes, when we really need it, the I Ching gives us such answers. "Will I survive this?" "Sure you will! Stop worrying!"

But at others times it doesn't, even when we are desperate. Perhaps because no prediction is possible (if the question was about the future), because things have not yet been decided on higher or deeper levels. Or because the outcome depends on the questioner, herhis (new word?
new.gif
) attitude and behavior.

Or ... because we in fact don't really need a clearcut yes or no and what is behind the I Ching knows much better what we need than we do.
What we need, in that case, is perhaps not this answer or that conlusion but a wider view, more space in our hearts and minds. An attitude of openness and questioning that welcomes uncertainty and not knowing. The attitude of a child maybe.

I cannot speak for LiSe but I suppose, based on what she wrote, that that is what she recently missed here. The wider view. Thoughts with wings. Vision. Space. The fun of playing with words and images, regardless of where that leads us.
How do you want to call it?
Being grounded has much value but it can also be overdone. If our planes always stay on the ground we could as well replace them by bicycles. Or?
 

heylise

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,128
Reaction score
207
Thoughts with wings

smile.gif


LiSe
 
W

white_dog

Guest
re: Martin's comments

That is also how I interpret what LiSe has been saying. Not bad/good/better/best, just open, and if possible, digging in a little deeper. A shovel with wings?
new.gif


I like all approaches, so long as they're genuine.
 

heylise

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,128
Reaction score
207
shovel with wings
new.gif

bounce.gif


LiSe
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
61
Google is great. I found a painting with a "shovel bird" in it.
biggrin.gif


6258.jpg
 

void

visitor
Joined
Jul 8, 1972
Messages
493
Reaction score
6
Yes but that was what Lise seemed to be objecting to, digging.

She said she just wanted people to trust the answer and in her words <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

not reading the answer as "is this it" and then thinking hard what it might mean<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Thats the confusion to me. Saying you want openess but not wanting people to 'think hard' which in reality is just another way of 'exploring'.

I honestly don't see you Lise as being especially more 'open' than the posters the remarks may have been aimed at. That definition is one you are applying to your self/others as the case may be.

Thankyou in anycase for explaining further your views to me. Theres no point for me to continue, I guess I will just agree to differ.
 

void

visitor
Joined
Jul 8, 1972
Messages
493
Reaction score
6
Yes but that was what Lise seemed to be objecting to, digging.

She said she just wanted people to trust the answer and in her words <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

not reading the answer as "is this it" and then thinking hard what it might mean<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Thats the confusion to me. Saying you want openess but not wanting people to 'think hard' which in reality is just another way of 'exploring'.

I honestly don't see you Lise as being especially more 'open' than the posters the remarks may have been aimed at. That definition is one you are applying to your self/others as the case may be.

Thankyou in anycase for explaining further your views to me. Theres no point for me to continue, I guess I will just agree to differ.
 

void

visitor
Joined
Jul 8, 1972
Messages
493
Reaction score
6
Mmm well re reading your post above I see you mean more your objection is to the 'constructions' where people find all kinds of weird ways to make the hexagram they receive into another hexagram - as if the primary and relating were not enough.

I understand that objection more. Initially I took it you meant you didn't like people disussing their differing views/perspectives on line meanings etc.
 

luz

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 1970
Messages
778
Reaction score
8
Void, you are determined to differ and to see in other people's words offensive ideas. You hear apologies and explanations and you dismiss them.

You like quoting and being picky about word choice, well, I don't see anywhere that anybody has at any point declared themselves more "open" than others or more "anything" than others.

I know self righteousness is a good feeling and all that but there comes a point where you have to look at yourself and realize that your anger is completely out of proportion.
 

heylise

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,128
Reaction score
207
Thanks Lightangel!

Will answer to Philippa's interesting subject as soon as I have swept up my brains again. Maybe I can ask assistance of the shovel bird.

LiSe
 

void

visitor
Joined
Jul 8, 1972
Messages
493
Reaction score
6
I'm not angry actually ? Those last two posts were not meant to be hostile at all ?

I'm not deliberately picky I just have a good memory.

I may quote if I wish.

If you read the post before last you can see I made it clear I was finished with the argument as I agreed to differ.

Seems everytime I settle something you march in to stir it up again.

You don't know me at all so it is better to keep personal remarks out of this. It is Lise's ideas I argue with, not Lise.
 

luz

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 1970
Messages
778
Reaction score
8
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I honestly don't see you Lise as being especially more 'open' than the posters the remarks may have been aimed at. That definition is one you are applying to your self/others as the case may be<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

That is not a personal remark? It was not meant to sound hostile? I see.. well, I think you should know that it does sound hostile.. and no less personal than me noticing that you sound angry.

Flowers in a shovel bird!
happy.gif
 

heylise

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,128
Reaction score
207
Void settles, and Lightangel stirs up.. ??

howmuch.gif
 
W

white_dog

Guest
And the crowd calls for blood!

Pillow fight! Pillow fight! Pillow fight!
 

jerryd

visitor
Joined
Feb 15, 1970
Messages
451
Reaction score
2
No need for a ( Monitor ) you guys and girls need a semantical referee.????!!!! Has anyone ever thought about the term( Contextual Implication ) in relationship to the intent of a meanings???
 

nicky_p

visitor
Joined
Jan 14, 1971
Messages
368
Reaction score
1
Hi Jerry,

Please could you tell me what you mean?

*giggles*

Sorry I couldn't resist it
happy.gif


Love the pictures.

Love
Nicky
xx
 

heylise

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,128
Reaction score
207
"semantical referee": figure out if you are one of those who talk about a living frog or a dead one. The professor in biology class knows much more about that frog on the table than any one of his students. Every word he says is true.

The little boy who peeks into the window knows not much about frogs, but he knows them from being fascinated by all those jumping creatures in the pond. That is his context(ual implication). His words are true in a very different way.
Both know something. But talking is not that easy.

LiSe
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
19,226
Reaction score
3,477
How does the professor spend his weekends? Maybe dabbling his bare feet in the mud of the pond, watching frogs? But when you see him in class, this is hard to imagine.
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
61
Neither the professor nor the little boy knows that frogs are in fact princes.
I do!
biggrin.gif
 

heylise

Supporter
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 15, 1970
Messages
3,128
Reaction score
207
darn, I am still way too commonsensible.

Martin
zen2.gif
!

LiSe
 
W

white_dog

Guest
Commonsensible is good if it's uncommoncommonsensible.

Frogs are really aliens, and they one day will rise up from their ponds and take over the world.

6271.gif
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
61
Wow, he looks very ummm, what was it, uncommon insensitive?
howmuch.gif


And familiar, somehow ..
biggrin.gif


One happy happy year, Lightangel!
Smoooooooooooooooooch!
smooch.gif
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top