Clarity,
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London.
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Sparhawk, considering your serious facility with the IChing, I'm just curious to know how you use your study of these subjects yourself -- if you don't mind sharing your own view of divination as a tool, I'd be interested to hear.
I'd like to follow the conversation from the "I Ching Wiki" here. At least I know that if somebody wants to argue with me they'll pay someone for the privilege...
Originally Posted by trojan
I find that a really fascinating viewpoint hitherto not really very much present on this forum at all I don't think. I'm still not sure how these "botched fixes by inexpert mechanics" actually manifest ?
Well, now you appreciate the nature of my dilemma. See, how one deals with the Yijing is not only very personal but, most of the time, is also outside the sphere of casual arguments. One reason I don't bring these views out more often. I don't want to become another overt Chris Lofting or Frank Kegan and give the impression that I "figured out" the nature of the Yijing and then having to defend my position with shield, armor and a two fisted sword. The thing is that I haven't "figured" anything. I have, however, come over a few preliminary conclusions. I have also brought this up before (Bamboo seems to be surprised about it...) and is usually--though not always--together with my sly comments about public interpretation of readings, which I'm against. Of course, both positions, if constantly pushed around, would make me quite unpopular in a forum where the bulk of the messages are dedicated to interpretations and the encouragement of casual readings. No way!! I want to keep the throne of Mr. Popularity...
One of the translations of the character Yi (易), usually translated as "changes," is "easy." Although it is a meaning not often mentioned, it seems people have taken it to their hearts. For me, it is obvious that the immediacy and ease or results in consulting the Yijing has totally obscured the seriousness of the oracle, not only as a tool but as an entity. To use Bamboo's example, it has been brought down to the pedestrian level of a "ouija board."
How the "botched fixes" manifest? Well, that's a pattern difficult to express. Many times they manifest in the subject with the thought "this isn't what the Yijing told me about" and the blame is on the Yi and not on them...
I assume you mean more than simple misunderstanding/misapplication of the answer ? I assume you mean tampering with or calling upon the Yi as an entity, when you don't really know what you're doing, may be a danger in itself because you're messing blindly with a being who may give you way more than you bargain for. So do you think then, that having been given more than you bargain for, which you don't understand, you can't simply dismiss/ignore the information given without it having an impact or effect of some kind ?
There are two parts to my thoughts on this: 1, The so called "butterfly effect" and 2. Interpretation.
It is my belief that when one consults the Yijing, one is not reading from a book but is in fact plucking the strings and guiding a bow across a universe-wide cello (I'm listening to Yo-yo Ma playing Bach while typing this and is something Hilary can relate to... ). The act is not passive. It produces vibrations that will indeed have an effect in the outcome of the consultation. It is a holistic experience, meaning that it isn't just outside or totally inside the subject but all around. The subject is, after all, part of the cosmos that sustains him/her. The self/ego plays these little exclusionary tricks that are nothing but illusions. These vibrations echo for far longer than the present moment of the consultation, spread around in waves and bounce over unseen "surfaces." When I mention that a consultation brings more "information" than the actual symbols and text, I refer to this. The "butterfly effect" is manifested in the consequences of those vibrations over a wider field that extends well beyond the querent and his/her present.
The manifestation of proper "Interpretation" is akin to the difference between non-musician and a Yo-yo Ma playing the cosmological cello. You could either cringe at the cacophony or be delighted by the music. How to "harmonize" the vibrations in a coherent piece is key. Of course, the Yi, as an entity, is much more than the confining metaphor of a musical instrument but it should serve to begin to draw a mental picture.
I think thats what your're saying ? If thats the case then the thousands who trundle through here and myself and all of us who consult quite often are really getting in over our heads in some way ?
Who am I to judge that? I can barely place myself in the context of Yijing knowledge, and only to realize that I have another life worth of study. I do, however, chime the bell of caution. Haphazardness can work well many time but is not the norm of its nature.
The article is interesting and more open-minded than some who have formed an opinion that psychic ability does or doesn't exist -- those who tend to hype or slam rather than just discuss. I know that the ability does occur because psychics have spoken to me at various times - unsolicited by me. These weren't people wanting to charge me for anything, they just couldn't seem to help telling me some things.
One I met, in particular, physically changed when he explained his predictions and I don't think one can do that on demand -- it just occurred along with his "seeing" elsewhere that I couldn't see. It's there alright. I just don't know for sure how useful it is, unless you can use it to avoid being literally or figuratively hit by a bus.
But again, even for personal use, the ability should, IMHO, be used sparingly. The observation itself will affect the subject and the outcome of his concerns and the margin of error could be great when toying with "power tools" and no proper training. I myself don't feel comfortable at all with my own knowledge to be casually playing with the oracle. Alas, that's a hard lesson I learned in my first ten years of study and daily use of the oracle. It took me that long to realize the thing, and its "mechanics," were for real and not just a coincidence machine to play with.
As you can imagine, my POV isn't all that popular here. A little stuffy, with a perceived, and misguided, air of "knowledge," perhaps; popular, no...
A couple things spring to mind Sparhawk. One, that in your description of the Yi, you give an impression of an instrument that equates nicely with current ideas [from what I know anyway] of quantum physics. That the experimenter, the observer, predicts his own outcome. And this transaction apparently happens at the level of light particles that are moving away from each other, therefore, causing an effect moving twice the speed of light, a phenomenon we have no words to explain. Or the Hindu idea, "What you see coming toward you is actually coming from you."
That makes consultation of the Yi into an awe-inspiring experience. More like a prayer than a question or a casting. Because in effect, aren't you then on some subliminal level telling the Yi what you would like for yourself and asking the Oracle to put that into symbols for you?
Maybe it's unpopular to see the Yi this way, I don't know, and certainly I haven't really thought about this before. But when I do think of it in that light, I can see the real possibility of it. In which case, when I talk to the Yi, I am questioning myself and telling myself through a means I can't see -- from a dimension that speaks to me -- what I need to see. So, to ask the Yi to predict the future is to ask what I intend for myself. Is this making sense? OK, one crazy step further. If I ask the YiChing about the future, I am asking what I intend my future to be.
Hmmm. Where are the butterflies in this?
That makes consultation of the Yi into an awe-inspiring experience. More like a prayer than a question or a casting. Because in effect, aren't you then on some subliminal level telling the Yi what you would like for yourself and asking the Oracle to put that into symbols for you?
OK, one crazy step further. If I ask the YiChing about the future, I am asking what I intend my future to be.
I vote you hijack every single shredded readings thread with your POV....or include your POV ,at length, in your signature...possibly alongside a very large dragon people have to scroll down for 5 minutes to bypass.
Go on ....
The ethos of the forum seems to be 'ask as much as you like as often as you want about anything at all' . I don't have a fixed opinion about that one way or the other right now but I do notice theres nothing much around to counter or balance that prevailing assumption that consulting as an act in itself does not affect anything.
Someone on another forum (which will remain nameless) pointed out this thread to me because sparhawk has eloquently and succinctly delivered the very thoughts I was ineptly trying to introduce here. This view is very popular in true Taoist teachings and is precisely what I found lacking here on the open forum. A reverence and appreciation of the "entity" that communicates with us is to be taken very seriously and not to be toyed with lightly. My original questions pertained to ritual and right intention. No wonder I never was answered!
Picture a spider web in which both the spider and the fly contribute to the movement of the web. One cannot move without affecting the other, yet each moves to struggle from the instinctive will to survive. Once born, things do not die, they simply change form and continue on. We are therefore conditioned by the teachings to be careful of our intentional release of energy so that it raises the level of all beings.
So more questions immediately leap to the foreground. In this case, what should my state of mind be when I'm consulting? How do I phrase my "question" if it's really in effect a proposition of intention?
Well, you realize that, as with anything, I just may be full of it, right? Caveat emptor...
They are some of my own personal conclusions though and I suppose I own my words. As for your questions above, I would play "offense" and apply as much goal oriented "will" to your consultation as possible. This is one reason I sort of cringe at relationship questions: They are full of "misplaced hope," "defenseless wishful thinking" and a "The universe of 'them' against 'me'" attitude ---->> A very passive approach, IMO.
Why use the oracle as an umbrella (certainly possible) when it can be the rain that soaks where you direct it?
How many days from my trip should I dedicate to visit town X?
39.1>63
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=11243
Owl, your reading seems to suggest you shouldn't go to town X -- and maybe that you shouldn't go on a trip, either. This line is saying there is trouble ahead.
You should dedicate N times X days. That is, the more value the offerings of X have for you compared to other places you will be going, the longer you should spend there. 39 is river and hill. Is X on a hill near a river -- like Rome? 63 suggests a bridge across a river, which could be the clue to the specific answer you seek. You should dedicate as many days to X as there are main bridges across the river in X. (Or bridge-like structures if there is no river )
Almost 40 years ago, Profs. David N. Keightley (UC Berkley), Father Paul L-M Serruys (U of Wa), David S. Nivison (Stanford), and others, turned accepted Chinese scholarship on Oracle Bones Inscriptions (OBI) on its head--and for Chinese I mean Mainland China scholarship---with a crazy notion: That the inscriptions on the OBI were not questions but, basically, statements of intent. Akin, IMHO, to what one would find in magical spells.
Lost keys and money, missing pets and boyfriends and pizza, sports results, car repairs, water leaks, and such are common in Shared Readings. Do such queries demean the Yi? In my opinion they do not. Playfulness and creativity are part of the human condition and give vitality to a forum. Further, a query may be responded to as fortunetelling or as divination depending on whether the information comes from casting and its text or from the character of the querent.
In my unscholarly understanding, depending on the angle of the crack, oracle bones returned one of two possible answers: auspicious or inauspicious. That is, yes or no. The querent proposed something like "Sacrifice sheep to Uncle Ma" and received a yes/no answer.
Now, "Sacrifice sheep to Uncle Ma" is a conditional intention, but it is also a question:
Should I sacrifice a sheep to Uncle Ma?
If I sacrifice a sheep to Uncle Ma, will he receive it?
So in the context of oracle bones there is no distinction between conditional intention and question.
However, what Luis is suggesting is something new I'm trying to understand because I've never thought of it before, which is why I asked. I was trying to imagine somebody like he is, with an academic understanding, casting for something he/they would want to learn. Basically, I'm a voyeuristic fan of the IChing trying to understand how others see this experience.
I don't know that the idea of "will" is more mature than the idea of "playfulness" -- or more accurate to what you may want to know in your heart of hearts. However, it is interesting to ponder what the Yi was intended to do in the first place, although many other ideals of civilisation have developed in thousands of years since. I don't know anything of the original Chinese symbolism and early development of this oracle. I'm trying to step back with guidance from Luis's scholarship and question what the Yi's intent was/is and if somehow in studying from a prediction point of view I've missed a very large boat. What I'm enquiring about from him is not intended as a diminution of anybody else's idea. It's, well, EXPLORING DIVINATION!
Is it resilience of the oracle or our own neural elasticity which is the cause of historical resilience exhibited by the oracle? It seems a fairly strong thread of reason, that we are the intended object of change, and our will is to be subjugated and trained to more responsibly assume charge of that which we have charge over, and to yield to that far greater force or field or path, which carries us along as a flea on a dog's back.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).