Karcher recommendations

[Sparhawk]

And here is where what I said fits: for better or for worse, the one which became a keystone of Chinese culture was the Yi Jing. Without the evolution that led to the canonization of the commentaries portrayed in the wings, the Zhou Yi probably would had be irrelevant after 2 or 3 centuries.

The comment, and the logic behind it, has merit, but I don't think it is fully sustainable. By the time the Yijing became the "Yijing," the structure behind it, the concepts that would later become known as "Chinese Thought," starting with as late as the Shang but must likely earlier, already had centuries of work and exegesis. Indeed, it culminated with an "official seal of approval" and elevated it to a mandated subject of study in China for the next two thousand years, but I believe it would have survived pretty well regardless, just as the Daodejing did.

But what do I know anyway?

I've always said that anyone can toss three coins and form a hexagram but serious students of the Yijing are few and we tend to know each other over the years and also remember each other's writing style, general knowledge, and prose nuances. Welcome back, Daniel (Cejudesc)

 

[riurik]

we tend to know each other over the years and also remember each other's writing style, general knowledge, and prose nuances.

Let me guess, the "what do I know" thing? :bows: That should be our former group's trademark Old habits don't die, right? Please dont tell Allan Liam - he was the original source :bows:

Welcome back, Daniel (Cejudesc)

Oh my It seems me and you may have at least 2 mutual acquittances back in Mexico. Good memories. Are you from Mexico?

 

[anemos]

That explains !!!

You sounded sooooo familiar like I knew you. Especially after what you said at my thread
You send the same positive vibes as Rodrigo. I though you were him

 

[riurik]

You send the same positive vibes as Rodrigo. I though you were him

Ouch. First Daniel and then Rodrigo? I'm considering the option to leave now kidding.

Do you know anything about Counselor R? I haven't heard a word from him for the last 2-3 years. Some people said he is in USA now

 

[Sparhawk]

Oh my It seems me and you may have at least 2 mutual acquittances back in Mexico. Good memories. Are you from Mexico?

No, I am from Uruguay, but I thought you knew that. Weren't you also in my Spanish forum before? As for Rodrigo, he recently completed a postgrad in International Law at Notre Dame University, spent almost a year in the U.S., but is back in Mexico now. You can find him on Facebook under his name, if you wish to get in touch, and also in Foro Yijing under Jesed.

 

[heylise]

Well, this is an interesting one. What would be Yi itself? Why Yi itself would be the Zhou Yi? Because traditionally even the text known as Zhou Yi is understood merely as a commentary to the hexagrams - meaning a group of symbolic lines without any word attached.

There is the Yi, and there are commentaries. Maybe the text which goes with the lines is also commentary, but probably on the lines and from experience with outcomes of answers. I think that is the part the diviners themselves added. Some long ago in the beginning, some lots later. Changing older text, first oral, later written, growing, developing, and maybe here and there a change which was not for the better.

The Yi was called Zhou Yi, because it was made - or maybe just written down from older oral traditions, no idea - in the time of the Zhou.
Then lots of commentaries were added, and all of that together became the Yi Jing, the Yi Canon, or classic Yi.

Nobody knows what is really "the Yi" and probably there is no such thing at all. But we know the Zhou Yi, which is for me the Yi itself, and the Yi Jing, the whole Yi-bunch.

I agree with Luis, without any commentary other than what is in the Zhou Yi, it would have survived anyway. Why else would anybody make the effort to write a comentary...

Yes, circular argument

 

[anemos]

Ouch. First Daniel and then Rodrigo? I'm considering the option to leave now kidding.

Do you know anything about Counselor R? I haven't heard a word from him for the last 2-3 years. Some people said he is in USA now

Noooo ! stay !
when i read your posts at the 55 thread , I literally saw with my mind eyes a phrase rodrigo said about the wings... and then your humor leaves the same taste jajaja

I don't know why, but your "voice" sounds very familiar. Maybe its just a false gut feeling

about rodrigo, I know what Luis said.

 

[sooo]

As for Rodrigo, he recently completed a postgrad in International Law at Notre Dame University

Wow, good for him!

 

[sooo]

While I appreciate the core meanings, which to me are more like core symbols, to be interpreted within the context of a given question (also meaning they have more than one core meaning), I am as appreciative of the thoughtfully constructed texts (omen/Da Xiang), which give the core breadth, as branches give life and breadth to the trunk of a tree. I doubt trees would survive long as just roots and a trunk, without the branches and leaves, blossoms and fruit. Plus they make a way to climb the tree, leaving only the fruit at the very top uneaten; which is why, imo, it (the whole Yi) can never be completely mastered, nor finished.

 

[answeredquestions]

Well, this is informative... and confusing. Especially because I still haven't figured out which Karcher to get
..I might just get them all. However I do appreciate the recommendations in the beginning of the thread... Yeah, I am going to get 3 or 4 Karcher's. That settles it!

...and I do not know enough about the wings to say anything regarding that. Just soaking all of this in.




Maybe we should rename this thread to "what is a bird with no wings" or "is a bird a bird if it has no wings?" or"He who cut wing off bird cannot fly"

...................... carry on.

 

[riurik]

Well, this is informative... and confusing.

Maybe we should rename this thread to "what is a bird with no wings" or "is a bird a bird if it has no wings?" or"He who cut wing off bird cannot fly"

Maybe is time to learn how to kill a mockingbird then

 

[answeredquestions]

...strangely I have read it twice, and just last time I visited my parents, my mother handed me that book. She said, I think this is your's, do you want it? I said sure, what the heck. I might read it again!

 

[answeredquestions]

In this for the long haul..

Alright, here is what I purchased:

• I Ching: The Classic Chinese Oracle of Change -- The First Complete Translation with Concordance by Stephen Karcher

• The Original I Ching: An Authentic Translation of the Book of Changes by Margaret J. Pearson Ph.D.

• The Elements of the I Ching (Elements of Series) by Stephen Karcher

• I Ching: Book of Changes by James Legge

• The I Ching or Book of Changes: A Guide to Life's Turning Points by Brian Browne Walker

• The Classic of Changes: A New Translation of the "I Ching" as Interpreted by Wang Biby Richard John Lynn

• Yi Jing by Jing Nuan Wu

• The I Ching Plain and Simple: A Guide to Working with the Oracle of Change by Karcher

• The Laws of Change: I Ching and the Philosophy of Life by Jack M. Balkin

I am pretty excited to receive them and compare them to other translations I already have. The more translations perhaps the more refining or honing in on the essence of things. They will be coming in from various places.

It's pretty cool. I read a story about a lady who calls herself the Kombucha Momma. I am pretty into Kombucha but not like she is. She said that she went to her friends house and saw "strange and curious jars of tea" hanging around and so she asked about them. Her friend told her it was an ancient method of making tea... Tea that has bacteria and yeasts in it... I guess at that moment she knew she would be forever tangled with Kombucha. She learned how to do it herself and now is not only making Kombucha Tea but she is helping other's get started.

I was flipping out for a second and thinking my purchase was too much money but then I realized that from the moment I met the I Ching, I knew I would forever be deepening the relationship. So, this purchase is just fine...

 

[peterg]

Retail therapy

Looks like you bought half the shop. Dont we all like a bit of retail therapy at times.

I totally lost interest in Karchers '' Total I Ching '' but I might still read the introductions to the hexagrams.
Karcher and Ritsema's '' Classic '' has lived up to its name and stood the test of time.
Wu Jing Nuan's '' Yijing '' is a gem and works well in conjunction with K & R.
Legge is a perennial favourite and though the language is dated it is still very interesting for its ' literal fidelity to the original ' and its comments on the lines.
regards
peter

 

[answeredquestions]

I received 5 new translations over the weekend and ended up doing ONE very important reading for myself. I got out all of my translations, unwrapped my yarrow and made a morning out of it! I haven't read the opening sections of the new books shame on me. I will definitely be getting to that but as for the meantime.....

Here are some Initial thoughts on what I got:

Welll, there is quite the difference when it comes to Karcher's I Ching: The Classic Chinese Oracle of Change -- The First Complete Translation with Concordance
and his The I Ching Plain and Simple: A Guide to Working with the Oracle of Change . Just regarding the amount of information given. I like that he did both.

I like how Karcher seperates the individual words of each line and translates them individually in order (in both books). The Plain and Simple is a really great resource to have when you have a little bit of previous knowledge. It helped my reading when opening it and the simple and to the point words really helped shape what the Yi was telling me. The other, more indepth book was almost overwhelming for me, but there was something that caught my eye in my morning read that was in no other book. So it wins my approval. It was another one of those "AH HA!" moments that I love so much.

I also like the flow of The Laws of Change: I Ching and the Philosophy of Life by Jack M. Balkin . His sentences are short and direct, yet flow all together. I feel like he really has a great grasp on the meanings and gives wonderful advice. It was my favorite that morning.

Margaret Pearson's book was a nice little different sort of take on things for me. It is hard for me to get used to the Image being after the lines. I think the order is a little strange but maybe something I just need to get used to.

Brian Browne Walker - bought as an oddball whim sort of thing. Ended up being a sort of "pocket dictionary" approach to me.

I hope this thread can help people in search of which translations to get!
Take care..

I still have 4 translations coming...

 

[hilary]

Balkin and Karcher are rather beautifully completely opposite - especially if you get 'Total I Ching' (maybe after you have skipped a few meals to save up for the next buying spree...). Balkin will explain everything, tell you what it means and why it means it, and probably also what you should be doing. Karcher will explain next to nothing but immerse you in a huge sea of imagery and stories and evocative unexplained things, in which you are expected to find yourself.

And I agree with Peter that Wu Jing Nuan is a gem.

 

[cjgait]

My Favorite Translation

Several of my favorites were on the list, but two weren't, an old one and a relatively new one:

The Tao of I Ching by Jou, Tsung Hua

And

Zhouyi:: The Heart of the Yijing by Liu Ming

And Rutt's Zhouyi, of course, but more as a reference than a translation of the Yi (I study his translation of the Attached Statements, though).

And even though I don't read it often, a collection without the Wilhelm/Bayne just seems lacking.

Let's face it, once you start collecting the Yi you give up on space and money. The collection comes first, as you are discovering.

 

[Sparhawk]

Let's face it, once you start collecting the Yi you give up on space and money. The collection comes first, as you are discovering.

Tell me about it! My wife is trying to decide if I am a book collector or a pathological hoarder...

 

[answeredquestions]

Just to put it out there... I cannot put down Karcher's Plain and Simple. I now see it's focused and intelligent beauty!

 

[answeredquestions]

How Karcher describes Spirits and Time... It has opened up a whole new dimension of the Yi to me! I find what he has wrote very important in the understanding of how the Yi works.

About the Time part, I couldn't even begin to explain it to anyone else if I had to, I would just have to hand them the Karcher book and say 'here, read this'. But I honestly feel what he says is so powerful and it makes so much sense my head is going to explode.

Something funny and a little sychronotic (is that a word?) is the time I have been spending with the Yi, I have been trying to understand from more than one translation, but the two I was likely to pick up before were Wilhelm and Balkin. Both books, if you take the outer covers off, not only are both yellow but they do not have any words or markings that would say which way is up or down. I started out by only having Wilhelm for about a year and a half and this happened almost every time. I can say almost every time I would pick up either of these books and opened to look within, it would be upsidedown. I know this sounds strange, but I am a woman of symbols and meanings, and as soon as I realized this was happening I knew there was something to it. I would even go as far as having the book in my hand and saying to myself, 'let's see if it happens again' and it almost always did occur. I thought to myself numerous times that I am seeing something backwards in regards to the Yi.

Now, I haven't been using those copies as much lately in trying to branch out. That is one reason this upsidedown book thing seems to have stopped, but I have picked them up here and there, and the flipflop has not happened since I came across the understanding that, when looking at a relating hexagram, it can mean 'where the situation is coming from'. Once I figured this out, the way of looking at it almost seemed backwards, because why wouldn't the reading go from the 1st Hexagram to the 2nd Hexagram. It seems backwards. But I have been trying this method of looking at the reading, which was a suggestion I believe by Hilary in her Beginner's Course. It makes very much sense to me even tho it is not from left to right reading.

But when Karcher talks about time and how the spirits create meaning by means of the future coming to the present, wow, it just tied it all together for me! I am sure that this way of looking at a relating hexagram is not set in stone, but it does seem to make sense to me.

All this coincidence?! I think NOT!

 

[sergio]

Hello everybody:
Perhaps it might interest some of you to check these mini lectures Mr Karcher on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS08ZtyQ32E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgcp_MBGBAo
Sergio

 

[answeredquestions]

I cannot thank you enough sergio

 

[sergio]

Enjoy. I would also like to recommend to you Karcher's last book: IChing the symbolic life http://www.amazon.com/I-Ching-The-Symbolic-Life/dp/1439253463
There were three lectures he published in his own website that were an excellent introduction to the book but I just cannot find them anymore.Last but not least his translation of the Ta Chuan-the great treatise is also very good. His approach, to me, can be a tad overwhelmingly poetic but if one perseveres through it there gems to be found laying deeply underneath the many layers of hyperbole and imagery.

Sergio

 

[sergio]

Finally found them!As usual they were right in front of my eyes...
http://www.stephenkarcher.com/blog/Downloads/EnteringtheSymbolicLife.pdf
http://www.stephenkarcher.com/blog/Downloads/PaperHorses.pdf
http://www.stephenkarcher.com/blog/Downloads/RitesofPassage.pdf
Enjoy!
Sergio

 

[answeredquestions]

Thanks Sergio for the links!