Keep It Light Enough to Travel

[jesed]

Hi Lindsay

Of course, I'm aware that you already knows the following:

This is an authentic Chinese voice. Why can’t we do this too? When someone asks, “Does my girlfriend love me?” - a yes or no question where “sort of” = no – why can’t we give them an answer? Yes! No! When someone asks, “When is a good time to take a trip?” – why can’t we just say “June 2008”?

Some of us did work that way. You can see my blog, for example, where I use both text-based and mathematical-based methods (oh... am I doing self-marketing now? :bag: ).
But it is risky, indeed. If you say (as I had did in this forum): you would receive a letter in X date... you have no justifications. The letter arrive at that date, or not. Simple constation.

The worst that can happen is we are wrong, our prediction turns out to be incorrect. So what? We freely give advice now that is just as risky. (Why does the Yi always sound like a middle-class white person on this forum?)

Indeed. I remember in this forum the emotional reaction against my interpretation for a yes/no answer, implied the posibility of death. "Uggg, how can you say that.. it is black magic".


But... you already knows this. So, the issue is with Yi? or with this forum (as pointed by Luis)? or with western-centrism?

Best wishes

 

[martin]

At this point, the foreteller has already found and analyzed the symbolic components of the prediction. The interpretation can then be made directly from a reading of the attributes of the trigrams and the action pattern of the five elements within the hexagrams. The Early Heaven Formula uses these exclusively to interpret the prediction. The Later Heaven Formula relates these aspects of the prediction to the text of the I Ching.'
-- Da Liu, “I Ching Numerology, p. xii.

This is an authentic Chinese voice.

Okay, but it is also the voice of a man who was brought up in a culture that - as far as I know - believed that the future is predictable to a high degree.
Things are changing and this is a crude generalisation of course, but I think it's true, umm, in general , that the 'east' always tended to believe more in predestined fate and the 'west' more in individual free will.
How predictable is the future, really?

 

[martin]

Another question is: are predictions based on methods like the ones that Da Liu used more reliable than those based on tossing coins or something similar?
I don't know, but personally I have more trust in the coins ... (shut up, Chris! )

 

[Sparhawk]

I dont know if the Emotional IC can help you -

Chris.

Now you outdid yourself, Chris!! LOL!!

L

 

[nicky_p]

Okay, but it is also the voice of a man who was brought up in a culture that - as far as I know - believed that the future is predictable to a high degree.
Things are changing and this is a crude generalisation of course, but I think it's true, umm, in general , that the 'east' always tended to believe more in predestined fate and the 'west' more in individual free will.
How predictable is the future, really?

It makes me laugh. If we use system that that attempts to ‘predict’ the future (say economic forecasting) and slap a scientific label on it (say chaos theory) then it is by and large believed. If we throw coins and predict the future from it it’s classed as mumbo jumbo (by some) – improvable and vague. And yet economic forecasting can also be. The predictions come true through belief in many cases. And even with economic forecasting there are outliers – freak occurrences that obviously have ‘other’ variables acting upon them that have caused a tangent. It opens up other avenues of thought and discussion: new possibilities to explore.

With fate and destiny – some find comfort in being able to make a model and sit in it. And others find excitement in breaking the mold. Proving the world and science wrong – if that attracts the label of a miracle then it is handed down from a big hand somewhere. But there are people who want to pick the miracle apart – in order to repeat it for others. I personally don’t mind either – maybe an ‘each to their own’ mentality. But I have a possibly cynical distrust of people and things that tell me categorically ‘this is what will happen’ for all sorts of reasons. One is that I tend to ask of the people ‘can you guarantee that?’ and I guess another is the little rebellious streak in me that counters: ‘really? We’ll see about that! Mwah ha ha!’

Unless of course the prediction is favourable

 

[hilary]

I am soo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o frustrated with the Yi right now I could rip off the front cover (riiiip!) and tear off the back cover (riiiiiip!) and start in on the hexagrams one by one (riiip, riiip, riiiiip) – there goes hex 23, hex 57, and the Dazhuan!

I thought you already turned the Dazhuan into gerbil-litter years ago?

 

[lightofreason]

If you understand the makeup of our brains then you would know that that part of our brain that deals with the particular works by using probabilities.

This is what the Schrodinger Wave Equation is all about - a mathematical construct covering the probabilities of finding something in a particular state. This method has been, and continues to be, the most precise form of prediction possible.

For the IC. ALL hexagrams apply to each moment and the local context sorts the hexagrams into best-fit/worst-fit order, and so an ordering along probability perspectives.

From a Science perspective, tossing coins, marbles, kitchen sinks etc etc etc do NOTHING other than come up with a hexagram that may or may not be the best-fit. BUT since all hexagrams apply to the moment so any hexagram is 'meaningful' - the question is, to what degree?

A method to CONSISTANTLY get the best fit, or close to, is through the use of generic questions about the question, the situation, where the result indicates a context, where it has come from. where, in all probability, it is going.

THEN comes finer analysis using XOR methods to validate things. The issues with such a method is in trusting oneself with the questions, so sometimes it takes TWO to do the method ;-)

Our consciousness is such a small player in all of this, you need to trust your unconscious, your emotions etc to aid in coming up with a 'best fit' - otherwise you can enter the realm of 'interpretations' where imagination of consciousness can take over when there is no history present.

Chris.

 

[hollis]

Yes!!!!

I would like to know, who you can go to for this kind of prediciton Lindsay is writing about.

I've been trying to become aquainted with the calendar stuff that Jesed and maybe a few others here use. I tried the nanjing, I like it. But the calendar, astrology stuff, honestly, I just want someone to do it for me, because it's over my head.

 

[autumn]

Lindsay,
I can't say I empathize. I am purely ignorant of the mathematical method of prediction, but I haven't had any problem with prediction- despite the fact the only method of interpreting an answer I have available to me is the watered-down translation of others, being ignorant of the Chinese language.

Isn't it a bit of contradiction to ask for instant answers, no philosophical musing necessary, and instant clarity? If your information is frustrating and unclear, then why not think about it for a while? Thinking about answers without the benefit of historical background, the Chinese language, or knowledge of mathematical methods has worked quite well for me. None of the conclusions that I come to in my own life are vague. I truly do know what is going to happen in my life or in the lives of people I ask about, about 90% of the time. And when I don't know, it isn't because I was wrong, it was because I didn't understand the answer.

I assumed most people on this board also have this experience, or why would they be wasting their time with it? Are the Chinese really all that interesting? Obviously they are to some of the people here.

My method is very simple. I ignore the advice of other people who dictate how and when you should consult, and converse with the oracle. In the course of these "conversations", I always figure it out. And I'm talking about specific details- like what happened to our dog when it ran away, what to do, and when she'd come back. I'm sure there are plently of people who are bothered by that kind of simplicity, but I don't care. I don't find anything at all vague.

 

[dobro p]

And what Autumn's saying pretty amounts to someone who's found a way to make the oracle work for them. That's pretty much what successful oracle use amounts to - can you make it work for you? And what does *that* turn on? I think it turns on a desire to have meaning; if you're really looking for meaning, then you'll find it in what the Yi offers you. But looking for meaning takes work; it's often either an uncomfortable process or one that takes time to quiet your busy mind and wait for stuff to come to you. Meanings aren't pre-programmed and ready-made with a zip-top packaging - you gotta work at it. And I believe that for most of the people most of the time, those instant intuitive flashes of useful insight that Lindsay was talking about earlier come to you only when you've done a ton of work in the field already. Hence the utility of Hilary's approach.

 

[lindsay]

In order of appearance:

stevev: Thank you for helping this string unfold.

dobro: You are a very serious person, and a good one. Perhaps you should lighten up a little. You are a better teacher than a scrapper.

ewald: I believe your new translation is valuable, but be careful to protect yourself when you release it. Sometimes great expectations lead to great disappointments.

willowfox: I don’t understand you, I can’t see you clearly. Why is that?

autumn: Thanks for Barney and for your last recommendations, but ignorance has never worked for me. It’s easy to come by, and I’m glad you prize it so highly. Perhaps it will make your life easier. But is it a good idea to make so many assumptions?

sparhawk: Luis, you are funnier and kinder than you used to be. I liked you then, but I like you more now.

bruce_g: Bruce, everything about you is big. You are a junzi. Thanks for your endless support.

trojan: It all really does make sense. Thanks for trying to figure it out. My cat likes the way you think.

nicky_p: You should post more. You’ve got a lot to say.

rosada: Where do you get your energy? I also wish I had your sense of humor.

listener: Stop listening and start talking. I’d rather listen to you as talker than talk to you as listener.

hilary: Words cannot express…but there is one thing. Where did an internet baby like you get a steeltrap memory? It’s true I used that Dazhuan gag before, but my writers were away for the weekend.

jesed: I’m right behind you.

lightofreason: Sorry, Chris, I’m not ready for the Emotional IC right now. But I am glad you and Martin have found each other. It takes a lot of pressure off the rest of the forum.

martin: I always figured you were the smartest person on Clarity, but I never guessed you and Chris would become an item. It makes sense. Good luck and happiness to both of you.

hollis: If I find anything interesting, I’ll let you know.


Goodbye for now.

Lindsay

 

[autumn]

Hmm-
Instant comprehension didn't seem to work here. I didn't say ignorance is useful. I said academic knowledge is unnecessary to use an oracle as an oracle. That's not the part of the brain that interprets a coherent answer from an oracle. Bazooka cartoons could work as an oracle.

 

[mudpie]

Goodbye for now

‘really? We’ll see about that! Mwah ha ha!’

Listener ; )

 

[dobro p]

"Where did an internet baby like you get a steeltrap memory?"

internet babes are famous for that

 

[ewald]

ewald: I believe your new translation is valuable, but be careful to protect yourself when you release it. Sometimes great expectations lead to great disappointments.

Thanks, Lindsay, I will. I know that many people will be too attached to Wilhelm's interpretations to accept it.

 

[stevev]

I know that many people will be too attached to Wilhelm's interpretations to accept it.

I'm not, looking forward.

 

[rosada]

Thanks Lindsay! What fun to have all these names listed in one place. Gave me a much clearer sence of our group!

 

[Sparhawk]

sparhawk: Luis, you are funnier and kinder than you used to be. I liked you then, but I like you more now.

Nawh... I'm just getting softer as years pass me by. By the time I'm fifteen I'll be a soggy, 220 pounds blob... Seriously though, thank you. Now, stick around; I'll need your help to shred my Yi library for my hamsters.

Luis

 

[Sparhawk]

Bazooka cartoons could work as an oracle.

Bazooka cartoons?? Try these: Yi-toons

Yours truly irreverent take.

L

 

[Trojina]

Shame I can't read whats in the air bubbles, its too small.

I have this weird book of Yi toons. I quite like it.

 

[Sparhawk]

Shame I can't read whats in the air bubbles, its too small.

I have this weird book of Yi toons. I quite like it.

Perhaps I should put a little advise in the front page, but you can click on the cartoon and it will open a bigger window where you can read it well. Try it.

Luis

 

[martin]

I never guessed you and Chris would become an item. It makes sense.

I guess it does. And that's a big mystery. Because neither of us seems to think that the other makes much sense.

 

[Sparhawk]

I guess it does. And that's a big mystery. Because neither of us seems to think that the other makes much sense.

"The Dao that can me named is not the real Dao..." but that point and counterpoint you've been having with Chris is about to crack the shell of that ostrich egg... LOL

In the meantime, I'll try to find a brain to understand some of it...

L

 

[nicky_p]

nicky_p: You should post more. You’ve got a lot to say.

Hi Lindsay,
Is that a good thing? I'll take it as a good thing and say thanks for the encouragement
Nicky

 

[martin]

"The Dao that can me named is not the real Dao..." but that point and counterpoint you've been having with Chris is about to crack the shell of that ostrich egg... LOL

In the meantime, I'll try to find a brain to understand some of it...

L

No need to, Luis. The nonsense that you can make sense of is not the real nonsense.

 

[heylise]

http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/tinyYi.htm
View attachment 102
Going back to the beginning of this thread..
This is the Yi I use, since 1993. The one on top, I put it on Wilhem-Baynes to show the size. It has the complete Wilhelm (no Wings) and Ritsema (no word-meanings) in it. The only commentary it has, is Wilhelm's for the lines. Nowadays I also have my own, but I still carry this one with me in my pocket.

Hm.. inserting a picture does not work anymore, so I made a link to it.

LiSe

 

[mollies]

Your Yi

Is this a home-made Yibook? Copied from Wilhelm and Ritsema/Karcher?
It looks lovely and used...

Carin