literal "confined ignoramus" (!) 4.4 > 64

[redoleander]

"What is really going to come of this situation and having to be apart this week?"
4.4 > 64

[editing this because some people can't control themselves and use my posts to go on their anti-disabled rants. sorry to anyone actually interested in the reading]

Line 4 'Confined ignoramus -- shame'

Obviously I'm biased but I would have to agree!

Blofeld: Obstinacy and immaturity cause harm.
Siu: Clinging to folly inevitably means humiliation. The wise teacher may have to instruct by letting the subject experience the consequences of his errors.

Curious if anyone has any other thoughts?

 

[dfreed]

"What is really going to come of this situation and having to be apart this week?" 4.4 > 64

First, I'll say I'm a bit confused by your post. It seems you said you'd be apart while your wife goes to a music festival (and I thought, so, what's the big deal) - but then you talk about getting an AirBnB and sharing a place and masking, and ????

Regardless ... as to the reading, Hex. 4 is also called 'Inexperience' and one translation I'm fond of has Line 4.4 as, 'afflicted by ignorance; a shame.'

It's not saying you're an ignoramus (e.g. an idiot, fool, etc.) but only that you are entering into a situation which you are 'inexperiened' with - and may not have faced before.

Look at the trigrams (three line figures) - with Hex. 4 you have Water below indicating that this is a very emotional situation (and that perhaps you and/or your wife are acting from an emotional place), and so instead of stopping (to take time to consider what's going on), or simply not going (both meanings of trigram Mountain above), you did act, but this is not turning well.

.... I might say, 'this is not turning out as you expected' but it's hard to have expectations of a situation you've never faced before.

So, you acted out of inexperience (ignorance, not knowing), and next time you'll hopefully know better. In this case, you acted like 64's little fox crossing the stream: you got your tail wet - which 'is not a direction with merit' (but not the end of the world either)!

So perhaps (we hope!), that next time you have to cross this particular rough, emotional stream (water also being the lower trigram of 64), you'll have more clarity about what to do - clarity, or seeing clearly being one meaning of 64's upper trigram, Flame.

(Not to throw a wrench into the works, but trigram Flame can also be about feeling protected or creating a safe space. So, perhaps next time you can also consider just 'going along with the program' - for the sake of protecting and preserving your marriage! That's also an option!)

I hope that's of some use for you. D

 

[redoleander]

The Airbnb is where we live, so that we don’t both have to sleep at home. It’s five minutes from our house. It’s for when she gets back. Until she can get a COVID test. It’s so we both don’t have to mask at home. I didn’t travel. It takes 5-7 days to get an accurate COVID test, so we won’t stay together during that time.

anyway the reading turned out to have more meaning. She missed her flight and got stuck in another city! Poor thing. On her way back now but had a rough night.

the "big deal" is that I'm not fully vaccinated yet and it's high risk for me to be around someone doing all of those things. (this is all written in the original post btw)

 

[dfreed]

I'm mad and in a terrible mood but I laughed.

Line 4 'Confined ignoramus -- shame' ... Obviously I'm biased but I would have to agree!

(this is all written in the original post btw)

When you first talked about your wife traveling and then about an AirBnb (which I have also used when I'm traveling) I put those 'parts' together - and they didn't make sense, until ... and now I get what you're talking about - it was a simple misunderstanding.

Now that I've looked again at your original post, and at your follow-up, I'm still not sure: whom do you think is the 'ignoramus'? You, or your wife, or both of you?

Looking back at what I added, I can now see that it could apply to one or both of you: dealing with a situation that you are not familar with, e.g. that you are somewhat (or completely) ignorant about. But I still don't see it meaning that either you or your wife is stupid or an 'ignoramus' ....

... For me, that's not a very good translation, nor a good interpreation of the situation.

Interestingly, Richard Rutt's translation of that line is: 'Dodder in bundles. Distress.'

A 'dodder' is a rootless, leafless, invasive plant that can smother out crops. My sense is that it can be about something wild and unknown, and it does not benefit you or your wife to put it 'into bundles': similarly, this situation has its share of wildness and unpredicability to it, and it was - and maybe still is - unfavorable to try and make order out of it.

Best, D

 

[Liselle]

Wife gets my vote for protagonist in this particular case. (I'll happily claim that Yi said it and I'm merely agreeing .) I mean, if you go to a music festival during a pandemic, and then expect to come home to your not-yet-vaccinated, high-risk spouse as if nothing happened... nope.

But the reading seems to be just a statement of fact - she'll have to quarantine, and might (hopefully) be ashamed of herself.

 

[legume]

she'll have to quarantine, and might (hopefully) be ashamed of herself.

she won't have to if she's fully vaccinated, she doesn't even need to take the test. gee.

in my experience this line usually means the querent is making a fool out of themselves and whenever i ask Yi about a particular situation that involves me, it speaks to me. about me. with 64 in the background i'd say it could be never ending and so not sure there's a point of trying to make a point. but i'll throw in my 2 cents.

you choose to live in fear, obviously she doesn't. you chose prevention as in masking or airbnb, she goas along with it, okay. you bring all this drama from TV into your own household and then moan it involves extra cost - while there are already over the counter tests available, you insists she seeks medical assistance and yet you claim she's being irresponsible? how about a change of perspective and taking some responsibility yourself. the word obstinacy comes up in relation to this line and from what i read she accepts all your overreacting but she's not the one being stubborn or immature here.

 

[Liselle]

she won't have to if she's fully vaccinated, she doesn't even need to take the test. gee.

But the point isn't her risk, it's Redoleander's. He isn't yet fully vaccinated, and he says he's high-risk and so he has to be extra careful to avoid exposure.

I mean, it does say this, on the Centers for Disease Control site -



- but still, Redoleander is high-risk...

 

[redoleander]

she won't have to if she's fully vaccinated, she doesn't even need to take the test. gee.

in my experience this line usually means the querent is making a fool out of themselves and whenever i ask Yi about a particular situation that involves me, it speaks to me. about me. with 64 in the background i'd say it could be never ending and so not sure there's a point of trying to make a point. but i'll throw in my 2 cents.

you choose to live in fear, obviously she doesn't. you chose prevention as in masking or airbnb, she goas along with it, okay. you bring all this drama from TV into your own household and then moan it involves extra cost - while there are already over the counter tests available, you insists she seeks medical assistance and yet you claim she's being irresponsible? how about a change of perspective and taking some responsibility yourself. the word obstinacy comes up in relation to this line and from what i read she accepts all your overreacting but she's not the one being stubborn or immature here.

I can definitely see why you would often get this line referring to yourself.

(And the CDC recommendations literally say that you are supposed to mask around unvaccinated people. It takes 5-7 days to get an accurate COVID test. If you don't know the information, fine. If you're bad at researching, fine. But this could be another moment of clarity about why you get this line for yourself. It applies right now. Not all of us go around doing what you are doing here, so it might not apply to us in the way it applies to you.)

 

[redoleander]

Wife gets my vote for protagonist in this particular case. (I'll happily claim that Yi said it and I'm merely agreeing .) I mean, if you go to a music festival during a pandemic, and then expect to come home to your not-yet-vaccinated, high-risk spouse as if nothing happened... nope.

But the reading seems to be just a statement of fact - she'll have to quarantine, and might (hopefully) be ashamed of herself.

I did read it as a statement of fact, I definitely don't wish her feeling especially bad or anything but she definitely does often process consequences after taking action (as many of us do) and it just seemed very literal.

This thread itself shows how basic care for other human beings… makes some people really angry! At least I can be happy my wife, even with her impulsivity, could never be THAT much of a barbarian.

 

[redoleander]

I

. But I still don't see it meaning that either you or your wife is stupid or an 'ignoramus' ....

... For me, that's not a very good translation, nor a good interpreation of the situation.

Interestingly, Richard Rutt's translation of that line is: 'Dodder in bundles. Distress.'

A 'dodder' is a rootless, leafless, invasive plant that can smother out crops. My sense is that it can be about something wild and unknown, and it does not benefit you or your wife to put it 'into bundles': similarly, this situation has its share of wildness and unpredicability to it, and it was - and maybe still is - unfavorable to try and make order out of it.

Best, D

I agree with you! I don’t think it needs to be insulting or say that one of us is stupid. (I do think even smart people can sometimes make stupid decisions though). We both could be “stupid” for all I know, obviously I can only see from my point of view. I meant it in the sense that “confined” and needing to quarantine seemed aligned and doing something in a kind of innocence, without regard for consequence, is what the ignoramus is described as in the hexagram. It’s someone who is being childish or ignorant or not especially worldly. And the hexagram specifically says not to strike the ignoramus. It’s not a cruel hexagram but it is still referencing something true to life which is that sometimes people act without sight and sometimes that’s frustrating when it’s an adult doing so. But it also can’t be helped. People can’t do what they can’t see. The dodder in bundles translation is definitely interesting! Distress is definitely accurate. I think that’s the problem with situations that can’t be waited on for a more clear-headed time; the point here is that those actions caused a short-term crisis and it has to get responded to now, in some way, under high emotion or stress and it’s not really pleasant or great feeling to know that distress was totally optional. I’ll be fully vaccinated one month from now. There will be concerts one month from now that she could go to in a safer way.

 

[legume]

I can definitely see why you would often get this line referring to yourself.

But the point isn't her risk, it's Redoleander's. He isn't yet fully vaccinated, and he says he's high-risk and so he has to be extra careful to avoid exposure.

hence mentioned over the counter tests. but okay, i also get that may not be enough to get proper or timely results. and i understand the point re high risk but from what i read i believe the wife does too. she seems to be doing everything to keep her partner safe (agreeing to bnb and openly discussing redo's level of comfort). imo she did absolutely nothing wrong yet the fact most here seem ignorant about is that she's being (not consciously) punished for living her life and not living up to the level of expected fear (and on top of that she's shamed for it on a public forum by people who don't even know her). i'm also guessing redoleander doesn't walk her dog or go shopping out of fear of exposure? yet it's the wife who's not allowed to come home after a trip. my point is that it's worrisome that people view their family as a threat and are happy to involve government in their marriage without even realising that it's happening.

edit: apologies, didn't realise redoleander is a woman so corrected my mistake, i didn't mean to offend.

 

[redoleander]

(this reply is to legume, no one else)

I’m gay. We are two women. You’re really far behind on lots of things and I don’t have time to educate you. Good luck! Thanks for teaching me about how to not involve the government with my family though… we couldn’t even legally *get* married until a few years ago and I’m an anarchist, politically

If you can’t grasp the difference between the government and a virus, Im not sure how to help. Regardless of how I feel about the government (our government here has done nothing to protect us, by the way? our government is clearly just fine with everyone flying everywhere, spreading the new variants and so forth, because they care solely about profit not human life. nothing anti-establishment about being individualist...) it still is SCIENCE that your rapid COVID test isn’t accurate for 5-7 days. being ableist isn’t radical or intelligent.

enjoy your long future with this line!

 

[Liselle]

I’m gay. We are two women.

I didn't know (or remember) that either and referred to you as "he" - sorry, Redoleander . (I really need to start keeping basic notes about people here, I think - the idea of dossiers seems odd but getting things wrong isn't any better. The internet, argh.)

 

[redoleander]

I didn't know (or remember) that either and referred to you as "he" - sorry, Redoleander . (I really need to start keeping basic notes about people here, I think - the idea of dossiers seems odd but getting things wrong isn't any better. The internet, argh.)

I think it’s easy to confuse genders in a purposely vague and anonymous thread — doesn’t bother me at all. Thanks though

 

[dfreed]

[editing this because some people can't control themselves and use my posts to go on their anti-disabled rants. sorry to anyone actually interested in the reading]

I’m gay. We are two women.

Red Oleander: regardless of the varied interpretions of this reading, I applaude you for living your life and deciding to love whom you want to. And also for your mutual decisions on how best you want to keep each other safe.

And who knows, maybe someday we won't have 'the government' telling us who we should marry, or ... how many people we can marry, and you'll get yourself two wives! Or maybe one of each - a man and a woman - just to make things interesting.

(Okay ... now bringing head out of clouds ...) I understand why you deleted most of your original post, however, it now feels like we got the punchline of the joke, but not the joke itself ('joke' being just an analogy, and not a reference to your situation.)

However, at this point, you may have gotten what you needed out of the thread, and you feel it's time to move on.

Best, D (a straight guy, just in case you decide on that second spouse option! - assuming your state 'government' isn't too afraid to allow such things.)

 

[rosada]

4.4 "Staying in confinement would be shameful" - Hilary.
No need to quarantine.

I would read this as a specific response to your specific question rather than some philosophical discussion about vaccines/fear/ignorance blah, blah, blah, and as you updated, she missed the concert so there was no need to quarantine. Maybe open ended 64 is a reference to not completing the flight or perhaps saying there is more to be considered now, as in, would she need to quarantine from the trip to another city?

 

[redoleander]

She didn't miss the concert actually! She went to the concert. She missed her flight home and slept on the floor of an airport. Interesting to know it could mean quarantine isn't necessary. Unfortunately it's a pretty big risk to take on a "maybe" of a specific translation. So, not a legitimate option for me really... for immunocompromised people all air travel is a risk. It's not new to COVID. Illness is very easily passed in an airplane and during lots of time spent in public indoors (like an airport)

We are both confined, in a sense, because we didn't want to be apart for extra time and it's not good for either of us. It could apply to both of us, it could apply to her missing her flight and getting stuck, it could apply to the fact that the original airbnb we got her turned out to be nothing like the pictures and she felt bad there so we moved her (meaning we didn't know what it would really be like and then she felt stuck there, but then we chose to get her out instead of making her stay).

Yes, I think 64 is about there being these multiple steps trying to get to completion of this event but having a lot of problems. This was all during Mercury's station direct, too, which means Mercury is at a complete standstill from astrological perspective. Obviously things like travel and communication are going to get totally bungled! C'est la vie.

 

[redoleander]

.

 

[dfreed]

Yes, I think 64 is about there being these multiple steps trying to get to completion of this event but having a lot of problems ....

What's most striking for me about the Hex. 63-64 pair is that here the river crossing (Hex. 63's 'already across') comes before Hex. 64's 'not yet across' ....

It's like life: we complete a task (go to a concert, catch or miss a flight, go shopping, plant a new lawn ...), and then we have to either maintain, or care for, or deal with, or live with what we've done ... it just doesn't end there!

In ancient China, leaders often crossed rivers to attack their neighboring states, and to bring back prisoners of war (many of whom were brought back so they could be interrogated and then ritually killed as an offering to the ancestors).

But whatever the reason, upon making the river crossing, the king just didn't say to his troops, 'well, we made it across, and now we'll just sit here, because it's a done deal - 'we're already across'.

Or as Michael Corleone (played by Al Pachino) said in Godfather III, "just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in."

Best, D

 

[redoleander]

It's like life: we complete a task (go to a concert, catch or miss a flight, go shopping, plant a new lawn ...), and then we have to either maintain, or care for, or deal with, or live with what we've done ... it just doesn't end there!

There really so much wisdom, the kind that really can only come from a combination of observation and connection to source, in the hexagrams. Nothing is ever just "done" and it's easy to suffer a lot that this means something is wrong. Being so upset about things wasn't actually a necessary component of the situation; just taking the practical steps. But... that's hard. Sometimes feelings do get in the way. In a certain respect nothing is ever actually wrong, it's more just about recognizing what's happening in order to respond. I get a lot of that in 64. "So you think you're across, well I have news" haha

 

[diamant]

What is really going to come of this situation and having to be apart this week? 4.4 > 64

Your question is about what will happen after this week.

Maybe your wife will test positive, or develop symptoms, and won't come across to you yet.
Covid is airborne, it lingers in the air for hours depending on conditions.
It's extremely easy to catch, in NSW in Australia a woman caught it while sitting outside a cafe.
It's obvious that she has to remain confined for now, as being vaccinated with the particular current vaccines does not stop you from catching it and transmitting it.
Because of line 4.4, she still won't recognise any mistakes she has made.

The additional Xiang Zhuan original comment adds that the one who is trapped/confined is 'stingy', while the one who keeps their distance from others is 'wealthy, honest, firm'. Did you have to argue your case to get these measures with her in place?

Air travel is high risk, concerts are high risk. I wouldn't do those if my partner was vulnerable.

 

[redoleander]

What is really going to come of this situation and having to be apart this week? 4.4 > 64

Your question is about what will happen after this week.

Maybe your wife will test positive, or develop symptoms, and won't come across to you yet.
Covid is airborne, it lingers in the air for hours depending on conditions.
It's extremely easy to catch, in NSW in Australia a woman caught it while sitting outside a cafe.
It's obvious that she has to remain confined for now, as being vaccinated with the particular current vaccines does not stop you from catching it and transmitting it.
Because of line 4.4, she still won't recognise any mistakes she has made.

The additional Xiang Zhuan original comment adds that the one who is trapped/confined is 'stingy', while the one who keeps their distance from others is 'wealthy, honest, firm'. Did you have to argue your case to get these measures with her in place?

Air travel is high risk, concerts are high risk. I wouldn't do those if my partner was vulnerable.

Thank you for this! You know, it's very accurate. She apologized once and then flipped back to insisting she was right. She is now convinced that I am the problem here (which I fear saying since someone came to attack me in this thread but whatever, I am not actually asking for anything unreasonable since she knows I have health concerns and asked me to be her wife). So, yes, in this situation she's the 'stingy' one for sure and it really is interesting because originally I took it to mean she would feel regret and I felt bad for her but it really appears that's not the case. It seems like maybe this coming up as what will happen after this week implies it is part of a larger rift between us? I mean, I can't say I like having to argue basic science with my own wife when it's so personal to me.

 

[rosada]

The fourth position is the position of the teacher or guide, but 4 is the hexagram of the Inexperienced One. thus 4.4 - 64 describes a brand new experience - you have no similar previous experience to teach or guide you or tell you what will happen next or where you will go from here. 64 advises using extreme caution because right at the end something could go wrong. Interesting that it was at after the concert on the way home just Before Completion that the problem with the missed plane happened. (If nothing else, your experience has given me a much clearer understanding of the warning in 64 - thank you!) Also might be significant that it is now, after completing the actual trip but before you two have settled back into your routine, that the real issues have come up. The Image - or key take away - "The superior man is careful in the differentation of things so each finds its place." could mean you now have to evaluate how much significance to give this whole incident?
Coincidentally, yesterday I dropped in on an old friend. We are visiting from out of town so this was the one moment I could see her. She'd been sick so although she seemed totally fine now we met outside but I did hug her. When we got back in the car my husband was furious (I knew he was furious because he got really calm). He couldn't believe I would be so thoughtless of him and our health and covid risks as to hug her! I listened and then tried to assure him she and I were both confident she was well. He sighed and that was the end of it. I think he decided "You can't fix stupid." Maybe that should be another meaning for 4.4!