Original and relating Hexagrams

[luz]

Initially, I had thought that the relating hexagram was meant to be 'the future'. In that context, it made sense that having Hex A converting to B was very different from having Hex B converting to A.
However, after seeing that there can be many different relationships between A and B, not precluding scenarios in which A preceeds B and viceversa,
My question is:
Is there a big difference when you get Hex A -> Hex B or Hex B -> Hex A for the same question???

I know that this is very generic and each case will be different, but for instance, for the question "What is the potential in this relationship"? Is there are difference between getting

2.3 -> 8 and getting
8.3 -> 2

I'll appreciate your comments on this. Thanks.

 

[luz]

I meant 2.5 -> 8 and 8.5-> 2 !
Sorry!
How do you edit previuos postings?

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, I think there's a big difference.

If you draw 2.5, it's talking about power presenting itself modestly, and the whole thing being supremely fortunate.

Whereas if you draw 8.5, it's talking about a maneuver by leadership to draw to itself those who are most interested in uniting themselves around the leader, and this is also fortunate.

So, in connection to 'what's the potential in this relationship?', 2.5 talks about a modest presentation of one's power in relation to the other person, whereas 8.5 talks about letting the other person join the relationship or run off, as they choose.

 

[luz]

But in the end, in both cases there is an emphasis in letting things be.
8.5 is the 'fan yao' of 2.5, right?
So in both readings you have to read both lines. Or, is there a different way to apply the 'fan yao'? (please correct me if I'm calling it the wrong name). I'm also interested in knowing this because I get a lot of hexagrams with a good prognostication in the changing line and then the equivalent line in the resulting hex (I'll keep calling it the fy) sounds pretty bad. This is confusing, even more than in the case of multiple changing lines that are contradictory because in that case they can be alternatives, etc.
Thanks for you help.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Lightangel-
I wouldn't say you need to read the fan yao (this is a term that I made up & means reverse line). It is certainly not necessary as part of the divination. This is merely a thing useful to look at if you want to better understand the original changing line since (at least in my opinion) the authors reflected on this line while writing the texts. Some are very relevant and even use the same images, some don't seem to relate at all.

 

[luz]

Thank you Bradford!
That really clears things up a lot.
In that case, my original question is totally irrelevant. There IS a big difference if you discount the fan yao.
And, Dobro, I think you ar the one who doesn't believe in the relating hexagram, right? Even more of a dumb question in that case!

Bradford, you also talk about cumulative changes, I think it is which is a way of going through the changing lines as they take you to relating hexagrams where you pick up the next changing line and so forth. I suppose that this also sometimes makes things clearer but not always. So is this something that you do to see if you get insight but if you don't you just discard it?

Thanks!

 

[dobro p]

"And, Dobro, I think you ar the one who doesn't believe in the relating hexagram, right? Even more of a dumb question in that case!"

I challenged that whole idea of the relating hexagram once here, yeah, cuz I didn't see it and I wanted to hear what people had to say about it. But I've started to reconsider, especially with hexagrams with a lot of changing lines. However, I still think it's unlikely that 2.5 *always* has Hex 8 as an outcome.

 

[luz]

Well, from what I read in this forum, Hex 8 doesn't have to be the outcome. It could be the background, and a great many other things. Martin listed a whole list in one posting.
In that light, I agree with you in that
a) 2.5 will not always lead to 8 and
b) if you don't have a good inkling of what Hex 8 is and it might not always be the outcome of 2.5, then it might not be that important to your reading.
Thanks for your input.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Lightangel-
The cumulative change method, known as Transitional Hexagrams, is fairly new as far as I know, co-discovered by Mondo Secter and myself in the mid-seventies. But given the thousands of volumes written in Chinese, it's likely not new at all.
It makes more sense to me because it tracks the Zhi Gua for each changing line. Still in beta testing: like all of our current theories, only the centuries will tell.

 

[bradford_h]

One more thing-
the Zhi Gua or "relating" hexagram, more properly called the Resultant hexagram, indicates a direction or vector, not a destination. If you had one titled North it would mean that you are headed northward at this paticular moment, but not that you were going to wind up on the artic pole.

 

[candid]

Very cool, Brad. That accounts for the almost fluid application quality of Zhi Gua: like a winding stream that moves toward the ocean.

 

[candid]

Or maybe not? A stream is quite destined for the ocean.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Candid-
Being a white water boatman, that winding stream is also an image I've had for the Zhi Gua bearings thru the transitions. Life and its gooseneck meanderings!
The ocean's much later.

 

[candid]

Understood.

 

[kevin]

Another view:

Agreeing with the transitional hexagram idea as a vector.

However I think it is not all that useful to tie an oracle down too tightly? and our minds love to do that.

From experience I have found that the second hexagram can offer an astonishing insight to the overall situation and the first hexagram the situation within that with the key advice contained in the line.

Here the ?Sea is the situation in which the first hexagram swims'.

But there again my background is sailing the sea - working the tidestreams and currents as one makes ones way.

--Kevin