Principle of magical thinking

[dobro p]

I feel like adding that formulaic rules about divining probably isn't the best approach, for instance that the word "should" in a question is a red flag.

I was describing my take on *what* magical thinking is in relation to using the Yi, not laying down the law for *how* people should or shouldn't use it.

But your response is interesting, and for more than one reason. You said 'divining'. Here are two definitions I got from Mr Google:

divination: the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means

supernatural: (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature

My guess is that if a Yi user thinks of what they're doing as divining, that there's probably at least an element of magical thinking at work. (And yes, we may have to talk about and define magical thinking, because there's a form of it that's valid, I think!)

I think Yi knows when we've done what we can.

I think so too.

If we haven't, it still might choose to help. Or it might not. A lot like a good parent, as Hilary points out the Dazhuan says...

Like a parent?

Writing lately about ways Yi helps reminded me of possibly my favourite chapter of the Dazhuan (the 'Great Treatise', 5th and 6th Wings of the Yijing): 'Yi is a document that should not be set at a distance. Its dao is ever-changing, alternating and moving without rest, flowing through the six vacan

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

Yes, that's a good comparison, I think. (And better, incidentally, than you could possibly imagine for me personally - thanks!)

But you talk of 'Yi' as though it's something other. And this is where I was hoping the exchange with The Hermit might eventually go, but since you're here and now, and since you're such an experienced and thoughtful user of the oracle, I'll ask you:

What is the Yi? Or, when you think of Yi, what's your take on it?

 

[Liselle]

That's a big question, but I think it's a divinely-inspired, intentionally oracular book that God speaks through. (Internalizing this is very much a work in progress for me.)

Yi's been known to give hexagram 48 when asked about itself, which makes sense to me. Something man-made and relatively fragile which connects with something that's neither of those. Something finite which tries to reach the limitless.

(And yes, we may have to talk about and define magical thinking, because there's a form of it that's valid, I think!)

I like how you put that.

An example of what seems like magical thinking to me: "I lost my job, but I won't run out of money."

I agree with Hermit that this can be brought on by trauma. It's understandable. Might even be a useful coping mechanism if it's not taken too far. Being overwhelmed by fright or the hugeness of one's problems isn't helpful, either. But when it really becomes magical thinking is when "even if I don't do anything about it" is implicitly tacked onto the end.

Yi even seems like a magical-thinking antidote sometimes. Example: I ask how I can get motivated, and Yi replies, "Fear."

I've gotten that answer. But it was accompanied or preceded by advice. If I'm still not motivated, then some fear is probably needed...

 

[dobro p]

(And yes, we may have to talk about and define magical thinking, because there's a form of it that's valid, I think!)

Liselle: I like how you put that.

Paul: The reason I said that was because if you define magical thinking as any kind of thought, belief or approach which is not strictly logical or verified by science, then you box yourself into a corner best described as 'bloodless and dry-as-dust'. There is a lot of life and meaning, a lot of wisdom and skill, a lot of *living* which is not physically measurable, scientifically verifiable, logically acceptable. It all depends how you define the term. The online takes on it I've come across while I've been in this thread have pretty much consistently given it a bad name. That's why, with The Hermit, I'm all 'define your terms, and THEN we'll have a conversation about what it's worth'.

 

[my_key]

Reading down through the thread over recent posts there seems to be a new flavour being introduced.

Terms for magical thinking by some of the earlier posters focused on it as a negative way things are looked to define it very firmly in the psychological, logical and scientific arenas.
For me, it can reside in the realms of psychology, yet less so in logical or scientific fields. Magical Thinking does not, for me, purely obey rules of logic or mainstream science. It is what it says on the tin and when exploring the principle behind it, which was the original question, I would agree with Liselle that Magical Thinking emanates from a taste and aroma of the Divine.

Maybe all thoughts do ! As I said in one of the posts above 'Where do thoughts come from and where do they go?'. The ones that pass through or bring with them a greater state of joy are helpful. Those that remain beyond their sell by date or become stuck in the foreground of the subconscious are unhelpful. Magical thinking equally holds two opposing sides: light and dark; heads and tails.

Connection with Magical Thinking is something that I see as children being born with. ("The Force is strong with this one !!"). Human conditioning, either through authority, nurture, social or culture based wounding can severely distort or break the connection. I would agree with The Hermit that trauma is a key player in restricting connection. As an aside the word trauma originates in Greek meaning wound.

From a psychological perspective, trauma wounds do lead to an inability to beneficially utilise Magical Thinking as a multitude of demons emanating from the wound can easily agglomerate, take up residency and rule the roost. There is a condition named Magical Thinking OCD that points towards the extremes of the negative side of Magical Thinking. Healing of the wound can bring a positive reversal though. People with anxiety, panic attacks, depression etc can align with Magical Thinking to improve distorted world views that have developed in their psyche. Additionally a simple connection with magical thinking are the rituals of 'wishing on a star' or ' crossing your fingers for luck' and a multitude of other such like activity. These bring comfort into many lives and may not necessarily be negative character traits.

Trauma at an early age does inhibit and change the patterns of brain development and so adults who have experienced unpleasant things in their formative years will find it more difficult to engage in the positive aspects of Magical Thinking. The negative aspects will, if not checked, spill over and infect the reality of their already restricted world. It is important to remember that healing of the wounds will bring opportunities for reconnection.

For many, engaging with Magical Thinking requires a developed and stable sense of presence. Trauma is an accomplished robber of presence. It is not alone and there are a shed load of other associated outlaws. 'Shoulds', most likely, come from a place where the outlaws have set up their stronghold or camp.

The beauty of the I Ching is that it is a cornucopia of symbols and images that provide an unerring catalyst for Magical Thinking to be experienced. Whether the Magical Thinking is perceived as a light or dark presence results from how well the conduit has been maintained and the size and amount of blockages that have accumulated.

.. of course it may be nothing like this at all for you.

 

[Liselle]

, I would agree with Liselle that Magical Thinking emanates from a taste and aroma of the Divine.

Well... it depends. The sort of magical thinking that's I wouldn't call divine at all, it might even be tuning out the divine in certain circumstances.

Magical thinking that's anything not scientifically verifiable - including the I Ching and other constructive communication from the universe - that could be divine.

There's probably magical thinking that's quite dark and destructive, and I don't think that's divine, either, but this is getting over my head now.

 

[rosada]

Caller: Doctor! Please come quickly! My husband is terribly sick.
Doctor: Oh calm down I’m sure it’s not so bad. He probably just thinks he’s sick.
An hour later…
Caller : Never mind, Doctor, there’s no need for you to come.
Doctor: Why? Doesn’t your husband still think he’s sick?
Caller: Nope. Now he thinks he’s dead.

 

[The Hermit]

@Liselle @dobro p @my_key and whoever is interested... This is a clarifying story about MT trauma. Hope to read your comments.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-01-08/the-child-who-thinks-she-can-fly-natures-way-of-dealing-with-trauma

 

[The Hermit]

Caller: Doctor! Please come quickly! My husband is terribly sick.
Doctor: Oh calm down I’m sure it’s not so bad. He probably just thinks he’s sick.
An hour later…
Caller : Doctor! You really must come!
Doctor: Why? Does your husband still think he’s sick?
Caller: Nope. Now he thinks he’s dead.

Another version:

Caller: Psychic! Please I need to know what to do! My husband is very sick.
Psychic: Yes, I can see it in your cast. But you draw a very good relating hexagram. Don't worry.
An hour later...
Caller: Psychic! An update!
Psychic: What happened? Did he improve?
Caller: No, he died from a massive heart attack. What should I do now?

 

[dobro p]

@Liselle @dobro p @my_key and whoever is interested... This is a clarifying story about MT trauma. Hope to read your comments.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-01-08/the-child-who-thinks-she-can-fly-natures-way-of-dealing-with-trauma

It sheds no light on either the I Ching or on your motivation for posting it. What's it got to do with the I Ching?

 

[my_key]

Well... it depends. The sort of magical thinking that's I wouldn't call divine at all, it might even be tuning out the divine in certain circumstances.

I paraphrased your words in my post. Speaking about the I Ching you originally said "but I think it's a divinely-inspired, intentionally oracular book that God speaks through." Sorry that I took the word divine out of your context, and I attached the word Divine to the source of Magical Thinking.

The roots of 'inspiration' lie in meanings spirit, breath and conveys the sense of blowing spiritual influence into a person. They are enflamed by a sense of the divine or a supernatural being-ness, in the sense ‘impart a truth or idea to someone’.

I'm not really sure what you mean by but would challenge the concept that Magical Thinking, has only one form and that is for the good. After all, the major spiritual traditions seem to agree, in one way or another, that all things exist within God only.

Magical thinking that's anything not scientifically verifiable - including the I Ching and other constructive communication from the universe - that could be divine.

Again, from my perspective Magical Thinking does not have to facilitate constructive communication. The I Ching, carries archetypal, intentional wisdom conveyed in the symbols or images (including the words) to assist this however I believe that it acknowledges the existence of destructive or negative communication within the Judgement of Hex 4.

There's probably magical thinking that's quite dark and destructive, and I don't think that's divine, either, but this is getting over my head now.

I'm not sure any of us has a clear picture on any of this. I think we are all in above our heads. I do agree with you that there is Magical Thinking that can impose or create dark and destructive behaviours. I would contend though that whether positive or negative it all falls under God's umbrella.

Take Care

PS - I have no idea how this attachment came up at the bottom of the page and all my efforts to delete it have proved unsuccessful.

 

[The Hermit]

It sheds no light on either the I Ching or on your motivation for posting it. What's it got to do with the I Ching?

My motivation is the same as before. There is correlation between trauma, magical thinking and the use of cleromancy devices like IC, Tarot, or others. So if we explore divination here, the why we use it should be as important to us as the how we use it.

@dobro p if you can't get passed this point, if you do no grasp this basic thing, I would suggest refraining to comment from now on. If not, I will extricate myself from explaining anything further to you. But if you do get it, if you do understand that how someting is done is as important as why it is done, then I am open to continue the exchange.

The original post by @dracon was about the guiding principle behind MT. The IC is used to predict outcomes or generate knowledge to confront possible outcomes, through insightful ideation which occurs when resonance happens as you stated so candidly. But it does not happen always.

Sometimes yes, but many times IC is unable to shed light on anything, even experienced users will ask others to interpret about their castings on this site, and many times the alternative interpretation feels also very off or we try to squeeze them in somehow, just to make any sense of it. And sometimes IC answers feel even vicious and almost sarcastic with no insight but more hurt. Someone said tough love. I don't think so. Its abuse. Self abuse.

That is the very definition of intermitent reinforcement of trauma. Its like a drunk father or mother. Sometimes loving, sometime a real assh***. When loving and positive, he/she mobilize us, we trust in us, but in reality we outsourced that trust to the ambivalent parental figure or the IC. Sometimes he/she is irrational and cruel and we get stuck, we freeze, we tremble in fear because of his/her admonishments.

What do we gain when exposing ourselves as adults to these MT dynamics brought to us by using cleromancy devices? We sooth ourselves, because the abuse, the retraumatizing event triggered in the present linked to past trauma is acknowledged by ourselves as real. We feel we "control" it, apparently, as we wish, casting or not casting about it. What we don't perceive is the development of dependency towards the use of the device (Tarot, Runes, Ic, etc.) and incremental OCD. Does it happen to everybody? No. And not everybody is an alcoholic for drinking too much. But if you continue drinking without limits over time, you will develope dependency from alcohol and sooner then later end up a chronic alcohol abuser aka an alcoholic.

My claim, as I said in begining, is that the use of these devices will continue feeding on a trauma bond experience we suppressed or dissociated us from happened in childhood. Its been re-triggered by an event in the present. So you can choose to cast a reading or you can choose to address the triggered trauma. You could also admit that you feel lonely, bored, clueless and anxious, accept yourself even when you feel bad about yourself and emerge mentally stronger on the other side. But can you really do that?

*disclaimer: when editing, I do it only when I find something I mispelled, never to alter the content.

 

[Liselle]

PS - I have no idea how this attachment came up at the bottom of the page and all my efforts to delete it have proved unsuccessful.

The extra attachment - if you edit your post and look at it, hopefully you'll see a trash can in the upper right-hand corner. Click that to delete it. If you already tried that and it didn't work, we'll just have to stay puzzled, I guess, unless someone else has an idea.


Then check your post and make sure the images you want are still there.

I think how this happens is if you remove an image from the body of the post using the delete key or backspacing over it. That will remove it there, but it won't remove it as an attachment - for that you have to click the trash can.

I'm not really sure what you mean by

Sticking fingers in ears and shutting your eyes, burying your head in the sand, tuning out things you ought to pay attention to - however you'd describe that. Like my example about losing your job and thinking you won't run out of money. At some point that becomes .

 

[my_key]

The extra attachment - if you edit your post and look at it, hopefully you'll see a trash can in the upper right-hand corner. Click that to delete it. If you already tried that and it didn't work, we'll just have to stay puzzled, I guess, unless someone else has an idea.
View attachment 5316

Then check your post and make sure the images you want are still there.

I think how this happens is if you remove an image from the body of the post using the delete key or backspacing over it. That will remove it there, but it won't remove it as an attachment - for that you have to click the trash can.

Missed the trash can completely. All fixed now. Thanks.

Sticking fingers in ears and shutting your eyes, burying your head in the sand, tuning out things you ought to pay attention to - however you'd describe that. Like my example about losing your job and thinking you won't run out of money. At some point that becomes .

Thanks. Using psychological terms you could say avoidance or, in extreme cases, dissociation, contribute to tuning out the divine. I can align with that.

 

[Liselle]

Thanks. Using psychological terms you could say avoidance or, in extreme cases, dissociation, contribute to tuning out the divine. I can align with that.

Except I for one don't understand half the psychological terms in this thread for the good reason that I'm not a psychologist.

 

[Liselle]

My motivation is the same as before. There is correlation between trauma, magical thinking and the use of cleromancy devices like IC, Tarot, or others. So if we explore divination here, the why we use it should be as important to us as the how we use it.

@dobro p if you can't get passed this point, if you do no grasp this basic thing, I would suggest refraining to comment from now on. If not, I will extricate myself from explaining anything further to you. But if you do get it, if you do understand that how someting is done is as important as why it is done, then I am open to continue the exchange.

The original post by @dracon was about the guiding principle behind MT. The IC is used to predict outcomes or generate knowledge to confront possible outcomes, through insightful ideation which occurs when resonance happens as you stated so candidly. But it does not happen always.

Sometimes yes, but many times IC is unable to shed light on anything, even experienced users will ask others to interpret about their castings on this site, and many times the alternative interpretation feels also very off or we try to squeeze them in somehow, just to make any sense of it. And sometimes IC answers feel even vicious and almost sarcastic with no insight but more hurt. Soneone said tough love. I don't rhink so. Its abuse. Self abuse.

That is the very definition of intermitent reinforcement of trauma. Its like a drunk father or mother. Sometimes loving, sometime a real assh***. When loving and positive, he/she mobilize us, we trust in us, but in reality we outsourced that trust to the ambivalent parental figure or the IC. Sometimes he/she is irrational and cruel and we get stuck, we freeze, we tremble in fear because of his/her admonishments.

What do we gain when exposing ourselves as adults to these MT dynamics brought to us by using cleromancy devices? We sooth ourselves, because the abuse, the retraumatizing event triggered in the present linked to past trauma is acknowledged by ourselves as real. We feel we "control" it, apparently, as we wish, casting or not casting about it. What we don't perceive is the development of dependency towards the use of the device (Tarot, Runes, Ic, etc.) and incremental OCD. Does it happen to everybody? No. And not everybody is an alcoholic for drnking too much. But if you continue drinking without limits over time, you will develope dependency from alcohol and sooner then later end up a chronic alcohol abuser aka an alcoholic.

My claim, as I said in begining, is that the use of these devices will continue feeding on a trauma bond experience we suppressed or dissociated us from happened in childhood. Its been re-triggered by an event in the present. So you can choose to cast a reading or you can choose to address the triggered trauma. You could also admit that you feel lonely, bored, clueless and anxious, accept yourself even when you feel bad about yourself and emerge mentally stronger on the other side. But can you really do that?

Hermit, this is tricky.

On the one hand, I'm not going to say you don't have a point at all. It's easy enough to misuse an oracle, and that could be a perfectly valid topic for a forum called Exploring Divination.

On the other hand - this could also be construed as coming on an I Ching forum to tell people they shouldn't cast readings. Analogy: going on a forum dedicated to dessert recipes for the purpose of telling everyone about the evils of sugar. You might mean well, but guess how that would be received?

Tread lightly, I guess is what I'm suggesting. For instance, you probably won't advance your point by saying the I Ching is irrational, drunk, and devoid of insight. Do you see how that's different from pointing out Yi isn't always kind, doesn't always give out hugs? Most of us have experienced the non-hugs, but we don't think Yi's irrational or drunk.

Also - since the non-hugs are a thing - I think Yi is well-placed to deliver these messages itself.

Another version:

Caller: Psychic! Please I need to know what to do! My husband is very sick.
Psychic: Yes, I can see it in your cast. But you draw a very good relating hexagram. Don't worry.
An hour later...
Caller: Psychic! An update!
Psychic: What happened? Did he improve?
Caller: No, he died from a massive heart attack. What should I do now?

I don't think it's really "another version." I don't think the two are equivalent, if that's what you meant (?). In Rosada's, the person called a doctor and the doctor abdicated his responsibility.

In yours, the person didn't do the normal, sensible, real-world things. She only called a psychic. I figure virtually all of us would agree that's not a good use of an oracle. Although there are certainly good questions a person could ask Yi in that sort of situation.

 

[The Hermit]

Hermit, this is tricky.

On the one hand, I'm not going to say you don't have a point at all. It's easy enough to misuse an oracle, and that could be a perfectly valid topic for a forum called Exploring Divination.

On the other hand - this could also be construed as coming on an I Ching forum to tell people they shouldn't cast readings. Analogy: going on a forum dedicated to dessert recipes for the purpose of telling everyone about the evils of sugar. You might mean well, but guess how that would be received?

Tread lightly, I guess is what I'm suggesting. For instance, you probably won't advance your point by saying the I Ching is irrational, drunk, and devoid of insight. Do you see how that's different from pointing out Yi isn't always kind, doesn't always give out hugs? Most of us have experienced the non-hugs, but we don't think Yi's irrational or drunk.

Also - since the non-hugs are a thing - I think Yi is well-placed to deliver these messages itself.


I don't think it's really "another version." I don't think the two are equivalent, if that's what you meant (?). In Rosada's, the person called a doctor and the doctor abdicated his responsibility.

In yours, the person didn't do the normal, sensible, real-world things. She only called a psychic. I figure virtually all of us would agree that's not a good use of an oracle. Although there are certainly good questions a person could ask Yi in that sort of situation.

Three things I have to say about your comment.

First one. Is warning people about illness provoking substances (refined sugar) or things (oracles) ethically incorrect, especially if you offer alternative solutions or viable substitutes? If you are saying nobody cares on this site about these warnings, then you are attribuiting yourself the role of a spokes(wo)man. I am not sure you are. You admitted yourself you neither have the knowledge nor the intent to educate yourself on these matters, even though Internet in 2023 provides you with it, since you are not a "psychologist". Ignorance is not good for people speaking for others.

Secondly, why we use divination is a pertinent point to explore and the intent to organize threads thru a search system as seen on this site proves it. To organize something is to give it rationality through differentiation, to see the similarities and differences. It encourages discussion, either by sharing our point of view with others or by gaining clarity within. It is especially important when dealing with the domains of the irrational. Divination is part of that realm.

Third. No responsable doctor or physician would react to an emergency like @rosada 's funny but faulty way of depicting it, shows. Not even a psychiatrist, and those are pretty irresponsable when it comes to prescribing drugs for example. But people assign so much authority to IC, Astrology and other cleromancy, my version is actually based on how psychics and their clients operate in reality. The man is dead (i.e. the relationship is over) but we still won"t know how to deal with it, we have lost trust in ourselves and turned it over to somebody or something else.

 

[my_key]

I'm reading these latest posts and thinking that the subject matter is moving away from the original topic of the principles behind magical thinking. Dracon has left the building, it seems, after a cameo appearance in Act 1. His comments or replies to some of the early points made in this post would be most welcomed by me.

Now, via The Hermit, topics seem to be being introduced around the impact of role of trauma in restricting human development; relationship of psychics to their clients and the correlation between trauma, magical thinking and the use of cleromancy devices like IC. It is important when speaking of correlation to remember that correlation does not necessarily mean causality. While valid topics of exploration they all miss the mark of addressing the the thing we set out to explore i.e. the principle behind Magical Thinking.

Cleromancy is but a sub set of Magical Thinking and focus on this alone limits the glory that could be found in this thread.

I am also aware of the aggressive tone in some of the posts, that @Liselle picked up on. These started with the comments pointed towards @dobrop saying in effect 'Play the game by my rules or I'm going home and taking my ball with me'. Similarly, I see the comments towards Liselle and rosada in post #46 carrying a disparaging tone, disempowering content and lacking in empathy.

@ The Hermit - I'm not saying that you do not have the right to express yourself in what ever way you like, however a large part of effective communication, especially if you really want it to be two way, is to consider carefully how your transmissions will be received. Of course, for people who are tuned in only to transmit then this will not be a natural consideration for them.

Cleromancy has been around for a very long time. I first tuned in with it after reading the book 'The Dice Man' by Luke Rhinehart. He first uses dice rolls to base life decisions on without having any awareness of anything magical or psychic going on. He gradually dabbles with darker and darker scenarios in which to roll the dice and to follow mindlessly what they say to him. Fascinating read !!

Linking with Magical Thinking, without cleromancy, can be seen as depicted in the film 'Yes Man' starring Jim Carrey. No drawing of lots here just a journey of self discovery after accepting a challenge to enter into an agreement of acceptance with the Universe. Similarly for Jim being drawn down this path led him into an unbalanced relationship with Magical Thinking which leads to some dark moments for him. The magical conclusion to the film with a whole convention of people having divested themselves of their cloths does show the power of magical thinking.

Magical Thinking and cleromancy are by no means one and the same thing and treating them as such does each a disservice.

Equally, lumping issues where "we have lost trust in ourselves and turned it over to somebody or something else" into this same boat does a huge disservice to trauma sufferers. People become disempowered or give there power away every day. This is an important topic too and certainly deserves an airing beyond a thread based in the I Ching.

 

[Liselle]

Moderator comment: thread tangents are okay. It's equally okay to pick the original gist back up.

Another option, of course, if anyone wants to develop some specific thing in depth, is to start another thread and link back and forth.

MyKey, see your private conversations, please.


Non-moderator comments: Hermit, I'm not going to become a psychologist via Google. You may not quite have meant it like that - ?

But I could have stayed out of a thread that clearly requires specialized knowledge.

For what it's worth, when I compared Yi to a parent, I meant an  ideal parent. If you at all believe what speaks through the I Ching is a higher power, which I've come to believe and you're perfectly free to disagree with (it's not like any of us know, after all), then no matter how old we are, we're not God and thus still could use a "parent" on that level. An ideal parent doesn't always say yes or feed his children every answer. Neither does Yi.

 

[Trojina]

Moderator comment: thread tangents are okay. It's equally okay to pick the original gist back up.

I am also aware of the aggressive tone in some of the posts, that @Liselle picked up on. These started with the comments pointed towards @dobrop saying in effect 'Play the game by my rules or I'm going home and taking my ball with me'. Similarly, I see the comments towards Liselle and rosada in post #46 carrying a disparaging tone, disempowering content and lacking in empathy.

@ The Hermit - I'm not saying that you do not have the right to express yourself in what ever way you like, however a large part of effective communication, especially if you really want it to be two way, is to consider carefully how your transmissions will be received. Of course, for people who are tuned in only to transmit then this will not be a natural consideration for them.

Re the above

Another moderator comment is, as I think you are aware, it is against forum rules to discuss another member's character and behaviour like this in the public forums. If you do need to do this then the thread needs to go over to the Moderation area, that is mods can move the part of the conversation involved over there so things can be discussed more freely. Alternatively you can just report the posts that you object to so that it can be dealt with 'behind the scenes'.

 

[The Hermit]

@Liselle, actually you are right. I never meant it like that.

We use words like trauma, ego, neurotic, psyche, depression, narcissistic, bipolar, etc. with certain ease now.

Maybe they entered the Overton window. Its an interesting theory trying to explain why certain discourses (i.e certain words) become politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time. Well I think these words are here. We can use them to explain what is happening to us and to others. Even if we use them incorrectly for the first time, others will help through discussion to rectify, or at least I hope so. No shame in learning something for the first time either.

 

[The Hermit]

Equally, lumping issues where "we have lost trust in ourselves and turned it over to somebody or something else" into this same boat does a huge disservice to trauma sufferers. People become disempowered or give there power away every day. This is an important topic too and certainly deserves an airing beyond a thread based in the I Ching.

@my_key, I have a theory. Help me out please. Here it is. To my knowledge, IC is a divination device, based on archaic pictographic elaborations (drawings) of shamans during the Upper Paleolithic, who used petroglyphs (drawings on stones) sometimes to signal places on Earth where “magic” happened. Is this accurate?

Let me elaborate a little further. What kind of magic do I think it was? I tend to think, it was like the two fault lines converging under the Delphi Oracle in Greece. Closed places, like caves where certain gases (maybe ethylene?) were released from underground, inducing hallucinations.

Or maybe even healing properties from certain diseases, providing the shaman a small theatrical miracle to assert his or her benefitial power over the group. I think they were clever, smart people, the smartest of them all. Remember Floki, from the Vikings on Netflx? Crazy but hey, that dude was resilient and alive. Is it possible?

I am also convinced the shamans knew about of these spots, they probably got high there, to induce trance. Shamans were leaders because they knew s***, so it would not surprise me at all. Some places were very sacred, like the Bruniquel Cave in France, it would probably fit four to five shamans from different hunter gathered groups, a primitive diplomatic meeting if you like, among Neanderthals as mentioned by the late french archaeologist F. Rouzaud (1996). Is there more evidence? Is it verified?

So I am inclined to believe that shamans are the original authors of the pictographic essence of the IC, they got high like crazy and later put a show on for the people to give life a meaning, a reason to be, they had soul. Much much later, there came the text, when everything probably needed to be hammered down into political submission during the bloody Bronze Age. But that would be another theory though.

Now help me out here. Could this stick? Is it plausible? If not, why not? Thank you, your imput has been great, the flavour has certainly changed in this thread.

I´ll leave you with a link as thank you for pointing out the importance of acknowledging trauma, I am no joking, that was great. Thank you. Read this please. Its mind blowing.

Neanderthals, the World’s First Misunderstood Artists​

Neanderthals, the World’s First Misunderstood Artists (Published 2018)

Cave paintings in Spain were made by Neanderthals, not modern humans, archaeologists reported. The finding adds to evidence that Neanderthals were capable of symbolic thought and perhaps language.

www.nytimes.com

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aar5255

 

[my_key]

Hi The Hermit

Thanks for your positive comments around my posts on trauma. I would like to reciprocate by thanking you for the tone and content of your recent posts. I am sure that others have noticed it too and that .

Your most recent post seems well informed on the shamanic roots of the IC and in the background to the mystery behind oracular activity at different locations and the power (magic) held and recognised in sacred sites. You ask for help to understand, but I am not clear what is is you are seeking to understand. Perhaps if you could be more specific then I can advise you if I can be of help or not.

I am no academic or historian however my understanding is shamanic ritual involving cracking turtle shells over flame was involved in early IC divination practice. I have no depth of knowledge about the pictogram progressions you are pointing to or what happened at or after such rituals. Indeed you seem better informed on these topics than I am. So I think you will have to locate other sources than me to quench your thirst for verification or greater insights into these areas. I wish you well with your search.

Your words still seem to carry a flavour that the shaman, or the seers, are in some way tricksters, who put on shows and through being 'smarter' usurped the common folk. In my experience, shamanic practitioners normally look to operate in situations of 'power with' rather than 'power over', maybe though your experiences lend themselves to holding a different belief. Of course, there will always be abusers of the power they attain when abiding in positions of authority, so as with all things we can only really base our individual beliefs in our own experiences.

Take Care

 

[The Hermit]

Sorry to see you lose interest, @my_key. But that’s ok. Not everybody is into caves. Still, caves are interesting places. And caves in the Paleolithic must have been very scary places too.

First of all, if you want to live in a cave even today, you need to check if there´s no predator living there. Fire is really helpful, not only to scare away cave animals, but also to illuminate inside the cave. But then after chasing out Trogloxenes, also called cave guests like bears or other dangerous animals, there were also Troglobites. These are animals living always underground, in these special habitats with humidity, lots of minerals and 100% darkness. Some of them were (are) big worms, with four limbs and a regenerative tail like Axolotls and others amphibians, and they look(ed) very similar to dragons. They also can change colours (pigmentation). I am not kidding. Look it up for yourself.

These animals (dragons, worms) appear in Nordic mythology and in all places around the world, were people lived in caves. Check out the Feathered Serpent, a supernatural entity or deity, found in Mesoamerican religions, those people lived in big, big rain forest caves. Worms, and I will boldly say, Dragons, are animals you will encounter in a cave, crawling on the ground. Remember what kind of animals appear in Hexagram 1 and also in hexagram 18? Yes, dragons and worms. But why? I am going to venture here a controversial idea.

There are some IC text scholars I´ve read, talking about constellations appearing to explain these dragons announcing the end of winter. If you would have lived during glaciations and climate change in the Paleolithic, in a cave in Siberia, you´d probably observed worms awakening from estivation. That’s how worms survive winter. They creep deep down into the earth before the soil freezes, kind of hibernate and come back when temperature rises again. Like many insects and other land animals, they “know” when winter is coming and also when spring is coming. Translation from Wilhelm:

Hex 1 line 1
"Nine at the beginning means:
Hidden dragon. Do not act."
Stay put!!!

Hex 1 Line 5
"Nine in the fifth place means:
Flying dragon in the heavens.
It furthers one to see the great man."
Time to move!!!

Hex 1 line 6
"Nine at the top means:
Arrogant dragon will have cause to repent."
Its too late to move now, stay put or you will repent!!!

Would someone like a shaman notice these things? I think so. Would he/she pass the secret on to the next generation? If he/she had a code, a trans-generational code, maybe he/she could. And such information would mean the difference between life and death for the tribe. To move or to stay put. Well, stories told by the fire were important, that is a transgenerational code, it’s also called oral tradition. But if you wanted to protect "sacred" knowledge for real, you had to find a long-lasting trans-civilizational code. Well, petroglyphs are literally one of the cornerstones for the development of human language. Is this boring? I hope not.

Now let me ask a final rhetorical question: Would you follow a leader without this knowledge? To know when to move or to stay put, not because of war, but because of season, is not an alpha male trait, it requires connection to the spirit of nature, it requires mental flex, it needs somebody with special skills like careful observation of natural signs or a certain cognitive sensitivity towards subtle changes within the group and/or to external factors.

The shaman was a shapeshifter, a trickster. But he/she was also an educator, a guiding voice to the leaders of the hunter-gatherer, a medicine(wo)man able to heal and to give significance to life and death, and foremost he/she knew about seasons. To the common man/woman/child, it must have felt almost or maybe exactly like witnessing a wizard in action.

My guess is magical thinking is level one, for the common folk, the gullible. The shaman was on level three. He/she had probably transcended the realm of irrationality into emotional cognition and it enabled him/her to observe the natural phenomena, the patterns of creation, balance and destruction.

It was probably the first scientist at work, the first artist delighting others, the first one to lose his/her mind in a dark place and earning a superhuman soul (spirit) by coming back to tell the tale. But enough with this mental speleology. We are here to operate the IC; not to understand it, right? Or should we hold on to our (stone)axe a little bit longer? I think we need to hold on to our intellect before using something we don´t comprehend.

And then of course there is this, you wrote it at the end of your last comment: "...so as with all things we can only really base our individual beliefs in our own experiences." Sounds like Solipsism. Well, to know is to possess knowledge, to believe is to accept something to be true. The first, as shown above, is appropriate for a leader. The latter, for a follower.

Take care.

 

[my_key]

Sorry to see you lose interest, @my_key. But that’s ok. Not everybody is into caves. Still, caves are interesting places. And caves in the Paleolithic must have been very scary places too.

It's not that I'm losing interest. It's more a case of these things do not carry any real interest for me

First of all, if you want to live in a cave even today, you need to check if there´s no predator living there. Fire is really helpful, not only to scare away cave animals, but also to illuminate inside the cave. But then after chasing out Trogloxenes, also called cave guests like bears or other dangerous animals, there were also Troglobites. These are animals living always underground, in these special habitats with humidity, lots of minerals and 100% darkness. Some of them were (are) big worms, with four limbs and a regenerative tail like Axolotls and others amphibians, and they look(ed) very similar to dragons. They also can change colours (pigmentation). I am not kidding. Look it up for yourself.

You keep offering me references to look up. However as these topics do not interest me in the form you are presenting then I will not be taking up your kind offer.

These animals (dragons, worms) appear in Nordic mythology and in all places around the world, were people lived in caves. Check out the Feathered Serpent, a supernatural entity or deity, found in Mesoamerican religions, those people lived in big, big rain forest caves. Worms, and I will boldly say, Dragons, are animals you will encounter in a cave, crawling on the ground. Remember what kind of animals appear in Hexagram 1 and also in hexagram 18? Yes, dragons and worms. But why? I am going to venture here a controversial idea.

There are some IC text scholars I´ve read, talking about constellations appearing to explain these dragons announcing the end of winter. If you would have lived during glaciations and climate change in the Paleolithic, in a cave in Siberia, you´d probably observed worms awakening from estivation. That’s how worms survive winter. They creep deep down into the earth before the soil freezes, kind of hibernate and come back when temperature rises again. Like many insects and other land animals, they “know” when winter is coming and also when spring is coming. Translation from Wilhelm:

Hex 1 line 1
"Nine at the beginning means:
Hidden dragon. Do not act."
Stay put!!!

Hex 1 Line 5
"Nine in the fifth place means:
Flying dragon in the heavens.
It furthers one to see the great man."
Time to move!!!

Hex 1 line 6
"Nine at the top means:
Arrogant dragon will have cause to repent."
Its too late to move now, stay put or you will repent!!!

Would someone like a shaman notice these things? I think so. Would he/she pass the secret on to the next generation? If he/she had a code, a trans-generational code, maybe he/she could. And such information would mean the difference between life and death for the tribe. To move or to stay put. Well, stories told by the fire were important, that is a transgenerational code, it’s also called oral tradition. But if you wanted to protect "sacred" knowledge for real, you had to find a long-lasting trans-civilizational code. Well, petroglyphs are literally one of the cornerstones for the development of human language. Is this boring? I hope not.

Now let me ask a final rhetorical question: Would you follow a leader without this knowledge? To know when to move or to stay put, not because of war, but because of season, is not an alpha male trait, it requires connection to the spirit of nature, it requires mental flex, it needs somebody with special skills like careful observation of natural signs or a certain cognitive sensitivity towards subtle changes within the group and/or to external factors.

The shaman was a shapeshifter, a trickster. But he/she was also an educator, a guiding voice to the leaders of the hunter-gatherer, a medicine(wo)man able to heal and to give significance to life and death, and foremost he/she knew about seasons. To the common man/woman/child, it must have felt almost or maybe exactly like witnessing a wizard in action.

My guess is magical thinking is level one, for the common folk, the gullible. The shaman was on level three. He/she had probably transcended the realm of irrationality into emotional cognition and it enabled him/her to observe the natural phenomena, the patterns of creation, balance and destruction.

It was probably the first scientist at work, the first artist delighting others, the first one to lose his/her mind in a dark place and earning a superhuman soul (spirit) by coming back to tell the tale. But enough with this mental speleology. We are here to operate the IC; not to understand it, right? Or should we hold on to our (stone)axe a little bit longer? I think we need to hold on to our intellect before using something we don´t comprehend.

Controversial ideas have been the bedrock for the growth of humankind. Over the years some have been taken on board and become mainstream beliefs others have fallen on stony ground. Much of what you voice here could be considered as 'mainstream' already if you know which streams to wade in. Whichever outcome prevails - mainstream or controversy- matters not. It is a wonderful thing to have diversity in human beliefs. Long may controversial ideas continue to be generated.

And then of course there is this, you wrote it at the end of your last comment: "...so as with all things we can only really base our individual beliefs in our own experiences." Sounds like Solipsism. Well, to know is to possess knowledge, to believe is to accept something to be true. The first, as shown above, is appropriate for a leader. The latter, for a follower.

Take care.

Solipsism if based in the philosophical perspective extols a thinking that only mind exists. So I hope you or others do not see the words what I have written in this way. My comment does embrace though the idea that our worlds evolve in and around a core essence of Self. Self is way more powerful than mind and there is no real comparison between the two.

Whether leader or follower all anyone can base the topography of their inner landscape on is their own experience. In that respect I find it difficult to differentiate between the two as you do. Whether leader or follower both are living the best sense of self that they can based on an acceptance of what they see as their truth. You do it. I do it. Everyone that reads this thread does it.

So, in closing, I will repeat my offer from the previous post. If you can be specific about which new truths you are seeking understanding on then please voice them. The long-barrelled, scatter-gun approach you are adopting is certainly not motivating me greatly to maintain more than a passing interest in the thread. Others who could engage with you in exploration are not yet engaging with to your posts. Perhaps they carry an air of confusion in all this, as I do. I may not be able to support you on your quest but with clear, specific statements of where you want to head, what you want to understand there may well be others on the forum who can assist you.

Good Luck

 

[The Hermit]

Ok. I get it. @my_key it was a pleasure to discuss these complex ideas. Thank you. And I will try my luck in an own thread.

 

[my_key]

Hi The Hermit
So it seems we are unable to negotiate a way to a place of stable common ground for potential further discussions. I fully respect your decision to follow the choices that feel most appropriate for you.
May your magic guide you, in your new thread, towards discovering the insights and discussions you are seeking.
Good Luck