Question about crossline omens

[jesed]

"I wonder why this particular technique hasn't caught on in the West?"

Yi Jing has several levels: this technique is related only to one of them (and the "lower" one in traditonal teachings). That's why many traditional masters doesn't like it.

If you read closely Whilelm's translation, you'll find one or two words about this method. He called it "astrological speculation". Of course, Whilelm learned Yi Jing from traditional masters; so he learned not-to-like this method

 

[hilary]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I think the future is already set. Our lives are all about kismet and free will is an illusion. The question is...can we somehow tap into it and get a glimpse of what will be?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Why would you want to bother?

 

[hilary]

Sorry, just spotted your response up there.

'More than a predictive tool' does not necessarily mean 'spiritual guide' - though I imagine we might have different interpretations for 'spiritual guide'.

Let's ban the 's' word for the moment, for the sake of simplicity. I was thinking more of questions like, 'How best to approach this job interview?' or 'What do I need to say in this sales letter?' or 'Why do X and I always end up arguing?'

What's more pragmatic and useful: an oracle that can give you advice to enable to improve your life, or a predictive tool that can show you glimpses of a future you're helpless to change?

 

[hilary]

I think (not 100% sure) that the system Jesed is describing is also the subject of the books Harmen Mesker reviews here.

 

[heylise]

I did not want to clutter this thread with a lot of theory, so I started another thread about crosslines, squares and fan yao

"Crosslines squares and fanyao"

LiSe

 

[clarissa]

"Why would you want to bother?"

Curiousity. Sometimes I don't want to know...but other times I do.

From the reviews:

"now, after more than twenty years, we have three more books about the subject. Which probably shows what a delicate subject it is."

That's how I see it. Few want to delve into this because of the stigma attached to fortune telling. However, I've seen enough weird things in my life to make me think it just may be possible.

"'The most powerful language of God' is the subtitle of this big book, written by one of the weirdest guys on the internet."

This Chiu guy sounds like a real character

Was he the person coming here and calling himself "Horse"? <grin>

 

[kevin]

Hi Clarissa

That?s good as I am not a Guru!

I have to be somewhere else tonight? will post properly tomorrow.

I think what I was trying to say was how to use the crosslines? and that it was not about text analysis,

The Dachuan also says the text was written for those who could not use the Yi without it

I like both?

What I was trying to open up was the art of divination which is very different from text analysis.

Try the technique I suggested? You might find it opens up a new approach for you.

Sorry if I sounded guru like or patronizing ? it was no meant.

But

Did I really sound Guru like? Perhaps my response was because you did not seem to do any work around what I had already said and then you asked another question on another subject?

Back tomorrow

--Kevin

 

[hilary]

If I couldn't do anything about it, I definitely wouldn't want to know. Anyway - another reason why it likely hasn't caught on over here is that it's monstrously complicated. We don't tend to be fond of weighty, complicated systems that take years to learn. How many Westerners have learned traditional Chinese feng shui? The lack of translations from the Chinese may be a factor, or it may just be a side-effect of lack of demand.

Alex Chiu is indeed a character. I don't think he's ever visited us here, though a fan of his once dropped by. Joseph Yu, who sells a correspondence course on the same subject that Alex expounds for free on his site, says that Alex's work has mistakes. I don't know anything about any of it.

BTW and OT, you should read Steve Marshall's links page, too. It's hysterical.

 

[bruce]

Ah, the Chiu guy who promises immortality? I read in News Week that he?s merging with Rev. Sun Myung Moon for sanctified wedding franchises, and fortune cookie distribution through Girl Scouts of America.

 

[jesed]

Hi

Just in case the commentary can be usefull

Experiment whith reality (and not preconcibed concepts) is the best teacher... I had asked several "predictive" questions; and interpreted acoording both with Chiu's web and Lo's book. Every time, Lo's book give better interpretations.

Studying why, you can find some errors in Chiu's web (like convert your local time to Beijin time, this is an error (altough some western's studies insist that is correct; not always impact on your readings, but som times it does)

About Herman's review of Raymond Lo: mmm, he did some injust critics.

Just one example: he said about the Benett's case "Excuse me? It was reported in the media that the girl was found beaten, strangled to death, with duct tape on her mouth. 'Is this resistance successful?'"

But Raymond Lo NEVER said kid's resistance was successful; even more, Lo textually said it was UNSUCCESSFUL (because the month supported the killer and not the child)

Raymond Lo's book is not the deeper book in this method; but a good first step to experiment with reality.

Best wishes

 

[hilary]

Thanks, Jesed - good to hear what has and hasn't worked.

About Harmen's review - I think his point was not that Lo got it wrong, but that it's absurd to ask whether a tiny child can offer successful resistance to a murderer - and that getting the answer right isn't very convincing evidence for the efficacy of the method.

 

[jesed]

Maybe,... but Lo didn't ask that.

I'll try to explain better in this specific issue:

FBI presupossed that Bennet didn't resist the attack. In basis on this, they think the killer should be someone closer to her (farther, brother..); and didn't try-so-hard to find evidences related to this unthinkable resistence.

So, if the interpretation of Raymond Lo was correct, shows not only that father and brother wasn't involved (like Harmen said, NOW the press think they wasn't but not at that time), but FBI was totally wrong in it's investigation.

Of course, if the same answer would be obtein for propper persons in propper time (and of course, if they trust in that answer), it would be provide an important hint to the investigation: search better for struggle evidence??

Any way. better that each one experiment this by itself

Best wishes

 

[clarissa]

"I think what I was trying to say was how to use the crosslines? and that it was not about text analysis"

See, that confuses me. I thought crosslines WERE about the text...that they determine which texts you read.

"What I was trying to open up was the art of divination which is very different from text analysis."

Maybe we should clarify something. What do you mean by "text analysis"?

"Try the technique I suggested? You might find it opens up a new approach for you."

Well, I thought I did. I mean..I did what I thought I was supposed to do...find the crosslines and then read the text. Am I way off here?

"Did I really sound Guru like? Perhaps my response was because you did not seem to do any work around what I had already said and then you asked another question on another subject?"

Yeah, you did come across as a little guru-ish. However, it may have just been a case of misunderstanding. I actually did read the text of those lines. Wasn't that what I was supposed to do? You suggested taking an old reading where I knew the outcome...and then trying the crossline thing on it. I screwed up because I was tired and you helped me. I then read the text of the lines. Right? Isn't that how you do it? Isn't it like watching the whole thing unfold?

 

[clarissa]

"What's more pragmatic and useful: an oracle that can give you advice to enable to improve your life, or a predictive tool that can show you glimpses of a future you're helpless to change?"

Hi Hilary,

I'm finding that the Yi does indeed give me, as someone here said, the "contours" of a situation. I was really taken aback how that
41->6 reading regarding that old friend of mine I recently got in touch with turned out....when he got back to me a few days later worried that he had cut me off during our phone conversation. So, there really WAS some sort of conflict-type situation going on after all.

I've also asked the Yi about another issue and the answers do seem spot on. Even if I sometimes don't understand the moving lines...the hexagrams themselves seem to accurately depict the situation.

 

[hilary]

Well, yes, they do tend to.

And I can see the appeal of satisfying curiosity (or avoiding suspense!) by predicting the future. But it still sort of begs the question: what's all this for?

 

[heylise]

I guess there are two Yi's. One is a tool to improve your life, and the other is a coffee-table version. A tool to improve the conversation.

Both have their value, in their own place and right.

LiSe

 

[hilary]

I'm thinking that the main thing is to get a conversation going with one Yi or another. Who knows where that might lead?

 

[heylise]

Yes, guess you are right.. Who knows where spirits fly - or where they choose to land.

LiSe

 

[clarissa]

"Well, yes, they do tend to."

<grin>

"And I can see the appeal of satisfying curiosity (or avoiding suspense!) by predicting the future. But it still sort of begs the question: what's all this for?"

Well, I don't know really

Seriously, I do see the value in using the Yi to help one navigate a difficult situation.