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"South-West" or "South and West"?

IrfanK

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Wilhelm goes with South-West in 38, and it's the right direction to go in. He explains that with reference to the trigram K'un, in the South-West. But don't go in the direction of the North-East, in the direction of Gen, the mountain. A time for accepting and submitting, not standing resolute.

But some translations, I think @hilary's and a few others, go with "South and West," which is completely different. Is it ambiguous in the original?
 

surnevs

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Wilhelm goes with South-West in 38, and it's the right direction to go in. He explains that with reference to the trigram K'un, in the South-West. But don't go in the direction of the North-East, in the direction of Gen, the mountain. A time for accepting and submitting, not standing resolute.

But some translations, I think @hilary's and a few others, go with "South and West," which is completely different. Is it ambiguous in the original?

I Guess You mean Hex. 39 the Judgement.
Gregory C. Richter got, for H.39 Judgement:


h39.jpg
From the Birocco homepage the Judgement reads:

biroc.jpg

I think it's obvious, from The received Text, that the words West - South and East - North are separated.
In my edition of Hilary's book, they are not separated but: Southwest and Northeast.
(I got Hilary's first edition where the AuthorHouse has made misprints. Therefore I ordered her new edition from the Amazon UK department on the 1 of April. Each month since Amazon. uk has mailed me that they will inform me when it can be dispatched. Maybe I should have ordered it directly from onlineclarity....)
 
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hilary

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As far as I know, it can be read either way. Rutt, Field, Schilling and Minford separate them into cardinal directions - south and west, east and north. That gives you kan in the north, and IMO also points forward and back to 38 and 49. With no place to go, no home to go to, go back towards 38 (which is not 37); with somewhere to go, head out early for the longer trek towards 49.
 

surnevs

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As far as I know, it can be read either way. Rutt, Field, Schilling and Minford separate them into cardinal directions - south and west, east and north. That gives you kan in the north, and IMO also points forward and back to 38 and 49. With no place to go, no home to go to, go back towards 38 (which is not 37); with somewhere to go, head out early for the longer trek towards 49.
I was just going to add that John Blofeld also got an and between. But as seen in the received version there is no and
pinyin Hé (
Link)
 
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hilary

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'And' is just something you have to add in translations to make English sometimes, like 'a' and 'the'. Unfortunately for us, Chinese compound words, like 'southwest', aren't written with the characters closer together or hyphenated or anything helpful like that. You're just expected to know that these two characters are one word. Or aren't, as the case may be.
 

dfreed

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He (Wilhelm) explains that with reference to the trigram K'un (Earth), in the South-West. But don't go in the direction of the North-East, in the direction of Gen, (Mountain).

But some translations, ... go with "South and West," which is completely different. Is it ambiguous in the original?

I can imagine that these may have originally indicated actual directions to go in or not go in.

I tend to go with 'South and West', etc ... but I do like how these two direction - SW and NE - correspond to the Houtian Bagua (later heaven trigram) Circle:

* Kun, Earth in the southwest is a directon of support and acceptance.

* Gen, Mountain in the northest is a direction of being/standing alone ('losing friends') and is also looking towards the past (from the northeast back towards winter in the north).​

As I said, I usually associate these with four directions, not two, and I have created my own way of understading of these:

* West: the direction of the Zhou homeland, where one can always find friends.

* South: the sunny side of the mountain; associated with Li, flame, clarity, seeing things clearly.

* East: the directon of the Shang homeland, where you are looking towards a past kingdom and an old way of seeing / being.

* North: the direction of shade, dark, a cold winter; and the land of barbarians (e.g. the walls built on the northern borders that were mean to keep out barbarians; which the Qin connected into a 'great wall').​

Of course my explainations have some conflicts:

... referring to the Houtian Bagua Circle, East is good & positive: the direction of Spring, what is new, and welcomeing the new; and West is also good & positive: Dui/Lake, the joyful fall harvest.

But then again ... not seeing these as necessarily good or bad: East is about new beginnings; West is about bringing things to a close, endings.

More broadly speaking, South and West; Southwest; North and East; and Northeast - are about picking a direction to go in, setting a goal to go towards.

So, do we decide to go north and then east, or do we go northeast? Or, do we decide - regardless of what I queried the Yi about - to go in a 'direction' (by way of our thoughts, attitudes, actions ...) that is a more friendly, warm, welcoming, provides more clarity, and feels like we're 'returning home'?

.... I recent queried the Yi, 'about today' and got the line about 'west and south' being favorable. I was planning to go for a beach walk and I opted for the one (of the two beaches I usually go to) which is South of me. I did not go to Langley beach, which is North (and West) of me.

Neither of these is, strictly speaking, East & South nor East & North of my home, but I still felt the Yi was giving me a sense of a direction to go in - and in this instance did I really need to be too picky about this? I didn't think so.

Best, D
 
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hilary

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I can imagine that these may have originally indicated actual directions to go in or not go in.
Yes - presumably in the same circumstances that they still sometimes do nowadays: when it makes sense in context of the question. 'What about moving to X?' and so on.
* East: the directon of the Shang homeland, where you are looking towards a past kingdom and an old way of seeing / being.

Of course my explainations have some conflicts:

... referring to the Houtian Bagua Circle, East is good & positive: the direction of Spring, what is new, and welcomeing the new;

I don't think this is a conflict. If you head off into the Shang homeland, you may well be following your Mandate, going with the army that will overthrow the Shang and usher in the new dynasty. All a thoroughly Thunder-ish thing to do.
 

dfreed

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I don't think this is a conflict. If you head off (East) into the Shang homeland, you may well be following your Mandate ....
Yes, I agree, and I think this corresponds with my sense of Thunder, Spring being a good thing, about new beginnings ....

The 'conflict' I'm seeing is betwen this 'positive' view of going East and Hex. 39''s "unfavorable East (and North)".

But I have no conflict with what you are saying.
 

IrfanK

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I don't think this is a conflict. If you head off into the Shang homeland, you may well be following your Mandate, going with the army that will overthrow the Shang and usher in the new dynasty. All a thoroughly Thunder-ish thing to do.
Ya, no conflict between the "actual directions to go" and the latter heaven arrangement. I can imagine the bagua associations with the directions were based on perceptions of what lay in the different directions on the ground, nothing too ethereal.

Come to think of it, even in English, the compass points are not entirely neutral, they have quite strong associations. In general discourse, "the West" means all sorts of things that don't have anything to do with real, geographical directions. I think Sir Richard Burton made a few sarcastic comments about people asking about his trip to "the East," when actually he was going to Morocco, which was nothing like East from where the discussion was taking place.
 

hilary

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The 'conflict' I'm seeing is betwen this 'positive' view of going East and Hex. 39''s "unfavorable East (and North)".
Indeed. For whatever reason, the Yi actually never says that going east and north is a good idea.
 

surnevs

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Just saw that Bradford Hatcher got yet another point of view:

bh.jpg
- and also that he got nan2 (and, to) + bei3 (and, to) included in the text. Whether this is from another text than that from the Birocco site [#2] or?
Well, my intention with adding this were not to make up a mess - rather broaden the possibilities.


 

dfreed

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- and also that he got nan2 (and, to) + bei3 (and, to) included in the text. Whether this is from another text

My sense is the translation is (or is close to):
worthwhile / west / south
not / worthwhile / east / north


The 'connecting' words - and, or - are added to make the translation 'more readable' (or understandable?) in English. The decision by different translators to use 'and' or 'or' (or perhaps neither) is at the heart of this thread; Hatcher's translation is one possibility, but not necessarily the correct one.

Hatcher's notes about these directions:
" ... Northeast and Southwest were the relative centers or capitals of the Shang and Zhou dynasties respectively, at the time the mandate changed hands. Southwest was friendlier ground, a more 'secure and certain good fortune,' or a path of least resistance. The northeast was within the new domain and was therefore a permissible direction, but here it is seen as more challenging than is currently necessary."

I appreciate his explanation here, however it still doesn't mean that this is what was intended by the Yi's authors.

I don't think he got this from Biroco's (Steve Marshall's?) site, but I don't really know? Is there something on that website that made you think this? And if so, can you point us to it?

Bradford Hatcher calls 39 'Impasse' - my take: here the mountain passes are flooded (trigrams water above mountain) and so even if our ultimate destination is to the north / east, the best way forward is to first travel south / west. For me it can be about which positive (or necessary) detours (choices) we take - even if at times these are not the most direct route.

This also reminds me, in the Carlos Castinada books, Don Juan suggests that if we're undecided about what direction to take, or decision to make that we ask ourselves, 'is this a path with heart?' I wonder, could this also be what these 'directions' are about?
 

surnevs

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My sense is the translation is (or is close to):
worthwhile / west / south
not / worthwhile / east / north


The 'connecting' words - and, or - are added to make the translation 'more readable' (or understandable?) in English. The decision by different translators to use 'and' or 'or' (or perhaps neither) is at the heart of this thread; Hatcher's translation is one possibility, but not necessarily the correct one.

Hatcher's notes about these directions:
" ... Northeast and Southwest were the relative centers or capitals of the Shang and Zhou dynasties respectively, at the time the mandate changed hands. Southwest was friendlier ground, a more 'secure and certain good fortune,' or a path of least resistance. The northeast was within the new domain and was therefore a permissible direction, but here it is seen as more challenging than is currently necessary."

I appreciate his explanation here, however it still doesn't mean that this is what was intended by the Yi's authors.

I don't think he got this from Biroco's (Steve Marshall's?) site, but I don't really know? Is there something on that website that made you think this? And if so, can you point us to it?

Bradford Hatcher calls 39 'Impasse' - my take: here the mountain passes are flooded (trigrams water above mountain) and so even if our ultimate destination is to the north / east, the best way forward is to first travel south / west. For me it can be about which positive (or necessary) detours (choices) we take - even if at times these are not the most direct route.

This also reminds me, in the Carlos Castinada books, Don Juan suggests that if we're undecided about what direction to take, or decision to make that we ask ourselves, 'is this a path with heart?' I wonder, could this also be what these 'directions' are about?
No, I've counted: 13 signs on the Biroccosite and 13 signs used by B.H. (Chinese signs) and I see that B.H. got the and, to in parenthesis. So it's clear now that B.H. worked with the same text as is to be found on Birocco's homepage. Thanks for leading my attention toward this.
 

dfreed

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I've counted: 13 signs on the Biroccosite and 13 signs used by B.H. (Chinese signs)
Sorry, but can you clarify, by ‘signs’ do you mean Chinese characters/words? And does the ‘13’ refer to the number of times you’re seeing specific characters - ex. a count of the number of times you’ve found ‘east’ or ‘south’ ...?
Best, D.
 

surnevs

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Sorry, but can you clarify, by ‘signs’ do you mean Chinese characters/words? And does the ‘13’ refer to the number of times you’re seeing specific characters - ex. a count of the number of times you’ve found ‘east’ or ‘south’ ...?
Best, D.
The number of Chinese signs in both Birocco, Bradford Hatcher and Gregory C. Richter (GCR being pinyin characters) is a total of 14, but as the first character in the Judgement is the Tag, there are 13 characters.
(GCR & Birocco #2, BH #11)
 

dfreed

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The number of Chinese signs in both Birocco, Bradford Hatcher and ...

Joel Biroco notes: This is a ... transcription of the 1935 Harvard-Yenching Zhouyi ... (in Chinese)

Bradford Hatcher says he: ... attempts a translation of the “received text” of the Yijing, from the Chinese Imperial Edition of 1715, substantially as found in the Harvard-Yenching Institute's Zhouyi Yinde (1935) and in Z.D. Sung’s The Text of theYi King (1935).

So, it seems they are working from the same text, though Hatcher used other sources. It's not of consequence, but I don't know if one of them got it from the other, or they both got it from another source.

A Bing (internet) translation of Biroco's Hex. 39, reads:

Southwest of Yuli. disadvantageous to the Northeast.

This points to the 'and' / 'or' words being added to English (and other language) translations to make it more readable or understandable (to us.)

Rutt also writes about using this same version: a concordance of Zhouyi ... published by the Harvard-Yenching Institute ... in 1935. This is now the preferred text of Western scholars, and has been used for this translation.

Wilhelm says: A very good edition was arranged in the K’ang Hsi period (1654-1722?) .... it presents the text and the wings separately and includes the best commentaries of all periods. This is the edition on which the present (his) translation is based.

Perhaps this is a different version of the 'received text' but since the Harvard-Yenching Yi is based on a 1715 edition, maybe they are the same, or at least similar.

Best, D
 
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