THE SEVEN LAWS

[chrislofting]

Hi Davidl,


> Chris,
> I will ask the question again, does your 'neuronal' theory
> have an answer for the ability to view future events. If not
> then maybe you should open your mind to the possibility that
> this theory is faulty and at best limited. If so , please
> explain. By the way a simple reply such as "no, my current
> theory does not allow for the mind to view future events"
> will suffice, then we may be on track to discuss this in
> more depth.
>

but im not interested. My focus is IDM/I Ching Plus in the context of how we derive meaning, how we impose meaning, and the properties of the methodology used in a context of (a) understanding our species-nature more and (b) a meaning system for AI systems. Applied to remote viewing I would be more interested in the patterns of meaning generated by such images - e.g. Jung noted in the dreams of his patients a 'vibe' pre WW1 that showed an unconscious awareness of the war to come - strongly symbolic in form (and so reflecting struggles with something unknown to consciousness)

your perspective is obviously one of personal development of consciousness etc and thats fine but my perspective is on a 'ground' that is common to all but 'under-appreciated' by many to the detriment of the collective.

As to any 'facts' of such concepts as remote viewing etc I have not seen any repeatable experiments that give the same results and as such the data is unreliable, too dependent on personal perspectives etc to be of any use outside of 'Oh -- I foresaw that!' all after the event.

The perspective you offer is one of SuperDeterminism where every act is pre-determined, there is no 'flexibility' in development and that goes against all that we see in life. The Determinism is GENERAL, as in genetics, rules, laws etc (even the I Ching) but WITHIN that general is an ability to adjust, to ESCAPE, free-will, chance occurences, and that is at the level of the PARTICULAR.

The IDM transcendence function shows the properties and methods of this escape process, as well as the consequences in social development where the 'new' becomes the 'norm' that becomes too 'integrating' and so a need by some to escape and so a new cycle develops, a new differentition is made.

The realm of transcendence reflects the realm of consciousness-nature more than species-nature and that realm is also one where electrical thunderstorms in the brain can elicit VIVID images and voices that do not exist 'out here'. BUT not being aware of the interactions of species-nature (brain functions) and consciousness-nature (mind functions) there will be LOTS of 'issues' re interpretations of 'seeing' things.

Whenever we toss coins, use yarrow sticks, etc we are focusing attention on prediction, but then we are also doing that when we give psyche tests (the MBTI to determine persona and so GENERAL expression) or Mathematics (where we derive an alogorithm/formula and so another GENERAL).

Since my IDM model covers the I Ching, the MBTI, and Mathematics so my theory DOES " allow for the mind to view future events" but not as literally as you prefer (as in literally *seeing* the event) - what can be done is the products of I Ching, MBTI, Mathematics can give you something with which to CREATE an image, a SIMULATION, of the future event but not an image of the event itself (which would be a super-determinism function and I dont see any need for such a concept for if there was then our current species would not be where it is!)

Our consciousness-nature DOES allow us to use imagination, and so simulation, of an event to educate our senses to deal with that event, if we are never exposed to it. All of the movies, books, videos, music CD etc etc go towards educating our sensory systems, to a degree of causing habituation and so a lack of 'empathy' when it is required as in 'no big deal, been there (in simulation), done that (in simulation)'! (and it can also allow us to imagine something happened in reality that we saw in some long forgotten movie - lets see, planes into buildings - Richard Burton in something about seeing things, premonitions? - late 60s/early 70s?...)

Given all of this data we CAN 'confuse' internal reality with external reality so 'Remote Viewing' etc requires some work before it attracts my attention away from my current focus ;-)

That said, perhaps there are those on this list who may be interested, so perhaps you should put a post together giving fine details of the technique etc and they can try it out -- or are you going to say that is not possible as it requires 'specialist' mental training? ....

Chris.

 

[frandoch]

Hi Chris,

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Given all of this data we CAN 'confuse' internal reality
with external reality so 'Remote Viewing' etc requires some
work before it attracts my attention away from my current
focus ;-)<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there such a thing as external reality ?? Our only perception of it is based on an internal processing of stimuli received from our sense organs, and those stimuli could be administered artificially, and we would have no way of telling the difference.

Michael F.

I await a few more miles

 

[chrislofting]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: I Ching Community Discussion Forum
> [mailto:support@onlineClarity.co.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, 17 September 2003 8:45 AM
> To: ddiamond@ozemail.com.au
> Subject: THE SEVEN LAWS
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> I Ching Community Discussion Forum: Open Space: THE SEVEN
> LAWS
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> By Val (Val) on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 11:45 pm:
>
> Chris...
>
> How fast do you type?
>

no idea. two fingers, fastish. but I do have a lot of time on my hands at the moment....

Chris.

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Michael,

You wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> Quote:
> Given all of this data we CAN 'confuse' internal
> reality
> with external reality so 'Remote Viewing' etc
> requires some
> work before it attracts my attention away from my
> current
> focus ;-)
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Is there such a thing as external reality ?? Our only
> perception of it is based on an internal processing of
> stimuli received from our sense organs, and those stimuli
> could be administered artificially, and we would have no way
> of telling the difference.
>

...hmm... and where is this source of 'administration'. Does not your prose contain within it at least an implicit sense of differentation of realities? To communicate has shifted you from one mindset (the experience) to another (the communication of that experience). Note an interesting problem in communications is that the side controlling the spoken word is the left hemisphere and it is inherently 'neutral-to-positive' in expression, to the degree where negation is expressed positively, assetively! ;-)

IOW to communicate the realm of the negative, the dark, (and even the integrating) is not truely possible using the spoken word other than through the use of expletives that are expressed in a definite (and so positive) manner - we need empathy to experience the full expression of the negative! ;-) (and so, in a context of integrating, the sense of belonging, to be understood, requires empathy to appreciate the need fully - saying it LOUDLY makes no difference ;-))

To use the term 'artificial' means recognising the differences of artificial vs real and so of two different realities, one real, one artificial. Now these can share the same space, as shown in focusing on the consciousness-nature (derived, ideal, 'artificial') vs the species-nature (real, 'as is') but zoom-in to the artifical and from inside it DOES appear as if 'real'. The pointer to an 'issue' is the presence of any paradox where the paradox stems from crossing over of interpretations what is happening, as we see in the examples I gave of sensory 'paradox'.

The species-nature does not appear to experience paradox in dealing with the Universe. What you can see is under 'novel' and stressful situations attempts to use the full set of instincts to get out of the situation - you see 'out of context' behaviour (aka compensatory behaviour for an anxiety).

The consciousness-nature DOES experience paradox and so a boundary is formed, a differention of some sort, a DIFFERENCE is detected and shown to be a 'problem' with the intepretation - stay in the box and you have paradox, step out of the box and it is gone and with that comes a better understanding of the box!

This reflects the 'need' to step out of the individualist box, the consciousness-nature box, and in doing so step into the 'bigger', but more generic, box of the species-nature, and so of sense organs and qualities of meaning, archetypes, IN GENERAL. This crossing of boundaries reflects the focus on difference, on different 'realities' in that I can experience a personal reality or a species-member reality and not recognise the differences other than a presence of paradox when I focus attention in a context later identifiable as the personal reality.

(did you see "The Matrix"? if so recall the episode of 'de ja vu' - the black cat that 'repeated' itself and so reflected paradox - That point reflected a 'difference that made a difference' to paraphrase Gregory Batson ;-))

In computers, Virtual Reality (VR) is working on this inability to identify the 'real' world from the 'artificial' but hasnt come up with anything useful at the moment (other than a 'get out of jail' card used to resolve a plot problem (where they all appeared to die) in an episode of Red Dwarf!)

The main determinator is on objective occurences or more so the recognition of, something that does not 'fit' into one's sense of integration, sense of 'self' (and so this can get into issues of schizophrenia as well). The IDM perspective is that all we can know are in the form of patterns of differentiations and integrations and as such we already know what we will know, in principle, in that the possible patterns already exist in us. It is these patterns that allow for us to empathise with another, we resonate since we share the set of generic qualities sourced at the species-level.

Chris.

 

[davidl]

Chris
No special training, no websites or copyrights, its free. The method I have been working with over the years is basically a process of toning a number of the names of G-d. (lost you there, right) these hebrew names relate to our chakra points, or sephirot. By intoning the names correctly these sounds open a number of these points, I personally have been focusing on what is called the middle pillar, which if you draw a line vertically through the body has approx 5 or 6 main points to open. This toning is combined with eye muscle exercises, the idea being that a greater arc of the light spectrum can be viewed by the eye, for example the ability to obtain some vision in the ultra violet range. In the early stages of practice, these points spin slowly, with the help of your imagination of course. After some time of consistent practice, in my case approx 2 years , one can see the vibration of each point. This vision is with the eyes open and a dim light in the room. After some further months, with continued practice of the eye exercises, and toning, one starts to see that outside what is considered the normal visual spectrum there is what I would call a universal access screen. This screen, not unlike a projected image allows 3 distinct activities. 1) sit and watch 2) Attempt communication via your own projected images. 3) portal mode, where ones mind enters the screen and passes through it to what is sometimes another place.
I have experienced each mode probably over 100 times, with varying degrees of success.
As the Yi states, one should not go into the forest without a forester. When entering the portal, the first level of access is , lets call it the astral level. This level is not for the faint hearted, and being so, a novice needs assistance in this realm. This assistance is available from day one of commencing excercises but you may not be aware of it until your vision has improved.
The method was given to me some time ago, and of course this is a very condensed version of the practice.
Hebrew is a very interesting language, and was taught to me not like a language but a code. The key I feel is the intoning of the vowels, thats where G-d is.
The exercises that I talk about can be read in any good, book, discussing kabbalistic practice. Try for example books written on the subject like'Meditation and Kabbalah'. Author: Aryeh Kaplan. Some methods are not considered safe, I think these are the best ones for results, but should not be taken lightly. In the end they are about getting closer to the creator, and in essence falling in love with the creator . (now Ive definitely lost you). Bye for now.

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Davidl

> Chris
> No special training, no websites or copyrights, its free.
> The method I have been working with over the years is
> basically a process of toning a number of the names of G-d.
> (lost you there, right)

.. no, I am well aware of qabalah techniques, as well as eliciting trance states (NLP is 'easier' to work with in this area, no long names to remember ;-))

> these hebrew names relate to our
> chakra points, or sephirot. By intoning the names correctly
> these sounds open a number of these points, I personally
> have been focusing on what is called the middle pillar,
> which if you draw a line vertically through the body has
> approx 5 or 6 main points to open.

I know, see my diagram that maps the IC to the pillars - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/qbl.gif

I have not updated it for some time (I worked my way through all of this in my analysis of the source of meaning. you may also be interested in the qbl-tarot pages of mine in their relation to the IC:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/taro.html - QBL comes up in page 2 I think)

> This toning is combined
> with eye muscle exercises, the idea being that a greater
> arc of the light spectrum can be viewed by the eye, for
> example the ability to obtain some vision in the ultra
> violet range.

the use of recursion of ANY experiences will sort it into a spectrum mapping from infrared (earth) to ultraviolet (blue) (see my post on this thread to Luis on colours). Note that for 'transcendence' you need to focus on the blue end in that that is the area where we put into something more energy than is there and so get 'emergences' - it is the realm of complexity/chaos where we 'transcend' the binary.

What you are playing with here, from a sensory perspective, is the fovea/parafovea precision of the eye (and so the subtle control of eye muscles.) Note that the parafovea has a closer relationship to the archetypes of the unconscious, FORM detection, boundaries, patterns, and as such recall of these can elicit some 'novel' interpretations by consciousness.

> In the early stages of practice, these
> points spin slowly, with the help of your imagination of
> course.

damn right.

> After some time of consistent practice, in my case
> approx 2 years , one can see the vibration of each point.
> This vision is with the eyes open and a dim light in the
> room. After some further months, with continued practice of
> the eye exercises, and toning, one starts to see that
> outside what is considered the normal visual spectrum there
> is what I would call a universal access screen. This screen,
> not unlike a projected image allows 3 distinct activities.
> 1) sit and watch 2) Attempt communication via your own
> projected images. 3) portal mode, where ones mind enters the
> screen and passes through it to what is sometimes another
> place.

I see (!) Nostrodarmus et all used to use a reflecting dish, a container of water. the point (!) with the use of still objects is that they force the brain to habituate such that stimulation comes from the imagination, not the water which we no longer 'see' since it has become 'boring'. Artists will look at a blank canvas, or lump of rock for hours on end projecting into those surfaces, using them to reflect, what they will finally produce as a painting or sculpture. This projection technique is useful in PREDICTION processes but one must be wary about a possible confusion of 'ideal' with 'real' ;-)

> I have experienced each mode probably over 100 times, with
> varying degrees of success.

Sure. depends on you metabolic rates at the time, how tired you are, current home life etc etc Thats what ritual is about, the recognition of the need for a PARTICULAR brain state for things to work 'well', to focus, not be distracted etc etc

> As the Yi states, one should not go into the forest without
> a forester. When entering the portal, the first level of
> access is , lets call it the astral level. This level is not
> for the faint hearted, and being so, a novice needs
> assistance in this realm.

thats what IDM does at the general level, it is the general guide in that it can be used in ALL specialisations and so speed up comprehension of the specialisation as one learns the local lingo.

> This assistance is available from
> day one of commencing excercises but you may not be aware of
> it until your vision has improved.
> The method was given to me some time ago, and of course this
> is a very condensed version of the practice.
> Hebrew is a very interesting language, and was taught to me
> not like a language but a code. The key I feel is the
> intoning of the vowels, thats where G-d is.

Have you visited Stan Tenen's Meru foundation? He and I have been communicating on and off re brain structure and language for a number of years - see http://www.meru.org

One of the interesting properties of vowels is that they elicit different brain states due to the language. In English they 'add' something but are not needed to decode a sentence - we can figure it out. In such languages as Japanese and Polynesian languages whole sentences can be made of vowels! As such the brain dynamics appear to differ - right brain processing of stand-alone vowels in English etc, LEFT brain processing in those languages where a whole sentence is of vowels - the stringing together of parts for a whole is a left brain 'activity' - consciousness-nature ;-)

Thus, in English vowels reflect a superposition nature where CONTEXT determines which vowel to use (as in ht = hut, hit, hat, hot). Local context analysis is a RIGHT hemisphere task. The left favours a UNIVERSAL context that allows for 'context-free' expression, as in no dependency (and so a LEFT bias in processing vowels where context is universal (as in whole sentence expression) - one meaning - a universal.

Interestingly, 'eastern' brains show a lack in precision in the form of differentations, there is an underlying integration at work more so than in 'western' brains. BUT easterners raised in western countries from a very young age reflect 'western thinking' as do westerners raised in eastern countries. This reflects the generic influence of context upon thinking styles and the development of habits.

> The exercises that I talk about can be read in any good,
> book, discussing kabbalistic practice. Try for example books
> written on the subject like'Meditation and Kabbalah'.
> Author: Aryeh Kaplan.

I know. ;-)

> Some methods are not considered safe,

like NLP, one must be wary of eliciting trance states etc - and even be restrictive of teaching to the 'too young' in that they can take their new skills home not realising that they can be used as a weapon and in the process of 'having some fun' do some longterm psychic damage to others. Just as you dont give a 6-year-old a handgun so you dont give a 'young mind' a psychic tool that can be misused - these perspectives are not elitist in that the focus is on protection. BUT these perspectives can become elitist where the shift changes to exploitation, to offer membership in, and asking for 'donations to', some 'secret' society etc.

> I think these are the best ones for results, but should not
> be taken lightly. In the end they are about getting closer
> to the creator, and in essence falling in love with the
> creator . (now Ive definitely lost you).

not at all. To me these are all metaphors for what the brain deals with - patterns of differentiations and integrations. get into IDM and the I Ching and 'feel' your species ;-)

Chris.

 

[martin]

Well Chris, it seems that David has indeed definitely lost you.
I think it would help if you could forget your neuroscience map for a moment (or two) and try to meet him in open territory.
You are not afraid of any as yet unknown storms such a meeting might cause in your mind, aren't you?

 

[dharma]

Davidl,

>If I understand correctly your saying, someone can
>distinguish the illusion from reality, sorry thats an
>illusion."

(In the grander scheme of things) I said that believing in the power of illusion and knowing reality from illusion are two DIFFERENT things... you know, one from the other. If you read carefully through my post you will see that you misunderstood my intention completely.

(At the more personal level) I refer to one's personal take on reality, based on past conditioning for instance, as being the illusion especially as it contradicts outer conditions that actually exist (ie. the reality we should be focusing on and doing something about.)

[Thanks, I will rework my essay to avoid this kind of misunderstanding in the future with others.]


>You also describe those that believe in a creator
>as feeling superior or holier than those who dont, sorry
>thats crap, in fact it is possibly a reflection of your own
>feelings of superiority towards 'believers' thats coming
>right back at you."

Perhaps... but whether or not I am a good candidate for ferreting out certain psychological patterns in others, due to my own proclivity for it, doesn't cancel out the inherent reality of the OTHER person's superiority complexes that I've keenly identified. In any case, I merely noticed the tendency for this intolerance seeping through some of the posts and I pointed it out. BUT... unlike yourself, I did not feel compelled to point fingers at anyone in particular.

>What you and Chris are failing to see is
>that the 'scientific method' has been perfected by various
>spiritual systems and has developed past the stage that the
>current European modern scientific method finds itself.

Nothing I've said validates this assertion. Why do you make assumptions about what I know or do not know? Curious as to why you drag the 'scientific developments' issue into the debate with me- that's Chris' department, not mine.


>The methods I am more familiar with to further my
>development have also been tried, tested, recorded , debated
>for thousands of years, they need no special holiness to
>learn and are available to all who care to move out of the
>'mundane' sciences into the 'spiritual' sciences.

Again, you are making assumptions here about what, where and with whom I've studied and therefore what I may lack. In that sense you are judging the value and merit of what I previously shared with the board (which BTW was not directed at anyone in particular) all based on your own personal biases of what my understandings are and where my background lies.


David, you have, no doubt, much to share with us here (as do all of us) but it might help to read the posts that others share with a little more love and attention on your part and you might come to understand where exactly they're coming from. In so doing, you might recognize the valued time taken to write them, the care and substance they contain, and as a result you might not so easily find yourself adopting a competitive stance that misses the forest for the trees.

With no need to pick other people's points-of-view apart, so as to spotlight on what you deem "crap", you might actually find that the areas of commonality, that are conducive to relating in a supportive way, are actually present. And... when you invite others to share from their hearts, it would be nice if you did the same in return.

Dharma

 

[Sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

This is what is in my heart. My perspective is in many ways similar to Chris' and while he uses scientific terms I don't but the gist is still the same. I hope I don't step on anyone's toes. (Why does the mixing of science and spiritual stuff always cause such a ruckus?)<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch!!

Luis

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Martin,

you wrote:
>
> Well Chris, it seems that David has indeed definitely lost
> you.

not that I can see. some people seem to think that I have come to the IDM material with no consideration of esoteric disciplines - rubbish. I have been deeply involved in such disciplines as part of my analysis of meaning. Davidl's qabalistic perspective is not new to me nor is it of real interest to me since I was 'working on the pillars' decades ago, been there, done that. If I was interested in the speciality then I would still be doing it. I am not.

Most people have no idea of the depth we are dealing with re neurology, cognitive sciences etc where the qabalah etc are reflections of that depth, but then why talk to the jockey when you can talk to the horse? (and talking to the horse gives us IDM patterns that aids in extending the operational scope of both jockey and horse - and so the ICPlus material, MBTIPlus material, MathematicsPlus material, could even do a QBLPlus material but no need, the ones I have are enough ;-))

> I think it would help if you could forget your neuroscience
> map for a moment (or two) and try to meet him in open
> territory.

Why? I am not interested in covering, from my perspective, 'old ground' - it might be new for him but that is his choice, his 'trip', his personal focus on developing his consciousness etc etc - good for him. good luck to him. I am sure he has some very interesting insights from his experiences. However, for me, I have other interests than that particular material, and mostly focused on this list on IDM and the I Ching. If he seriously wants to talk qabalah then besides being here he can join the many "Golden Dawn" lists and/or their offshoots where they 'speak the language' and practice the attitude ;-)

There is a lot in the qabalah and in the use of Hebrew etc etc that is reflected in the I Ching simply because of the common ground beneath these specialisations, but of the two disciplines the I Ching is far easier to learn, to teach, to talk about across different cultures, as is the MBTI, as is Mathematics and so those are my sample space for IDM. That said, the main focus here and on my ichingplus list is the I Ching. Any takers on ancient taoists use of the I Ching in remote viewing? ;-) (I think they too used the 'reflection' technique for predictions - cant recall any references though)

All I have seen from Davidl so far is (a) extreme criticality ( I can tolerate a degree ;-)), (b) elitism, (c) dismissiveness. All of it not necessary. I am not really interested in dealing with any of these, not prepared to put in the energy. I do not dismiss what he is doing in that now knowing the details I recognise the source and understand the properties of methods of that specialist source but it is just 'another' specialisation and as such is not 'above' any other - even if Davidl believes, or needs to believe, it is.

As for neurosciences and IDM, I have repeatedly stated that the material is not there to REPLACE anything, more so to GROUND specialisations in their roots - our species-nature. Davidl's original emails reflected the notion that his perspective was in some way 'superior' to Science [no idea, he supplied no precise, clear, examples] and which had to 'catch up' etc etc - no need for such comments in that they elicit hostility for no reason other than to elicit 'A/NOT-A' arguments.

As such my perspective, which is rooted in Science due to its consistency in producing data and experiments that serve to predict, is a GUIDE for specialisations in that, being from the species-nature, is general over all. IF, on the otherhand, you went through my Hexagram Notes material or the IDM material and found it 'boring, bit of wank, useless, where does this guy get his crappy ideas?' etc etc then I would obviously have some 'issues' to deal with ;-)

Once you understand IDM, you forget it, it works in background rather than upfront like the specialisations. Why does it do this? because it reflects instincts and as such elements of the collective unconscious. simple. Davidl could even use it in his qabalah work to decode some of the ancient metaphors! ;-)

Jung wrote:

"... it must be remembered that our individual conscious psychology develops out of an original state of unconsciousness and therefore of non-differentiation... Consequently, consciousness of differentiation is a relatively late achievement of mankind and presumably but a relatively small sector of the indefinitely large field of original identity. Differentiation is the essence, the sin qua non of consciousness. Everything unconscious is undifferentiated , and everything that happens unconsciously proceeds on the basis of non-differentiation - that is to say, there is no determining whether it belongs or does not belong to oneself. It cannot be established a priori whether it concerns me, or another, or both. Nore does feeling give us any sure clues in this respect." The Relation Between the Ego and the Unconscious IN S. de Laszlo, V., (Ed) (1990) The Basic Writings of C.J. Jung. p181 PUP

..and the neurosciences seem to be backing him up (what is being said here 'fits' the dimension of precision, the differentiated(Binary, precise)/integrated(unary, approximate) dimension etc etc)

> You are not afraid of any as yet unknown storms such a
> meeting might cause in your mind, aren't you? [ biggrin ]
>

huh?.. oh I see, the attempted challange! LOL! your funny! sorry dude, no taker here. you wanna talk IC and neurology? IC and MBTI/Psychology? IC and Mathematics? cool. you wanna talk remote viewing and qabalah? fine, start a thread but dont expect any 'in depth' contributions from me.

Chris.

 

[dharma]

<CENTER>Quote
___________________
[ on my toes ]

Ouch!! [ biggrin ]

Luis
___________________

oops!

better than riding on your coat-tails though

</CENTER>

 

[martin]

Hi Chris,

The intended challenge was: can you forget your favorite maps (interpretation schemes) for a moment and communicate without them?
And you did it in your last post!

Of course David also has his favorite maps, like we all have.
So, I should reformulate my 'challenge', make it more symmetrical: Can you both leave your maps at home and meet each other in the open, mentally naked

, as it were?

Martin

 

[davidl]

Chris,
Please explain the elitist comment. The reason being that I find most of the material you provide to be, well, elitist. This of course could be the mirror reflecting the mirror. My reasons for maintaining interest in techniques such as toning etc. is more to do with the universal qualities of it, quite the opposite of elitist qualities. It is free, easy, can be done anywhere, anytime, by anyone, of any age at any level of intelligence. People of all different languages and culture can come together and practice. I have found long term benefits to my general well being, happiness and contentment, as do many others, again of all different natures.

In essence I find your material interesting, but because of its style and complexity , difficult to integrate into my life in a way that could have any real benefit. Could you please explain the benefits of your system to mankind. If your material is written in a way that is difficult to understand is this not a type of elitism.

 

[davidl]

Dharma,
I usually like to cut to the chase, in fact I always like to cut to the chase. I find that when people start to write pages of structured, thought out, revised and copyrighted material on forums such as these, they have an agenda. Personally I have no agenda, just what comes as I type. I also understand that when you have an agenda that it is easier to feel that someone is criticising.
If you care to look at my various disagreements in previous forums, it has usually been initiated by a very well structured, erudite, 'friendly' statement , that is hiding a not so obvious put down, such as your comment.
Q. ......The former lulls you into a false sense of security where the illusions convince you that a belief in a Grand Director embues you with some special "holiness" that others who don't feel the need to believe, aren't blessed with. How ego-centric is that? End quote.

Well, to call someone profoundly ego centric with feelings of superiority because they believe in a creator is as I said before, well written, nicely structured , copyrighted crap.

This type of thinking was used very well by the Nazi regime, who convinced a nation that the Jews should be eliminated for similiar reasons that you have mentioned.

I of course realise that you don't intend to send all believers to the gas chambers, but remember that previous to world war 2 , Germany was considered to be the most advanced in science, literature, philosophy, medicine, dare I say humanities, you name it Germany was riding high. It then took this brilliance and turned it into the murder of millions of innocent people. If you chose to 'publish' comments such as these then expect to be openly questioned as to its true meaning.

 

[chrislofting]

>
> In essence I find your material interesting, but because of
> its style and complexity , difficult to integrate into my
> life in a way that could have any real benefit. Could you
> please explain the benefits of your system to mankind.

The IDM abstract:

By identifying the basic methodology used by the brain in the process of deriving meaning, of identifying something of significance or of potential significance, akin to Gregory Bateson's "difference that makes a difference", we can identify the properties and methods within that methodology that go to giving the species its ability to identify and re-identify and as such we can map-out the basic set of universal categories used in the identification process. From this general perspective we can go on and refine the more particular categorisation systems used in different collectives since those categorisation systems all serve as metaphors for the general categorisation process that is shared across our species as well as across all neuron-dependent species. Furthermore, besides giving us insights to our general species nature, so we gain insights into the implementation of a sense of meaning for AI systems.


The draft, still incomplete, IDM summary page - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/idmsumm.html

The IDM introduction page - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/idm002.html

Some 'get it' quickly, others need to re-read a couple of time but eventually they 'get it'.

perseverence furthers.

BTW there were insinuations encoded in you last email to Dharma that were VERY uncool.

Chris.

 

[dharma]

David,

>I usually like to cut to the chase, in fact I always like to
>cut to the chase. I find that when people start to write
>pages of structured, thought out, revised and copyrighted
>material on forums such as these, they have an agenda.
>Personally I have no agenda, just what comes as I type. I
>also understand that when you have an agenda that it is
>easier to feel that someone is criticising.

Hey, if you take your blinders off for a moment and take a look back behind you will notice that this whole page was started by someone who shared a list of what he believes are "The 7 Laws" yet you didn't seem bothered by his structured, thought out and revised material. So who's bullshitting who here?

Everyone has an agenda, even you David, so don't kid yourself about that. That they are expressed differently depends on each individual and how much headway they've made. There are those who are conscious and clear about what that is and act with purpose and direction. (I am writing a book - it's no secret nor a crime, as far as I know.) Then there are those who are unconscious of it and aim their frustrations and resentment at those who express themselves with too much confidence. Yours, for instance, seems focused on cutting-to-the-chase by expounding your "personal truth" with the back of your hand to make sure that you are heard.

But I'm a pretty tough cookie...

with a lot of energy yet! But should you find me walking away in the mid-sentence it'll only be because my Piscean nature will take pity on the damage you are taking or my Aries moon will simply become bored with your hogwash.

>If you care to look at my various disagreements in previous
>forums, it has usually been initiated by a very well
>structured, erudite, 'friendly' statement , that is hiding a
>not so obvious put down, such as your comment.
>Q. ......The former lulls you into a false sense of security
>where the illusions convince you that a belief in a Grand
>Director embues you with some special "holiness" that others
>who don't feel the need to believe, aren't blessed with. How
>ego-centric is that? End quote.

>Well, to call someone profoundly ego centric >with feelings
>of superiority because they believe in a creator >is as I
>said before, well written, nicely structured , >copyrighted
>crap.

Again, let me point out that I did not point a finger at anyone -I merely observed- yet the comment made you jump to attention as though recognizing that the description fit you to a T. And now you hand over some crap of your own to justify your reaction as logical by blaming my "well written, nicely structured, copyrighted" material as the offense. I wonder how dumb you really think the rest of the board really is.

>This type of thinking was used very well by the >Nazi regime,
>who convinced a nation that the Jews should be >eliminated
>for similiar reasons that you have mentioned.

>I of course realise that you don't intend to send all
>believers to the gas chambers, but remember that previous to
>world war 2 , Germany was considered to be the most advanced
>in science, literature, philosophy, medicine, dare I say
>humanities, you name it Germany was riding high. It then
>took this brilliance and turned it into the murder of
>millions of innocent people. If you chose to 'publish'
>comments such as these then expect to be openly questioned
>as to its true meaning.

What in the hell are you going on about here?? How did your brain manage to twist my ideas into a sick antisemitic knot?? If this was the only card you had left to use to back yourself out of the tight corner you walked yourself into... well, may be I should take pity on you now.

©2003 Dharma

 

[davidl]

Dharma,
The statement
Q. ......The former lulls you into a false sense of security
where the illusions convince you that a belief in a Grand
Director embues you with some special "holiness" that others who don't feel the need to believe, aren't blessed with. How ego-centric is that? End quote.

is a classic 'straw man' argument, as stated before, commonly used to villify and particularly well used by the Nazis. It works by first falsley imbuing some one or group with a negative characteristic, then going about criticising them for it. This type of argument is one well worth jumping on.

As for the remarks on Frandochs openening 'laws', I saw no coersion, no critisism of others, no big sell, no copyright,
no agenda. Hence no problem.

Dharma, please do me a favor and look back over the posts from the beginning. Who has made personal attacks? Who seems to feel they have all the answers? Who has changed the agenda or focus to suit? Please take the time to do this,
and please explain why you feel Im in a tight corner? Reflecting again.

 

[davidl]

Dharma,

by the way, my astro
Sun in Aries
Mercury Aries
Moon Gemini
Ascendant Taurus
Mars Cancer
Saturn Capricorn
Jupiter Sagittarius.

meaning ?

 

[heylise]

I am a golddigger. I sieve many many pebbles and a lot of mud out, and sometimes I find a real beautiful nugget. I don't mind the stones and the sand and the mud, they are part of finding gold. Even in this thread there was gold (a nice nugget from Chris, another one from Dharma), but there also was a lot I discarded. I don't read mud, simply skip it, but someone else maybe needs that too, makes great mud-packs for a strong skin. So for me the mud is okay.

Happy with the gold

LiSe

 

[martin]

He has gold (sun) in Aries, she has silver (moon) in Aries.
Should give very nice jewelry.
But first the two metals need to melt. No problem, the battle field of Aries generates the necessary heat

"Good fortune in the end"

 

[dharma]

David,

>is a classic 'straw man' argument, as stated before,
>commonly used to villify and particularly well used by the
>Nazis. It works by first falsley imbuing some one or group
>with a negative characteristic, then going about criticising
>them for it. This type of argument is one well worth jumping
>on.

David, your cup runneth over.

You will NEVER understand where I am coming from until you stop trying to force my thoughts into the narrow confines of what you already are convinced is the truth of my meaning. (Read again, and again until this sentence makes perfect sense - only then do I stand a chance of being understood correctly)

You are saying that any and all statements I make can and will be interpreted in such a way as to bring about the destruction of many peoples, and I therefore should seriously consider refraining from either sharing my thoughts all together or ordering my words in such a way as to eliminate any possible mis-interpretation on other people's part.

Delusional expectation; impossible and not likely

You think that because other people's thinking processes could take my words and twist them dangerously into a meaning that, I the writer never intended them to mean, that I am responsible for what THEY do with them? David this fearful perspective grants writer's with unrealistic powers and is the type of thinking that ultimately restricts and censors creativity in the majority. How can someone ever take the risk of penning anything and going public with it when paranoid people like yourself are running around REACTING to other people on first impulse by shooting first and asking questions later!

If you, or someone who thinks under a narrow light for instance, is incapable of gleaning the true worth of a writer's original intention as it was set forth, then it is YOU the reader who is solely responsible for the personal and selective interpretation you arrive at in the end not the writer. The words and the ideas themselves are not what start wars, it's what PEOPLE do with them. And atrocities are not avoided by restricting other people's freedom of speech and deeming their efforts "dangerous" because someone else is convinced of the rightness of their position on the matter, but by each person cultivating responsability (the ability to respond) and acting when action need be taken rather than believing that true power to change reality is beyond THEM and only in the hands of some outside agent.

(therein lies the dangerous thinking)

My "offending" post, that you continually quote from as though you understand it's meaning, still ELUDES you or we would not be having this discussion. My words were not meant to ever be used as a weapon against other people (but then again there are a lot of things brought into this world that are used in a way that they were never intended to be used). My words in this case were meant to cause one to look inward and detect any value judgements of this type as not worth the separation it creates from your fellowman as it is borne of egocentric thinking.

My whole point was that life is occuring within and because we are projecting and viewing it outwards we may inadvertantly believe the shadows we cast on the cave walls to be Reality (Plato's idea originally). When what is OUT there appears to you wrong or distorted, it cannot be corrected by manipulating or attempting to effect change to the outer form (other people, for instance). For if I stand before a mirror and see blemishes on my skin, how useful is it to me to attempt to correct my imperfections by applying foundation onto the mirror itself? Seems silly, yet this is precisely what many people do. Mirrors (other people) are there merely that we may see our faults more clearly but the corrections may only be made from within.

(pointe, fini)


>Dharma, please do me a favor and look back over the posts
>from the beginning. Who has made personal attacks? Who seems
>to feel they have all the answers? Who has changed the
>agenda or focus to suit?

You. Perhaps if you took your own advice and read over the posts again you would notice that I did not attack anyone but that you most definitely attacked me when you stepped forward to call my ideas "crap". I merely defended myself rather than let you defecate all over my good intentions. Next time, take the time to read carefully and then inquire as to my intention before you make wild assumptions that only reflect your own mind process at work and have nothing to do with my intentions.

Dharma

 

[davidl]

Dharma,
Thank you for explaining my obvious personal weaknesses,
I think Chris previously mentioned a few more, (egotistical, critical, dismissive, elitist). You have added, attacking, incapable, etc etc.
Where have I addressed any personal insults?
There is a difference between attacking an idea, written concept or product, and attacking the person.
As Meyer Baba once stated, after seeing his 5 year old niece taking a crap. "lets not confuse the person for the crap" (or something like that).
Dharma, you stated that I attacked 'you' when I jumped on your statement, I didn't say that you were crap, I said the statement was. If you 'own' that statement then thats your problem, and thats the difference between open discussion and having an agenda, those with the agenda feel ownership of the words and can get very sensitive. Also because I used a word like 'crap' instead of 50 words that seem nicer but generally mean the same thing, you cast me as the 'defecator on your good intentions' , now thats much nicer than 'the crapper on my good intentions, but it means the same.
Anyway lets not fight anymore about this, lets start arguing about something else, and I promise to look at my personal deficencies and I wont call your words crap anymore, forgive me?
davidl (head bowed, slowly wagging tail)


Chris,

Finally, I understand,

Quote : ....Furthermore, besides giving us insights to our general species nature, so we gain insights into the implementation of a sense of meaning for AI systems.
End quote.

Artificial Intelligence now that is an interesting agenda.

What is the mission statement for say the next 20 years in such an endevour?
Fleshy automatons with artificial 'meaning' in their lives?
Man 'creating' a new race?

Or are you building a better vacuum cleaner, that 'really' cares about its work?

If you sense sarcasm its not my intention, I do find this AI thing quite an important subject, can we discuss it?

 

[chrislofting]

> Chris,
>
> Finally, I understand,
>
> Quote : ....Furthermore, besides giving us insights to our
> general species nature, so we gain insights into the
> implementation of a sense of meaning for AI systems.
> End quote.
>
> Artificial Intelligence now that is an interesting agenda.
>
> What is the mission statement for say the next 20 years in
> such an endevour?
> Fleshy automatons with artificial 'meaning' in their lives?
> Man 'creating' a new race?
>
> Or are you building a better vacuum cleaner, that 'really'
> cares about its work?
>
> If you sense sarcasm its not my intention,

then why not write it such that the tone of sarcasm does not come through in the first place? ;-) The fact that you wrote the above re ?sensing sarcasm? suggests you picked that up in reading what you wrote. All it takes is to reword what you wrote otherwise keeping the original prose and adding the ?if you sense,,,? comes across as you being passive-aggressive... or just lazy.

There is no problem in writing something and going back to edit it, to ?refine? the expression ;-) - otherwise communication can be 'difficult'.

> I do find this AI
> thing quite an important subject, can we discuss it?

I would suggest this sort of conversation be carried on elsewhere - eg. my IDM list

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/IDMeaning

Chris

 

[davidl]

Chris,
I thought I joined the IDM group but think I've succeeded in joining the Intelligent Dance Music forum instead ? I will try again.

 

[dharma]

Davidl,

>Dharma, you stated that I attacked 'you' when I jumped on
>your statement, I didn't say that you were crap, I said the
>statement was. If you 'own' that statement then thats your
>problem, and thats the difference between open discussion
>and having an agenda, those with the agenda feel ownership
>of the words and can get very sensitive. Also because I used
>a word like 'crap' instead of 50 words that seem nicer but
>generally mean the same thing, you cast me as the 'defecator
>on your good intentions' , now thats much nicer than 'the
>crapper on my good intentions, but it means the same.

David, I do realize that you were aiming at the statement and not at me specifically. However, if my response seemed overly sensitive to you it is because I always think quite carefully before I speak and in that sense I "own" my words and take responsibility for what I put out there. Any statements I make are an extention of mySelf experience that I must account for when they are being questioned. If that is having an agenda then I'm guilty as charged. Words are alive and so I use them as thoughtfully as possible for maximum effect. Also, if I'm slamming into someone, for instance, I'm doing it with full understanding and purpose so that we both know what's coming down - this is not sugarcoating despite the prettier vocabulary I may choose to use to convey my intention.

>Anyway lets not fight anymore about this, lets start arguing
>about something else, and I promise to look at my personal
>deficencies and I wont call your words crap anymore, forgive
>me?

Great!

Have a good one, David

Sincerely, Dharma

 

[dharma]

David,

>by the way, my astro
>Sun in Aries
>Mercury Aries
>Moon Gemini
>Ascendant Taurus
>Mars Cancer
>Saturn Capricorn
>Jupiter Sagittarius.

>meaning ?

Based on your age and the above info I took a few wild guesses and came up with a chart that is as close as I'm going to get with the data I have on hand. I figured your birthdate to be around April 13th in 1959 at approx. 9AM, also assuming you were born in Sydney, Australia. Did I come close?

Then using a small free program that I found on-line at:

http://www.astrologyguidance.com/updates.shtml

got you a mini natal report based on the abbreviated highlights of the full length (PNR) Professional Natal Report which can be had at the following URL for a price:

http://alabe.com/chartservice/natal.html

I have no connection to these people so I am not promoting them one way or the other (meaning: no agenda

)


April 13 1959
9:00 AM Time Zone is -10 Hrs. Includes daylight time if applicable.
Sydney, Australia

Rising Sign is in 25 Degrees Taurus
Calm and deliberate, you hate to move quickly or act hastily. Very practical, every effort must count or you can't be bothered. Patient, persistent and steady, but very stubborn -- you can't be pushed or pressured into anything. You seem outwardly self-assured because you tend to repress your inner tension and turmoil. You exude an earthy warmth, friendliness and charm. You demand comfortable surroundings and appreciate the good life. Be careful of a tendency to be overly self-indulgent. At times, you are lazy and difficult to motivate. Overcoming inertia is a problem for you and, because you are not by nature a self-starter, it is often necessary for you to receive stimuli from others in order to get moving.

Sun is in 22 Degrees Aries
By nature, you are very energetic and high-spirited. You are fiercely independent -- you must be first in everything you do, and you enjoy taking risks. You are the one who will rush in where angels fear to tread. Quite brilliant at initiating new projects, you are terrible at following them through to completion. You are an enthusiastic leader but you tend to be a reluctant follower. Often you are quick to anger, but you usually recover just as fast, regretting later things you said when you were upset. One of your best traits is that you are simple and direct, blunt and honest -- just be careful you do not hurt others' feelings. Your need to be competitive at all costs may provoke resistance from others, but, as long as you maintain your usual Sunny good humor, this should not prove to be a major problem for you.

Moon is in 14 Degrees Gemini
Restless in the extreme, you are easily bored because of your short attention span. Your emotions change rapidly and you love to talk about your feelings. Generally, you have good judgment -- your intellect controls your emotions and you do not overreact emotionally to things. A good jack-of-all-trades, you have many- sided interests and enjoy reasoning things through. With your mental agility and need for physical mobility, you are attracted to traveling and learning about other peoples and cultures. You have vivid powers of emotional self-expression - - you can be a nonstop talker. You love to share your ideas with anyone who will listen.

Mercury is in 00 Degrees Aries
Very quick-witted, you are known for being an independent thinker. You love to debate and argue, and are excellent at repartee and battles of wits. At times, however, you act too fast on hastily formed opinions and thus waste a lot of energy defending your rash and sometimes incorrect conclusions. It is perfectly acceptable for you to defend your beliefs with your usual vigor, but try not to take the opinions of others as personal insults.

Venus is in 27 Degrees Taurus
You are known to be a warm and affectionate person, and you tend to form long- lasting attachments. The reverse of this is that you can also be quite possessive once you have made a commitment. The beauty, luxury and comfort of your surroundings are important to you and you will devote much time and energy to making your home just right. Beware of your tendency toward self-indulgence, especially with respect to eating incorrectly. You also need outside stimuli to get you in gear When things come too easily for you, you can be lazy and indolent.

Mars is in 01 Degrees Cancer
Your moods are very important to your overall well-being. You are confident and self-assertive when you are feeling upbeat, and you are retiring, irritable and grumpy when you get depressed about anything. Very sensitive, you wear your heart on your sleeve. You are easily angered whenever you think someone has slighted you. It is best for you to show your anger immediately and let it all out, rather than to try to hold it in or to hold grudges for a long time. You're extremely loyal and defensive of your family, neighborhood, community and culture.

Jupiter is in 01 Degrees Sagittarius
You have a very strong sense of ethics and morality. You are widely read and may also be widely traveled because you are sincerely interested in expanding your knowledge of the world about you. At times, you have an annoying tendency to be self-righteous and preachy about your belief system. You are usually quite idealistic and you demand the right to be able to explore the entire world of experiences yourself. Remember to grant others the similar right -- be tolerant, not dogmatic.

Saturn is in 07 Degrees Capricorn
Very serious-minded and mature, you have the ability to take on responsibilities and to carry out important duties. You can also be trusted to be extremely practical and thrifty. A good organizer, you are the ideal one to be counted on to take a clearly defined project through to its logical conclusion. An achiever, you pride yourself on your ability to focus your attention totally on some worthy goal and then attain it.

Uranus is in 12 Degrees Leo
You, and your peers as well, demand complete and total freedom of self- expression. You want to make your mark in the world according to your own lights and will brook no interference from traditional authority figures, especially if they attempt to mold or shape you in any way. You are honest and forthright, but a bit offbeat and eccentric. The lack of self-discipline may hinder you from reaching your goals as quickly as you would like.

Neptune is in 05 Degrees Scorpio
You, and your entire generation, are extremely interested in anything deep and mysterious. You will explore and idealize the benefits that can accrue from the study of the occult, healing and psychology. You are willing to experiment with substances like drugs in order to push your understanding of your inner being to the extreme.

Pluto is in 01 Degrees Virgo
For your entire generation, this will be a time when profound changes in society's attitude toward work, duty and responsibility will be initiated. Radical changes in attitudes toward personal health and general nutrition will be promulgated and gain wide acceptance and practice.

North Node is in 12 Degrees Libra
You find it very difficult to be comfortable being alone -- you would much prefer to be in an environment where many people are working together toward common goals. Your charming and sincere approach to others assures your popularity -- you have the gift of being able to ease tensions just by your mere presence. You're the perfect "team player" willing to sacrifice your own importance so that the group goal can be accomplished. Be careful, however, not to become overly dependent on your interactions with others -- you have personal private needs that should not be neglected.

 

[gene]

David

I guess I can relate a little bit to your chart, being an Aries with moon in Gemini and Virgo rising. (March 28, 1947 Boise, ID MST, 6:03 PM.) They say Aries sun and Gemini moon is the talkiest sun moon combination in the zodiac, although that does not apply to me except when I get onto a subject I am extremely knowledgeable about. If Dharma's analysis is correct, and you were born April 13 1959 then you also have a Mars square mercury aspect which could give you a bit of talkativeness too. With this combination there could be many ideas that are going on inside, and focusing on one may bring you dismay. You like to give them all consideration. This chart, if it is truly yours, could lend to excited discussions... It is good to have all different kinds of people on the board as we can all learn from each other, even in discussion that is heated.

By the way, Dharma, one good place to go online to put together a chart is astrodienst.com. It has a world atlas that I have found extremely helpful. Although I use the program, solar fire on my computer.

Best to everybody.
Gene

 

[davidl]

Dharma,
Thanks for the chart, you were pretty close, I was born on the 12th April 1959, in a small coastal town further north than Sydney, but your chart is spot on anyway. All I can say is thank goodness for venus in taurus, it tends to smooth things out a little after all the aries/gemini stuff lets loose.

Gene,
Its good to know that Im not the only 'fired' up one around here, but us Aries folk are so misunderstood? (hee hee).