the ways of the oracle

[jesed]

Further, your assumption it is obvious so many hexagrams by line structure mean only Yes and No totally eludes me.

You read me wrong (once again)
I'm not saying that this hexagrams ONLY means yes/no; and I'm not saying this is based on "line structure" or "King Wen's Order"

I'm saying that, WHEN THE QUESTION IS A YES/NO QUESTION, and WHEN YOU USE THIS WAY OF READING (najia), the answer is yes or no. That doesn't deny the whole range of other meanings with other techniques and for other kind of questions.

And even in this way (najia) and for those yes/no questions, it is not so easy because there are several exceptions.

For najia, when the question is a yes/no question, an unchanging total combine hexagram means yes; and unchanging total clash hexagram means no. But you need to check the month/day when the coins were tossed to see if it is really an unchanging hexagram for this technique.

Total Combine Hexagrams: 24, 22, 60, 16, 56, 47, 11 and 12
Total Clash Hexagrams: 1,2,29,30,51,52,57,58, 34 and 25.

Best wishes

 

[fkegan]

Hi Jesed,

My apologies for not assuming all the content in your last post from your first post. Seems like a remarkable effort to reduce a simple Yi Oracle into just a Yes/No response. And what happens if you get any of the many other hexagrams in response?

Frank

 

[jesed]

Hi Frank
In thoses cases, you need to work with the energies of the lines.
Example: your question is will I recieve that money in the next 3 weeks?; then, you need to look at the "subject line" and the "money" line. If the money produces the subject, you'll recieve it; if the subject destroys the money, you won't; if the money aspect is "hidden", you need to see the energy of month , the day and the line under the money is hidden. If the money can get out of hide, you'll face some delays but you'll recieve it; if the money cann't get out of hide, you won't.

Best wishes

 

[robibiro]

hi Jesed
according to your personal experience, using this sistem , does it work every time?

 

[meng]

Hi Bruce,

The problem with Yes/No questions is that they can only affirm or deny what you have proposed without any independent input in terms of what is the entire scenario and development process going on.

Perhaps someone doesn't wish to view the entire scenario. I know there's times I want to get to the bottom line, sans all the details and lectures. Not my best times, admittedly, but..

I find yes/no examples to exist mostly in determining future outcomes, i.e. will it snow? than it would to a decision making scenario, i.e. should I ____? or even, would it be better/advantageous to ___? In this sense, Dora was speaking to present potentials while Jesed was speaking to future outcomes. That's an important distinction in this discussion.

As far as making life easier by not peeking under veils, I find it hard to imagine a more boring life than that. Questioning self is what makes life evolve. My dad always asked, why do you do everything the hard way? shrug.. I dunno.. guess I learn more by crawlin' under the porch among the cobwebs and cat turds.

 

[rodaki]

In this sense, Dora was speaking to present potentials while Jesed was speaking to future outcomes. That's an important distinction in this discussion.

thanks for pointing that out . . I think that the main difference between mine and Jesed's point was that I was trying to talk about the techniques for gathering data and Jesed about the techniques to interpret the data gathered . . i don't think there's a disagreement there . . i too agree that given the right methods we can translate or interpret any answer in terms of pure black or white . . we can calculate their place according to a scale and see towards which end they tend, towards the yes side or the no side . . but that doesn't mean necessarily that nature manifests in a yes/no way . .

maybe this is like watching time . . I can ask what time it is or I can ask if it's night . . in both cases the clock's answer is the same, say, 5 am. It's up to us then to calculate if 5 am means yes or no in the 'is it night' question


say we want to ask whether it's gonna rain . . in my eyes, throwing a coin once is like isolating a part of the cloud and trying to determine if it carries rain or not -it obviously does, it is vaporized water and at the same time, it doesn't necessarily promise rain . . making a Yi throw we take into account the whole process of change, the clouds' formations, the winds and the atmospheric pressures that preside at the region at that time . . that way we can then calculate whether the signs are favorable for rain or not (that is, if the answer we can extract from the data gathered points towards yes or no)

 

[rodaki]

ok, since what I have posted here so far is based on my own conjectures/thoughts, I thought it would be more interesting to ask Yi about the one-coin-toss method . . I asked two general questions, one a yes/no question, the other not ('Yi, is tossing a coin a good/reliable way to get answers in yes/no questions?' and 'Yi, how good/reliable is the one-coin-toss method for obtaining answers in yes/no questions?') and got some interesting results, but since this is Robibiro's thread and I already have a more-or-less formed opinion, maybe it would be best if he did the toss? Robibiro?

 

[jesed]

hi Jesed
according to your personal experience, using this sistem , does it work every time?

MMM, how can I answer?

1.- When a pronostication fails, there is always the question: was the answer wrong? OR was the interpreter wrong? Even so, I've find that some times, (few times) the answer was actually wrong
2.- I've find no technique works 100%; there are diferent attempts to explain that fact.
3.- I've find this technique works better than the text-based analysis for some questions; and for other questions the text-based analysis works better
4.- In regards of knowing dates when something may happen; I've find this technique works better than Blofeld's, but Andree's technique is more accurate than this one.

Best wishes

 

[fkegan]

MMM, how can I answer?

1.- When a pronostication fails, there is always the question: was the answer wrong? OR was the interpreter wrong? Even so, I've find that some times, (few times) the answer was actually wrong
2.- I've find no technique works 100%; there are diferent attempts to explain that fact.
3.- I've find this technique works better than the text-based analysis for some questions; and for other questions the text-based analysis works better
4.- In regards of knowing dates when something may happen; I've find this technique works better than Blofeld's, but Andree's technique is more accurate than this one.

Best wishes

Hi Jessed,

The essence of the problem of the Yes/No question (and therefore of any and all techniques to attempt an answer) is that by the time you can judge if the answer might be correct the whole matter is history and the point moot.

This is simply a result of the limitations of the entire notion of a Yes or No question. They can only, at best, affirm or deny your own expectation and then only after it no longer matters since it is by then obvious. Will it rain tomorrow, yes or no? Only later can you be sure and then you will also know if that rain was just a meaningless bit of drizzle or a major interference with your plans or a great beginning to a wonderful growing season. None of which could be contained in either a Yes or No answer at all in any way.

It is a limitation of the Yes/No format itself not just of the various techniques one might choose for use.

As Meng put it, sometimes he just wants the Yes/No and recognizes those aren't his peak experiences. Put in context that is the result of only being concerned with one's own expectations which never is anyone's ideal reality.

It isn't that the Yi Oracle can't or shouldn't be used for Yes/No questions, it is that such questions aren't real inquiries just reflections of cloudy ego states. Perhaps in such circumstances one is in no condition to attempt divination, and certainly flipping a coin or other such technique puts off the reckoning of what is really your problem to another day.

The social science set suggest this coin flip technique for situations where you have reduced your issues to a simple Yes/No or other dichotomy: Having only two alternatives flip a coin to decide between them. Either the result settles the matter for you or if it doesn't clearly the other alternative is what you truly want. Either way the uncertainty is over.

To add the answer for those seeking their answer from Higher Authority assuming somehow their technique can oblige that from Source... have faith in your coin flip today, when the prediction is history which is the only logical possibility for any Yes/No technique you will have to reconsider anyway.

Or to put it more universally, If you NEED a Yes/No answer NOW the answer is WAIT! You can't handle the answer yet.

Good Luck!

Frank

 

[nicky_p]

It isn't that the Yi Oracle can't or shouldn't be used for Yes/No questions, it is that such questions aren't real inquiries just reflections of cloudy ego states. Perhaps in such circumstances one is in no condition to attempt divination, and certainly flipping a coin or other such technique puts off the reckoning of what is really your problem to another day........
......... If you NEED a Yes/No answer NOW the answer is WAIT! You can't handle the answer yet.

Hi Frank,

I agree. In retrospect I've found that the times when I've asked yes/no questions are the times when I want to remove the responsibility of the decision making process from myself. Of course it is in retrospect... unfortunately I'm not so aware of it at the time

 

[jesed]

The essence of the problem of the Yes/No question (and therefore of any and all techniques to attempt an answer) is that by the time you can judge if the answer might be correct the whole matter is history and the point moot.

What if someone has reached a high level of accuracy for this kind of question? Let's say, 95% of accuracy?
What if one present decision (called A/B) can change depending if some third event (called X) would or wouldn't occur in the near future?
What if, by the time X would happen or not, the chance to make decision (A/B) would be lost?
What if you can derivate a yes/no interpretation for the question "will X happen?" and therefor -with a high confidence in the accuracy of that- you chose in time A (or B)?
And what if, in time the interpretation was correct and the decision was a good one?

Let's say X is the value of some stocks in the next month, and the decision is to invest (or not) today. Will the price of X increase for the next 30 days? Would you wait for the moment when you could know if the answer was right or wrong?

Of course, you can ask in a diferent way: what would be the effect if I invest in X today? or what should I know about investing in X? or is good for me to invest in X? etc

I know that. In fact, I would suggest that other aproach. But that doesn't make me disregard if someone ask in a more predictive way. And I would never judge him/her as cloudy ego.

Well..I'll leave this thread.

 

[meng]

mmm...

I've asked way more egocentric and petty questions than 'will this happen?', and generally have no problem applying Yi's answers.

For me, it's probably my own doubt which makes asking predictions less than my best. Or possibly my own wish, or my own standard. Mostly, I don't want to know the future. But I may be trying to decide something as superfluous as which guitar to keep and which to sell, and the Yi gives me great answers, if I'm open to receiving them. If not, then I'll interpret the reading as some sort of self correction message, which maybe it is, but maybe it isn't. Maybe the Yi gives more plain information than we can believe in, before we take and apply everything personally. I think there's a lot of self admonition where none was intended by Yi's answer. Not every situation calls for self adjustment or correction, nor even self understanding. Not to say a good deal of Yi doesn't reckon with our natures, but to think everything should be about me and my head, that would be ego driven.

 

[rodaki]

Well..I'll leave this thread.

Maybe the Yi gives more plain information than we can believe in, before we take and apply everything personally. I think there's a lot of self admonition where none was intended by Yi's answer.

:bows:
(especially the self-admonition part can be sooo difficult to let go . .)

 

[fkegan]

What if someone has reached a high level of accuracy for this kind of question? Let's say, 95% of accuracy?
What if one present decision (called A/B) can change depending if some third event (called X) would or wouldn't occur in the near future?
What if, by the time X would happen or not, the chance to make decision (A/B) would be lost?
What if you can derivate a yes/no interpretation for the question "will X happen?" and therefor -with a high confidence in the accuracy of that- you chose in time A (or B)?
And what if, in time the interpretation was correct and the decision was a good one?

Let's say X is the value of some stocks in the next month, and the decision is to invest (or not) today. Will the price of X increase for the next 30 days? Would you wait for the moment when you could know if the answer was right or wrong?

Of course, you can ask in a diferent way: what would be the effect if I invest in X today? or what should I know about investing in X? or is good for me to invest in X? etc

I know that. In fact, I would suggest that other aproach. But that doesn't make me disregard if someone ask in a more predictive way. And I would never judge him/her as cloudy ego.

Well..I'll leave this thread.

Hi Jessed,

Sorry if my general remarks upset you personally.

Each person has their own relationship with the Yi Oracle. If it works for you in some way that is great. However, this thread is about 'the ways of the oracle' in general and none of us can guarantee that anyone else will get the results they expect based upon what another person finds.

My remarks about Yes/No questions were general and based upon the limitation of such simple dichotomies to contain much real information. They only involve your own statement with the only option for the Oracle being to affirm or deny it. I would not accept such terms myself nor would I expect any counsel from any source to do so. However, if you have such a technique that works for you, great.

As to your example of buying stocks in the market expecting a profit in some months in the future, that I know a bit about. There are many systems of reading the current and recent history of the market in some stock that often work very well much of the time. However, there are always occasions when the whole of the market of buyers and holders of one stock is upset by new buyers or short-sellers appearing for reasons having nothing to do with anything connected to that stock. Therefore, to get successful market advice from the Yi Oracle, one needs to believe the Oracle knows about or controls market outcomes at some indefinite time in the future. Personally, I have only found the Oracle works as a current reading of the momentum and timing NOW and outside forces at future times may well change everything.

However, each person is well entitled to their own opinion as well their own relationship to the Yi, though not to their own set of facts or subjective conclusions about how general policy or remarks reflect upon their ego states whether cloudy, clear or overcast.

Frank

 

[jannyjan]

Robiro The ways of the oracle

I tried the RTCM method of Carol Anthony. You cast one coin 3 times (or 3 coins one time) and interpret the result +++ as strong yes resp, yes resp. no withsome conditions(++- and --+ , or --- as totally no.
I think I learned much of her books before, but after reading her book " Healing yourself the cosmic way", I tried this method, which didn´t work for me at all. I tried several times, but there were no results that I found were right (contrary to common questioning the Iching with 6 lines, which I trust)
Probably I tried to force the Yi to an answer and that is impossible as I see it. You must have a free acceptance in your mind, even to see and interprete the answer as quite independent of your ,for the Iching unimportant, question.

 

[elvis]

You must have a free acceptance in your mind, even to see and interprete the answer as quite independent of your ,for the Iching unimportant, question.

not necessarily - see the questions method at the bottom of the EIC page - http://www.emotionaliching.com

 

[answeredquestions]

the time we spend getting the answer

I couldn't read all of the posts because I am at work.

But my opinion I will give real quick.

To me the I ching is a bound book that holds all possible symbols.
Those symbols are images that line up with syncronicity (Jung syncronicity)

To me, syncronicity is experiencing/feeling/seeing etc. something, and it lining up with something else that you have experienced/felt/saw etc.

There are "Signs" all over this world, everywhere we look, that tell us we are on the right or wrong path. We just have to look. (sometimes it takes a number of signs to lead to 1 thing)

The I ching for me is a clear straight look at those signs. A pure channel.

---------------------------------

About tossing the one coin.......
I believe you could do that, and get an answer.
I think you would get an answer that speaks to you.

Before I got my yarrow stalks, I would think of a question, take the book in my hand, and open it.
Some of the answers I got are so profound. SYNCRONICITY at its best.

But there is something to be said in the yarrow. I think it is on the TIME that is spent counting out the stalks, laying them in piles, and finding your answer.
And I will tell you why:

Because in that frame of time, you are thinking about your question. You are sort of meditating on it. Wheather you are doing it on purpose or not. And in that time, thoughts, images, and everything surrounding your question is popping in and out of your head.

Sometimes this helps you to figure the way inwhich to look at your answer.
Something you wouldn't have had time to do if you just threw a coin.

And.. I don't think the I ching works in "Yes" and "No" answers that are black and white.
------But it is BUILT APON those very two dualities.--------
The dualities are put together to create a very complex system of 64 hexagrams.

There is not a hexagram called No... or ... Yes


Peace,
answeredquestions

 

[yrsa]

A friend of mine used to do the "quickie" I ching. He'd ask a question and then open the book to a random page. (Used Wilhem translation). It was a method that worked well for him and I would use it occasionally.

 

[mary f]

Hello everyone. Long time no see. Although somewhat late, guess I'll contribute too. Two points:

1) Last year or the year before I brought a thread asking about yes / no questions since I had found out about the technique that considered 9 as a "straight yes", 6 a "straight no", 7 as "yes, but..." and 8 as "no, but you're on the right track". I remember the low quorum of the thread, some resistance too, but at the end Hilary showed up and although reluctantly said something like she would consider the yes/no technique, but only to double check aspects related to a specific reading. Thus, I have to say it's been working well for me when I use it the same way.

2) If I'm not wrong, in the preface of Wilhelm's book Jung mentions something like the way coins fall would translate the consultant's energy brought from her/his Dao. Even if a gross idea and considering that the Yi works by building hexagrams, a possibility is that if the coins collect the energy to define whether fall as yin/yang/old yin/old yang, why wouldn't they work as above?

I missed you all.
Best.