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To leave my marriage or to stay? 49.4>63

K

Kayleighcakes22

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I have been asking the itching how best to approach my situation. I am married with a small child and contemplating leaving due to unhappiness.

I received this from the Iching, and not sure what to make of it? Please share your thoughts

Your reading resulted in the following hexagrams:

49​
63​
49.gif
changing to
63.gif

Hexagram 49, Radical Change​

49.gif


Key Questions​

How can you break the mould?
How must the form change to express the essence?

Oracle​

'Radical change.
On your own day, there is truth and confidence.
From the source, creating success, constancy bears fruit.
Regrets vanish.'

It is time for transformation. The old Chinese character for 'Radical Change', which also means 'leather', shows an animal hide: this is change like a shaman's, putting on a new skin to change your identity. And it is also revolutionary change: this hexagram marks the day when the Zhou people and their allies marched out to meet the armies of the corrupt Shang dynasty, and defeated them. You change the governing principle, and bring about renewal.

In the moment of change, there is truth – sincerity and a sure knowledge. Then the power of the whole unfolding creative process, from the source through to fruition and fulfilment, can enter here and change the world. Naturally regrets vanish, along with the past to which they belong. The new time is coming.

Image​

'In the centre of the lake there is fire: Radical Change.
A noble one calculates the heavenly signs and clarifies the seasons.'

Sequence​

Radical Change follows from Hexagram 48, the Well:
'The way of the Well does not allow things not to change radically.'

Pair​

Radical Change forms a pair with Hexagram 50, the Vessel:
'Radical Change puts away the old; the Vessel grasps renewal.'


Changing Lines​

Line 4​

'Regrets vanish, there is truth and confidence.
Changing mandate, good fortune.'

Hexagram 63, Already Across​

63.gif


Key Questions​

What is decided?
What now?

Oracle​

'Already across, creating small success.
Constancy bears fruit.
Beginnings, good fortune – endings, chaos.'

You have committed yourself and made a transition. Even if the change so far is internal, a resolve formed or decision made, there is a sense in which everything is in place. Now you create success in small ways and in small things: you attend to details, working with what you've already decided or achieved. In following through, you stay loyal to your original reasons for making the crossing.

The Zhou forded the river and overthrew the Shang dynasty. As they established their rule, they had in mind how the Shang once received the Mandate of Heaven to replace a corrupt dynasty. Now the Shang had forfeited the Mandate and were ending in chaos, while the Zhou enjoyed fortunate beginnings. Might the story repeat itself? It's easier to create new, clear-cut patterns for living than to live by them.

It's not that what you have begun here must inevitably fall apart. Only if you feel as if you've 'arrived' already and let yourself come to a halt, then you lose your path and then it all falls apart. Work with what you've accomplished so far, and keep your momentum: keep on beginning.

Image​

'Stream dwells above fire: Already Across.
A noble one reflects on distress and prepares to defend against it.'

Sequence​

Already Across follows from Hexagram 62, Small Exceeding:
'Going past others naturally means crossing the river, and so Already Across follows.'

Pair​

Already Across is paired and contrasted with Hexagram 64, Not Yet Across
'Already Across: calm and settled.'
'Not Yet Across: exhaustion of the male.'
 

Trojina

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Hello Kayleigh, in the below link there's some tips for presenting your reading in such a form that will help you get most responses.


If people can't see the change lines, and personally I can't often figure them out without a paper and pen to hand, it's a bit more work so they may not bother...So here getting pen and paper I figure you cast 49.4>63, that's the usual format to tell us the cast. You don't have to paste in the whole of the translation though having the line translation helps

The question was

I have been asking the itching how best to approach my situation. I am married with a small child and contemplating leaving due to unhappiness.
It's a big question so a little bit more background might help us see where you are in the situation and interpret more effectively.

At a glance this looks to me like a revolution well underway already. 63 can be a decision made

'Regrets vanish, there is truth and confidence.
Changing mandate, good fortune.'
It appears it is indeed a good time to put your plans into action and to leave. You can see that, regrets vanish, there's confidence in making a change.

But I don't know if you are confident, or if you have anywhere to go or if it is at all responsible for me to just tell you 'yes leave'. I know you aren't just going to go ahead and do what an online helper says here but still I have some reservations about being so definite when this could be a precarious situation. I mean the line is pretty definite clear and confident, there isn't the need for doubt here it looks like you could go ahead and make these changes with success. How do you feel about getting such a clear answer on this ? Do you have a clear plan to follow now or can you make one ?
 

Trojina

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Oh and btw there's a thread you may have forgotten as you never went back


...and this one, did you see you had replies there?

 
K

Kayleighcakes22

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Hello Kayleigh, in the below link there's some tips for presenting your reading in such a form that will help you get most responses.


If people can't see the change lines, and personally I can't often figure them out without a paper and pen to hand, it's a bit more work so they may not bother...So here getting pen and paper I figure you cast 49.4>63, that's the usual format to tell us the cast. You don't have to paste in the whole of the translation though having the line translation helps

The question was


It's a big question so a little bit more background might help us see where you are in the situation and interpret more effectively.

At a glance this looks to me like a revolution well underway already. 63 can be a decision made


It appears it is indeed a good time to put your plans into action and to leave. You can see that, regrets vanish, there's confidence in making a change.

But I don't know if you are confident, or if you have anywhere to go or if it is at all responsible for me to just tell you 'yes leave'. I know you aren't just going to go ahead and do what an online helper says here but still I have some reservations about being so definite when this could be a precarious situation. I mean the line is pretty definite clear and confident, there isn't the need for doubt here it looks like you could go ahead and make these changes with success. How do you feel about getting such a clear answer on this ? Do you have a clear plan to follow now or can you make one ?
Hi!

I've put everything in the thread if you read down I've copied and pastes the whole thread - changing line number 4

The situation is Ive wanted to leave for a long time but scared due to having a son, being financially dependent on him and also the fact that he is just a lovely man. A good father and provider my reasons for wanting to leave are just that I no longer feel a romantic connection or compatibility.
 
K

Kayleighcakes22

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Also thank you for sharing I will take a look at the other replies...

The question I asked the iching was which is the best way to approach my relationship with regards to making my decision as I was going to give a period of time to see if how I feel changes but I've felt this way for about 5 years. Thank you
 

Trojina

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I've put everything in the thread if you read down I've copied and pastes the whole thread - changing line number 4
You misunderstand. I know you copied and pasted the entire translation and I said you don't need to do that but you do need to write the cast clearly and say a little more about the situation itself, which you now have done.

The situation is Ive wanted to leave for a long time but scared due to having a son, being financially dependent on him and also the fact that he is just a lovely man. A good father and provider my reasons for wanting to leave are just that I no longer feel a romantic connection or compatibility.
I see. Yi aside I'd say you won't feel romantic connection, as in the first throes of love, to anyone you live with and share a life with because the romantic stuff is the beginning of the relationship, I think that's what it's for, to get things going. But familiarity, responsibility, chores and all that kind of thing naturally supercede the romantic stuff. That's not to say there can be no romance at all in a long term relationship but it can take a back seat and afterall it would be a bit weird if every time your partner entered the kitchen your heart started pounding and your mouth went dry :lol:



The question I asked the iching was which is the best way to approach my relationship with regards to making my decision as I was going to give a period of time to see if how I feel changes but I've felt this way for about 5 years. Thank you
I already answered you here

It appears it is indeed a good time to put your plans into action and to leave. You can see that, regrets vanish, there's confidence in making a change.

But I don't know if you are confident, or if you have anywhere to go or if it is at all responSsible for me to just tell you 'yes leave'. I know you aren't just going to go ahead and do what an online helper says here but still I have some reservations about being so definite when this could be a precarious situation. I mean the line is pretty definite clear and confident, there isn't the need for doubt here it looks like you could go ahead and make these changes with success. How do you feel about getting such a clear answer on this ? Do you have a clear plan to follow now or can you make one ?

So yes if it's time to make a complete change now is the time. I asked you the bolded question. You have had a clear answer so now you have to decide how to implement that which I guess initially mainly revolves around getting enough money to live independently.

Or you could apply the 49.4 to the current relationship I guess which I personally would imagine would be far preferable but that's just how it looks to me as an outsider. That is you stand to lose a great deal just for the sake of romance which is a flimsy thing that is here one minute gone the next and hasn't got a fat lot to do with actual love IMO. But I think as you want to leave, you want to make a radical change, and you cast the hexagram of Radical Change and a line that shows you ready to go then it would be time to start making plans as to how to live by yourself.
 
K

Kayleighcakes22

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You misunderstand. I know you copied and pasted the entire translation and I said you don't need to do that but you do need to write the cast clearly and say a little more about the situation itself, which you now have done.


I see. Yi aside I'd say you won't feel romantic connection, as in the first throes of love, to anyone you live with and share a life with because the romantic stuff is the beginning of the relationship, I think that's what it's for, to get things going. But familiarity, responsibility, chores and all that kind of thing naturally supercede the romantic stuff. That's not to say there can be no romance at all in a long term relationship but it can take a back seat and afterall it would be a bit weird if every time your partner entered the kitchen your heart started pounding and your mouth went dry :lol:




I already answered you here



So yes if it's time to make a complete change now is the time. I asked you the bolded question. You have had a clear answer so now you have to decide how to implement that which I guess initially mainly revolves around getting enough money to live independently.

Or you could apply the 49.4 to the current relationship I guess which I personally would imagine would be far preferable but that's just how it looks to me as an outsider. That is you stand to lose a great deal just for the sake of romance which is a flimsy thing that is here one minute gone the next and hasn't got a fat lot to do with actual love IMO. But I think as you want to leave, you want to make a radical change, and you cast the hexagram of Radical Change and a line that shows you ready to go then it would be time to start making plans as to how to live by yourself.
Thank you very much for your input.

Yes this is what has made it hard to leave. We have a son and I've never known if leaving because I'm bored and not satisfied is a good enough reason. He is a good husband and father but we haven't had sex in a very long time and are differ3nt people. I want tk experience a lot in life and he is happy to never leave the house again which means I am constantly in my masculine trying to keep us having a life of sorts. But its a tough decision to make
 
K

Kayleighcakes22

Guest
You misunderstand. I know you copied and pasted the entire translation and I said you don't need to do that but you do need to write the cast clearly and say a little more about the situation itself, which you now have done.


I see. Yi aside I'd say you won't feel romantic connection, as in the first throes of love, to anyone you live with and share a life with because the romantic stuff is the beginning of the relationship, I think that's what it's for, to get things going. But familiarity, responsibility, chores and all that kind of thing naturally supercede the romantic stuff. That's not to say there can be no romance at all in a long term relationship but it can take a back seat and afterall it would be a bit weird if every time your partner entered the kitchen your heart started pounding and your mouth went dry :lol:




I already answered you here



So yes if it's time to make a complete change now is the time. I asked you the bolded question. You have had a clear answer so now you have to decide how to implement that which I guess initially mainly revolves around getting enough money to live independently.

Or you could apply the 49.4 to the current relationship I guess which I personally would imagine would be far preferable but that's just how it looks to me as an outsider. That is you stand to lose a great deal just for the sake of romance which is a flimsy thing that is here one minute gone the next and hasn't got a fat lot to do with actual love IMO. But I think as you want to leave, you want to make a radical change, and you cast the hexagram of Radical Change and a line that shows you ready to go then it would be time to start making plans as to how to live by yourself.
May I ask for clarification on what applying the hexagram to the current relationship and not leaving would look like? As in how does the interpretation of the chart change in that case? Thank you
 

Trojina

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The question I asked the iching was which is the best way to approach my relationship with regards to making my decision as I was going to give a period of time to see if how I feel changes but I've felt this way for about 5 years. Thank you
Just putting the question there to keep it in mind, so it's the best way to approach making a decision as to whether to go or stay


'Regrets vanish, there is truth and confidence.
Changing mandate, good fortune.'
For sure change is good, change is happening in fact I wonder if the decision is almost being made for you in that things are already changing or on the brink of change with him?

May I ask for clarification on what applying the hexagram to the current relationship and not leaving would look like? As in how does the interpretation of the chart change in that case? Thank you
To answer that I need to go back to what you said here

The situation is Ive wanted to leave for a long time but scared due to having a son, being financially dependent on him and also the fact that he is just a lovely man. A good father and provider my reasons for wanting to leave are just that I no longer feel a romantic connection or compatibility.
May I ask if there is someone else in the picture? It's just often a third party stimulates the desire to leave what the person sees as the rather dull prospect at home. Anyway applying 49.4 to the current relationship would mean it, the marriage, has an overhaul, you change the way it's done, things change between you and so you become more engaged in making it work. He does sound like he has a lot going for him, you say he's a lovely man and a good father and these qualities aren't so easy to find out there in the world IMO.

There are other changes you could make to change the dynamic of the marriage without leaving it altogether maybe. Like you could find work so you have your own money and feel less dependent. Then maybe you could go out more by yourself if he wants to stay home.
Yes this is what has made it hard to leave. We have a son and I've never known if leaving because I'm bored and not satisfied is a good enough reason. He is a good husband and father but we haven't had sex in a very long time and are differ3nt people. I want tk experience a lot in life and he is happy to never leave the house again which means I am constantly in my masculine trying to keep us having a life of sorts. But its a tough decision to make
Thoughts that may not apply to your particular circumstances; if he is financially supporting you presumably he goes out to work so that could be the reason he wants to stay home? You say you are 'trying to keep us having a life of sorts' but if he is providing the money he also is trying keep you all having a life isn't he? If you rely on him for money not sure how that puts you 'in my masculine' since if you had to go out and earn money you'd be more 'in your masculine' wouldn't yo?. The lack of sex isn't unusual with a young child etc etc, it does happen a great deal you could see a marriage counsellor maybe. There are options open to radical change that don't mean leaving perhaps? Options to radically change the basis of the marriage as it is?

This is a very fortunate line it asks you to be positive and confident of your timing in moving forward in your approach to resolving this unhappiness. Something is changing and whether that is you leaving altogether or seeking to alter the fundamentals of the marriage I don't know. I do know financial dependence, (often unavoidable so no judgment there) is a real killer for relationships, it just seems to impact negatively even with the best of intentions.

Maybe you'd be better to start to to build up changes while you are still with him so if you want to leave later on you are in a better position to do so. You haven't said if he's happy for you to go or he really doesn't want you to go. I imagine he'd rather have the child living with him all the time rather than share which is what you will have to do if you leave. If you build your own base up to a stronger position where you are in less actual need of him perhaps at least then being more free to go you will know if you truly do want to go.
 
K

Kayleighcakes22

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Just putting the question there to keep it in mind, so it's the best way to approach making a decision as to whether to go or stay



For sure change is good, change is happening in fact I wonder if the decision is almost being made for you in that things are already changing or on the brink of change with him?


To answer that I need to go back to what you said here


May I ask if there is someone else in the picture? It's just often a third party stimulates the desire to leave what the person sees as the rather dull prospect at home. Anyway applying 49.4 to the current relationship would mean it, the marriage, has an overhaul, you change the way it's done, things change between you and so you become more engaged in making it work. He does sound like he has a lot going for him, you say he's a lovely man and a good father and these qualities aren't so easy to find out there in the world IMO.

There are other changes you could make to change the dynamic of the marriage without leaving it altogether maybe. Like you could find work so you have your own money and feel less dependent. Then maybe you could go out more by yourself if he wants to stay home.

Thoughts that may not apply to your particular circumstances; if he is financially supporting you presumably he goes out to work so that could be the reason he wants to stay home? You say you are 'trying to keep us having a life of sorts' but if he is providing the money he also is trying keep you all having a life isn't he? If you rely on him for money not sure how that puts you 'in my masculine' since if you had to go out and earn money you'd be more 'in your masculine' wouldn't yo?. The lack of sex isn't unusual with a young child etc etc, it does happen a great deal you could see a marriage counsellor maybe. There are options open to radical change that don't mean leaving perhaps? Options to radically change the basis of the marriage as it is?

This is a very fortunate line it asks you to be positive and confident of your timing in moving forward in your approach to resolving this unhappiness. Something is changing and whether that is you leaving altogether or seeking to alter the fundamentals of the marriage I don't know. I do know financial dependence, (often unavoidable so no judgment there) is a real killer for relationships, it just seems to impact negatively even with the best of intentions.

Maybe you'd be better to start to to build up changes while you are still with him so if you want to leave later on you are in a better position to do so. You haven't said if he's happy for you to go or he really doesn't want you to go. I imagine he'd rather have the child living with him all the time rather than share which is what you will have to do if you leave. If you build your own base up to a stronger position where you are in less actual need of him perhaps at least then being more free to go you will know if you truly do want to go.
I had an affair 6 years ago. Right after we got married. Before we had our son. I only told him about it a year ago. He took responsibility where it was due for it understanding why it happened but hasn't made any changes to improve our relationship.

I homeschooling my son which is why I'm not working but would easily be able to create something to be financially independent. Him being the sole earner has never been an issue for us, it was a conscious choice when I fell pregnant for me to quit my job.

Yes leaving will push me further into my masculine however the main thing I feel in my masculine about is being the one to think through all family decisions.

I will take some time to think it over as I cannot imagine an overhaul in the relationship without us both making huge changes that I have lost trust over being possible.
 

Trojina

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I had an affair 6 years ago. Right after we got married. Before we had our son. I only told him about it a year ago. He took responsibility where it was due for it understanding why it happened but hasn't made any changes to improve our relationship.
That must have been pretty devastating for him. Kayleigh it's really hard to be on your side I'll be honest, not that it's case of sides I know but at this point I give up. I'm no marriage counsellor but if you get married it means something doesn't it otherwise what is the point? I can't see how he is responsible for you having an affair just after you married. Of course I don't know anything about it but you've lied to him for 6 years..... :???: I mean surely this confession has significantly damaged any trust there ever was.

I give up.
 
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Kayleighcakes22

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That must have been pretty devastating for him. Kayleigh it's really hard to be on your side I'll be honest, not that it's case of sides I know but at this point I give up. I'm no marriage counsellor but if you get married it means something doesn't it otherwise what is the point? I can't see how he is responsible for you having an affair just after you married. Of course I don't know anything about it but you've lied to him for 6 years..... :???: I mean surely this confession has significantly damaged any trust there ever was.

I give up.
You are right you don't know anything about it, but you asked about third parties and I was honest. But yes, if you are not able to be impartial and keep your comments strictly to the Iching in question instead of your judgements then yes its best to give up.
 
H

Hans_K

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I had an affair 6 years ago. Right after we got married. Before we had our son. I only told him about it a year ago. He took responsibility where it was due for it understanding why it happened but hasn't made any changes to improve our relationship.
I think this is important information that puts H49.4 <>H63 in a total new perspective.
The top trigram Lake changes to Water due to the moving line at the 4th position. Wind out of balance is about delusion and losing touch with the here-and-now.It wants to take charge when it should be following. Taking action now would have disastrous consequences because one does not oversee the consequences. The change to Water shows that one has to go with the flow of events and accept the situation as it is.
As I see it, H49 is not about an outer revolution but an inner one.
H63 is about balance. The Image text says: "Thus the superior person Contemplates difficulties And guards against them in advance."
So it is about an inner change to bring back balance.
Personally, I don't think the Yi is saying you should leave your husband.

This would be my interpretation.Take what resonates and leave the rest 😉
 
K

Kayleighcakes22

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I think this is important information that puts H49.4 <>H63 in a total new perspective.
The top trigram Lake changes to Water due to the moving line at the 4th position. Wind out of balance is about delusion and losing touch with the here-and-now.It wants to take charge when it should be following. Taking action now would have disastrous consequences because one does not oversee the consequences. The change to Water shows that one has to go with the flow of events and accept the situation as it is.
As I see it, H49 is not about an outer revolution but an inner one.
H63 is about balance. The Image text says: "Thus the superior person Contemplates difficulties And guards against them in advance."
So it is about an inner change to bring back balance.
Personally, I don't think the Yi is saying you should leave your husband.

This would be my interpretation.Take what resonates and leave the rest 😉
Thank you, if you have any further comments to make re the inner resolution I would love to hear them if you are open to sharing. It sounds like this is more about me needing to follow his leadership
 
H

Hans_K

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It sounds like this is more about me needing to follow his leadership
No this is not about following someone, but following the situation. E.g. what does the situation between the two of you need.
H49 is about shedding the old so that the new becomes visible. What needs to be shed in your situation so that the new can emerge?

What is remarkable is that in both H49 and H63, the trigram Fire remains unchanged. Fire represents passion and relationships. So in this way, the answer also seems to indirectly say that the basis for moving forward with each other is still there.
if you have any further comments to make re the inner resolution
The inner revolution is about the emotions (Water) of both of you (Lake). There must be an exchange of the true emotions, they must be allowed to flow again (Water).
This starts with opening up the current situation (Lake) and acknowledging together that something is not right about the current situation (Fire- making things clear).

The most "simple" revolution would be to make the choice to regain balance in your relationship. The text of the 4th line says "Regrets vanish.There is confidence.Changing the order of government brings good fortune."

As always take what resonates and leave the rest 😉
 
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K

Kayleighcakes22

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No this is not about following someone, but following the situation. E.g. what does the situation between the two of you need.
H49 is about shedding the old so that the new becomes visible. What needs to be shed in your situation so that the new can emerge?

What is remarkable is that in both H49 and H63, the trigram Fire remains unchanged. Fire represents passion and relationships. So in this way, the answer also seems to indirectly say that the basis for moving forward with each other is still there.

The inner revolution is about the emotions (Water) of both of you (Lake). There must be an exchange of the true emotions, they must be allowed to flow again (Water).
This starts with opening up the current situation (Lake) and acknowledging together that something is not right about the current situation (Fire- making things clear).

The most "simple" revolution would be to make the choice to regain balance in your relationship. The text of the 4th line says "Regrets vanish.There is confidence.Changing the order of government brings good fortune."

As always take what resonates and leave the rest 😉
Thank you
 

marybluesky

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Hello Kayleigh,

First of all if something is off in your marriage you should seek professional help. Your needs aren't met and this should be recognized.

That said, 49.4 is about changing a mandate, and it is hexagram 49: seasonal change. More often than not it doesn't come immediately and needs time to evolve and conclude. I can't say for sure in what direction you should change your mind and what you should end (63). However I can suggest starting a process that paves the way for decision making,
 

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Hello Kayleigh,

First of all if something is off in your marriage you should seek professional help. Your needs aren't met and this should be recognized.

That said, 49.4 is about changing a mandate, and it is hexagram 49: seasonal change. More often than not it doesn't come immediately and needs time to evolve and conclude. I can't say for sure in what direction you should change your mind and what you should end (63). However I can suggest starting a process that paves the way for decision making,
Thank you, we had a chat yesterday and my husband is looking into courses to help our intimacy so will see how we get on
 

Liselle

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Hans makes a good point:
The Image text says: "Thus the superior person Contemplates difficulties And guards against them in advance."
Also, the Oracle says something similar (the part in bold):
'Already across, creating success.
Constancy yields a small harvest.
Beginnings, good fortune,
Endings, chaos
.

63 can and often does very well mean something that's already decided, but of course it's not impossible to set out in confidence and then still things go wrong. It's always a good idea in 63 to try to anticipate what might go wrong, and then try to "[guard] against them in advance," as Hans quoted.

In your case it's not hard to think of what might go wrong, as redacted fully explained. Your family would be broken up which has many consequences.

Your moving line is tricky, because as everyone's been discussing, what mandate is it referring to? Leave, or try to radically change/fix your marriage?

One way to try to straighten that out could be paying very close attention to your question.
The question I asked the iching was which is the best way to approach my relationship with regards to making my decision
If I understand that, you asked about your relationship and not about leaving. You did not, for instance, ask, "What if I leave?"

Try saying the moving line out loud to yourself so it sounds like an answer. This is one of Hilary's key pieces of advice.

Question: "What is the best way to approach my relationship with regards to making my decision?"

Answer: "The best way to approach your relationship is for regrets about your relationship to vanish, for you to approach your relationship with truth and confidence
[sincerity might be another word to use there], and for you to approach your relationship with a changed mandate that will lead to good fortune."

Or something like that. I feel weird trying to speak for Yi and paraphrase, a.k.a. put words in Yi's mouth, because who am I to do that when it's your reading. It's just an example - the point is, you should play with your question and answer as a question and answer. Don't lose sight of what you asked.
 
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Hans_K

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Do you use 2 different screennames? Are Kayleighcakes22 and Toodles34 one and the same person?
 

hilary

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Do you use 2 different screennames? Are Kayleighcakes22 and Toodles34 one and the same person?
Thanks for mentioning this, Hans. We do have a 'one username per person' rule here, to avoid confusion, so I've contacted Kayleigh to ask her to choose one.
 

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