Translating Characters

[answeredquestions]

I am getting all of my "translations" of the Chinese characters from http://www.biroco.com/yijing/index.htm in the Zhouyi section, and then I copy and paste them to Wiktionary http://www.wiktionary.org/ for a breakdown.

Anyone have any good sites that could help with the breakdown of each character?

Take care and thanks in advance,
AQ

 

[pocossin]

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=車&submitButton1=Etymology

and Bradford. When I have a problem with a line, I use Marshall's 1935 Harvard-Yenching Zhouyi

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/zhouyi.htm

to get the characters and then go to Chinese Etymology and Bradford's books.

 

[answeredquestions]

Ok, so we use the same source to getting the Zhouyi...
Thanks Tom.
I wonder if there are any other pages with the complete Zhouyi in Chinese characters, but this is just for curiousity's sake. I suppose it is not needed.

And thank you for the Chinese Etymology site link as well.

 

[answeredquestions]

For something like the character 柅 and how Wiktionary associates this character to "flourishing"
(http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%9F%85), is that an assumption on Wiktionary's part? Richard Sear's website does not pull any associated words up for this character (柅).

Again, always appreciate any and all help..
(Now that I look at Sear's site, I remember Charly sourcing it)

 

[hmesker]

For something like the character 柅 and how Wiktionary associates this character to "flourishing"
(http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/柅), is that an assumption on Wiktionary's part?

No, it's not an assumption, but it does show how easily you can be lead astray by these modern dictionaries. 柅 as a stand-alone character does not mean 'flourishing', but doubled 柅柅 it does. Used like this it is a loan for 泥泥, which is found in two poems of the Shijing (http://ctext.org/book-of-poetry?searchu=泥泥).

It is best not to rely on these modern dictionaries when you try to translate an old text like the Yi. They will often confuse you and you will not get a true understanding of the text if you don't use more reliable sources as well.

 

[rodaki]

At http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=Yijing, hover over each character to get a simple definition, clicking on them will take you to Zhendic.
I also use yellowbridge.com

 

[charly]

Hi, All:

Another modern dictionary, but also with Old Chinese meanings, is the on-line version of Lyn Yutang:

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/

Can switch from chinese to english, search by pinyin, etc. It has only a problem, we must select again and again the correct «View / Character Codification» which is TRADITIONAL CHINESE (BIG5).

Wieger's Chinese Characters is available in a Viet Library in pdf:
www.biblio.nhat-nam.ru/Wieger.pdf

Maybe can get Schessler ABC at:
http://ebookee.org/go/?u=http://depositfiles.com/files/fyq2za4re

In Archive org there are many dictionaries that can be useful. There is also 1922 Wilder's Analysis of Chinese Characters:
http://ia700407.us.archive.org/4/items/cu31924023476546/cu31924023476546.pdf

And, of course, for old meanings read the Harmen Mesker's page and Rutt's Notes on translation.

All the best,


Charly

 

[answeredquestions]

Thank you everyone

 

[charly]

For something like the character 柅 and how Wiktionary associates this character to "flourishing"
(http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%9F%85), is that an assumption on Wiktionary's part? Richard Sear's website does not pull any associated words up for this character (柅).

Again, always appreciate any and all help..
(Now that I look at Sear's site, I remember Charly sourcing it)

Hi, Courtney:

I did know only two meanings for this character:

1) a wooden CHOCK or BRAKE, usually read as belonging to a carriage, but how can a wooden device be made of metal, bronze or gold?
2) a frutal tree with hard wood, I believe like a pear tree, but no sure. Maybe a strong but flexible tree bearing fruits [a phallic symbol?] (3)

柅 ni is, I belive, of no very frequent use and maybe a little modern.
Whithout the tree radical, we have another ni, 尼, known for being used in the transliteration of the three-syllabe sancrit word meaning «Buddhist Nun».

About this character Lawrence Howell said (1):

尼 ... ニ あま
尸 body + an abbreviated form ... of 比 (line up people) → close contact among members of a group of similar people ...

http://www.kanjinetworks.com/eng/kanji-dictionary/online-kanji-etymology-dictionary.cfm

I believe that this was the seal character used in the Zhouyi, without tree, meaning something less material that a chock or a brake: a RULE, the GOLDEN RULE that ties the members to a brotherhood.

If we FOLLOW that GOLDEN RULE, we are LUCKY.

Of course, a GOLDEN RULE means some sort of LIMIT, a CONTROL DEVICE, like a metal mouthpiece of a horse, a BIT.

Maybe TIED TO A BRONZE BIT, LIKE A HORSE?

Probably the Chinese had learned to ride horses as early as anyone. We know that they were riding during Shang, say 1500 BC, and maybe earlier. Well, horses need equipment, and metal is very convenient for some of it ...

CHINA, ZHOU-HAN?, c. 1000 BC - 100 AD, bronze horse bit, 122x23x8mm, rod with holes at ends, original was 2 or 3 pieces, this is only one, nicely formed...

Source:
http://www.anythinganywhere.com/commerce/relic/chin-horse.htm
Here can see a piece of a bronze bit, 3.000 years old

Are you wondering why the Zhoyi used the abbreviated form of BI in the compund character instead of the full form?

Maybe for with the full form it is 屁 pì meaning ... FART!
Not only this,比 bi is used to mean PUSSY, but that´s another story. (2)

Soon: THE CASE OF THE LEAN SWINE.

All the best,


Charly

_______________________________
(1) Can get access to KANJINETWORKS by free registering, also can suscribe e-mail resumes on characters.
(2) Maybe Harmen can tell us how old are some meanings.
(3) Wieger said «BOIS DUR», HARD WOOD.

Ch.

 

[answeredquestions]

Probably the Chinese had learned to ride horses as early as anyone. We know that they were riding during Shang, say 1500 BC, and maybe earlier. Well, horses need equipment, and metal is very convenient for some of it ...

CHINA, ZHOU-HAN?, c. 1000 BC - 100 AD, bronze horse bit, 122x23x8mm, rod with holes at ends, original was 2 or 3 pieces, this is only one, nicely formed...

Source:
http://www.anythinganywhere.com/comm...chin-horse.htm
Here can see a piece of a bronze bit, 3.000 years old

very nice find Charly!

 

[charly]

Ok, so we use the same source to getting the Zhouyi...
Thanks Tom.
I wonder if there are any other pages with the complete Zhouyi in Chinese characters, but this is just for curiousity's sake. I suppose it is not needed.

And thank you for the Chinese Etymology site link as well.

Of course, there are.

I should recommend you Donald Sturgeon´s Chinese Text Project.

http://ctext.org/book-of-changes?searchu=柅

It has many texts, not only the Changes. The text of the Changes is syncronized with Legge. It has a dictionary and can search a text or a character in another texts, like the Book of Poetry (Odes), which is always a good idea.

Yours,

Charly

 

[bradford]

My Volume two has maybe the most comprehensive glossary/dictionary out there for words used five or more times in the Yi. It also has the full Chinese text.

 

[charly]

Of course, Hermetica is a mine!

Charly :bows:

 

[answeredquestions]

I appreciate this information very much everyone! These site links are just what I am looking for, as well as the book recommendations.

 

[bradford]

Silly me-
I forgot to mention the newest resource. Towards the end there's a section called "Bilingual Resources, C-E dictionaries." Many of the entries have links to online tools:
http://www.hermetica.info/YixueBib.htm
Harmen is correct- you have to watch out for strictly modern usages.
As to the Marshall/Biroco Zhouyi text, it is the most reliable one out there.
It doesn't have any of the Ten Wings, though.
Mine is in Big 5, not Unicode, so it's a bit dated, and I had to use more modern substitutes for a handful of characters that weren't in the Big 5 character set.

 

[answeredquestions]

Bradford (and the other contributors), your organization and meticulousness I am greatful for.

 

[hmesker]

柅 ni is, I belive, of no very frequent use and maybe a little modern.

I wouldn't say that as it is also found in the Shanghai MS, meaning it was already in use around 300BC.

There is another meaning of 柅 that most Yi explorers are not familiar with. The Shuowen 說文 says at the explanation of the character ni 檷: "絡絲檷. (...) 讀若昵.", "weaving utensil. Read as 昵". Duan Yucai adds that 昵 is normally written as 柅, and this is the character that most SW editions give. 檷 is another character for 柅, and it is a name for some sort of spinning wheel or tool (漢語大字典, Vol. 2, p. 1307). In the edition with Duan Yucai's commentary line one of hexagram 44 is quoted as '繫于金檷', which might imply that there were Yi editions which used 檷 instead of 柅. Which version this would be is not known, the 周易逐字索引 concordance gives as variant characters from other Yi editions 抳, 鑈, 尼 and 梯 (Mawangdui). Possibly 鑈 is a loan for 檷.

Kong Yingda 孔穎達 also noted that the meaning of 柅 in the Yi is not completely decided. In his Zhouyi Zhengyi he writes,"柅之為物, 眾說不同. 王肅之徒皆為織績之器, 婦人所用.", "Ni 柅 as object, there are different opinions (about this). Wang Su follows (the idea that) it is a weaving machine, used by married women."

Gao Heng 高亨 also follows the reading of 柅 as some sort of weaving device, and he reads the first part of line one as 'tied to a metal spinning wheel' (周易古經今注, p. 285).

The Shuowen-with-commentary quotes the 九家易 by Xun Shuang 荀爽:"絲繫於柅, 猶女繫於男, 故以喻初宜繫二也", "A thread tied to a spinning wheel, this is as a woman tied to a man, therefore this anology is used for the first (line) being tied to the second (line)".

Since the Yi speaks of ji 繫, 'tie' (with a rope or something similar) I'm inclined to prefer a meaning of 柅 which has some connection with this. 'Being tied to a metal spinning wheel' provokes the image of a woman who is married to a wealthy man but nevertheless has to fulfil her traditional duties in the household.

 

[hmesker]

P.S. I see that Stephen Karcher in Total I Ching and Margaret Pearson in The Original I Ching use the meaning of 'spindle' too. Glad to see I'm in good company

 

[bradford]

Chariots and carriages had brakes back then.
Just as necessary as they are now.
I suspect these had a name, like 柅.

 

[answeredquestions]

All such wonderful resources floating around on here..

柅 and the bit for a horse still makes a lot of sense to me (but sometimes the answer is either out of reach or doesn't make sense). Just for discussion, not that I have looked into these characters extensively, the bit would be 'tied' from the bit to the clutches of the driver's hands or the carriage. Also the animal, a pig I think, is there any way this animal could be the one with a bit in it's mouth, tied to the carriage, and in need of being 'stopped'. Do pigs rear and buck like a horse? Did they ever use pigs or boars to carry a carriage instead of a horse or ox?

 

[answeredquestions]

Here, like this: http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/horse/?section=domesticating&page=domesticating_d

 

[pocossin]

Chariots and carriages had brakes back then.

I have been unable to find any mention of a Chinese chariot brake, and doubt that chariots had them. The chariot could have been stopped by reining in the horses.

 

[answeredquestions]

I guess that was what I was trying to say, that the carriage's brakes could be the reins with a bit on the end... and that possibly the animal pulling the carriage could have been a pig. I do not know if there where other physical structures other than reins that would be considered brakes back then. Maybe something metal that pushed up against the carriage wheels? Like modern brakes?

 

[charly]

I have been unable to find any mention of a Chinese chariot brake, and doubt that chariots had them. The chariot could have been stopped by reining in the horses.

Hi, Tom:

Sure there were wooden chocs for stationing. Bronze chocks I believe could have been de luxe chocs for VIPs.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

I guess that was what I was trying to say, that the carriage's brakes could be the reins with a bit on the end... and that possibly the animal pulling the carriage could have been a pig ...

Hi, Courtney:

If there were pigs, I believe that they were riding the carriages. Say, the LEAN PIGS are but HUMAN BEINGS, nobles or commoners, always needing more than they have.

Of course, I saw, in the link you posted, that «the goddess of the dawn, travels in a pig-drawn carriage» which means that women like pigs. Then the equation PIGS = MEN is reasonable.

Yours,

Charly

 

[answeredquestions]

Maybe she travelled in a litter carried by slave men..

 

[pocossin]

Sure there were wooden chocs for stationing. Bronze chocks I believe could have been de luxe chocs for VIPs.

Charly, is there any archeological evidence for chariot chocks?

 

[charly]

I wouldn't say that as it is also found in the Shanghai MS, meaning it was already in use around 300BC.

Hi, Harmen:

I was wrong, but 300 BC is not so ancient.

... Gao Heng 高亨 also follows the reading of 柅 as some sort of weaving device, and he reads the first part of line one as 'tied to a metal spinning wheel' ...

I have read that Zhous and Hans had SPINNING WHEELS, but I always believed that were made mainly of wood, bamboo, leather and the like. Did they have bronze or metal spinning wheels? As long as I remember, only spindle whorls were made of stone, pottery or another hard materials. Did Zhous have metal spindles? Or maybe some polished stones looked like bronze?

The textile machine in China originates from the spindle wheel in the Neolithic Age (xīn shí qì shí dài 新石器时代). In the Western Zhou (xī hàn 西汉) Dynasty there came into being the spinning wheel (fǎng chē 纺车)

Source:
http://english.xm.gov.cn/study/LearningChinese/201101/t20110107_390610.html

I´m thinking that the wooden axis of the spindle is a male symbol and the weighty whorl a female symbol, the whole spindle depicts SEXUAL CONJUNCTION.

SOURCE: http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/ClermontMuseumGlass.html

TIED TO A SPINDLE-WHORL speaks of somebody fond of women. Tied to a GOLDEN spindle-whorl means, maybe, married with a LADY.

Might you tell me what happens with the LEAN PIG? The lean pig, the skinny axis of the spinde... Maybe the HUSBAND is a SWINE.

Do you trust in EMACIATED PIGS being sacrificed to ancestors? Animals for sacrifice must be without defect, isn´t it?


All the best,


Charly

 

[charly]

Charly, is there any archeological evidence for chariot chocks?

Hi, Tom:

Maybe, yes. Although it looks a little obscene.

Terminal chock from a chariot 5th-4th century B.C.E.
Eastern Zhou dynasty Warring States period
Bronze with gold and silver inlay.

Source: http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/singleObject.cfm?ObjectNumber=F1932.15a-b

Yours,

Charly

 

[bradford]

I think our modern equivalent of 44.1 is "hold your horses"

This is a translation of a Western Zhou bronze. I don't have the text.
Brakes or chocks are also used on wagon wheels in the Zhoui at both 63 & 64.

King Xuan (827-782)
“I present you with a flask of black millet wine, a libation ladle with a jade handle, a red apron with a green sash, a circlet of jade, and a jade tablet; a chariot with bronze fittings, patterned silk covered carriage sides, vermillion leaning board and harness straps, a tiger skin canopy with dark lining, yoke bar bindings and axle couplings of painted leather, a bronze fitted shaft with painted belts, bronze brake fittings bound with leather and painted with gilt, a bronze adorned bow sheath and a fish-skin quiver, a team of four horses with bronze bridles and gilt girth straps, and a scarlet banner hung with two bells. I present you with these gifts that you may sacrifice and carry out your administrative duties.”