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larsbo_c

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This is the translations we know to exist (the titles given by members below are added total 89) maybe still more out there? And probably many from Ancient Chinese to modern Chinese. If you have some titles on your shelf that are not included please list them here.

Da Liu.
Richard Wilhelm.
John Blofeld.
Richard Alan Kunst.
Stephen Karcher.
Gia-Fu Feng and Jerome Kirk.
Mawangdui edition by Edward L. Shaugnessy.
James Legge.
Richard John Lynn/Wang Bi.
Kesong Huang.
R.L. Wing.
Roy Collins.
Carol K. Anthony and Hanna Moog.
Tom Riseman.
Gregory Whincup.
Elisabeth Moran and Joseph Yu.
Canon McClatchie.
Neil Powell.
Brandon Toropov(only hexagrams are explained).
Lise Heyboer.
Bradford Hatcher.
Alistair Crowley
Alfred Huang.
Gregory C. Richter
Jou Tsung Hwa
Thomas Cleary
Thomas Christensen
Alfred Douglas. A translation???
Han-yu Shen and Albert S. Lyons.
Henry Wei
Asa Bonnershaw.
John Bright-Fey.
Freeman Crouch.
Brian Browne Walker
Mark McElroy
Wu Wei
R.L. Wing
Rudolf Ritsema and Shantena Augusto Sabbadini
Sarah Dening
Hua-Ching Ni
Sam Reifler
jane schorre (only hexagrams are explained).
Ming-dao Deng
Amy M. Sorrell
Michael Drake
Cheung Kwong Yin
Joseph Murphy
Richard Craze
Mondo Secter and Chung-Ying Cheng
Wu Jing Nuan
Richard Rutt
Frank R. Kegan
Fu Huisheng
Tien Cong Tran
Raymond Van Over
Nizan Weisman
Martin Palmer, Kwok Man Ho and Joanne O'Brien
Louis T. Culling
Liu Dajun, Lin Zhongjun, Fu Youde
Lauren David Peden
Kim-Anh Lim
Jung Young Lee
Julie Tallard Johnson
Judy Fox, Karen Hughes and John Tampion
Nigel Richmond
Jean-Michel Houn de Kermadec
Jack M. Balkin
J. H. Brennan
Henry Wei
Guy Damian-Knight
Frits Blok
Edward Albertson
Edgar Cayce
Chin Lee and Kay Wong
Angelika Hoefler
Michael Colmer
Miki Shima
Mondo Secter
Mondo Secter
Myles Seabrook


Non-English:
Ricardo Andreé
Judica Cordiglia
Jordi Vilá and Albert Galvany
Ariel Miranda Viera
Arturo González Cosio
Lacouperie
Philastre
De Harlez

Old to Modern Chinese:
Tienzen (Jeh-Tween) Gong
 
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Sparhawk

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Grossly outdated list of titles in my bookshelves but as of last October I had 121 translations and/or interpretations of the Yijing, here: http://yitoons.com/library.html

I must add quite a few books to it (whenever I find the time... :D)

BTW, don't forget to add Gia-fu Feng and Frank R. Kegan.
 

hilary

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Wu Jing Nuan
Deng Ming Dao
Hua Ching Ni
Richard Rutt

(WJN and Rutt both include the whole Yijing with all its Wings, which is a rarity.)
 

charly

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Among the translations made by chinesemen:

A new translation and new interpretation of Yijing
© 1997 Dr. Tienzen (Jeh-Tween) Gong
at: http://www.chinese-word-roots.org/yijing.htm

What happened with the french and spanish?
Lacouperie, Philastre and De Harlez are available in the web, also Regis (latin).

Ch.
 

Sparhawk

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You're still missing a few that are listed here:

http://www.hermetica.info/E-YiBib.htm

Glad you put your link there. Actually, many of book titles I have is because I've seen them in your bibliography. Also, Harmen Mesker as an extensive list in his site.

Speaking of bibliographies, anyone with a good interest in Western materials on the Yijing, should get Ed Hacker/Lorraine Patsco book. A little outdated, as you can imagine, but worthy: I Ching, an annotated bibliography
 

larsbo_c

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List of translations

This is a list of translations reported by members
total 113
Maybe still more out there?
Please send lists with reviews

Da Liu
Richard Wilhelm
John Blofeld
Richard Alan Kunst
Stephen Karcher
Gia-Fu Feng and Jerome Kirk
Edward L Shaugnessy (Mawangdui edition)
James Legge
Richard John Lynn/Wang Bi
Kesong Huang
RL Wing
Roy Collins
Carol K Anthony and Hanna Moog
Tom Riseman
Gregory Whincup
Elisabeth Moran and Joseph Yu
Canon McClatchie
Neil Powell
Lise Heyboer
Bradford Hatcher
Alistair Crowley
Alfred Huang
Gregory C Richter
Jou Tsung Hwa
Thomas Cleary
Thomas Christensen
Alfred Douglas
Diane Stein
Han-yu Shen and Albert S Lyons
Henry Wei
Asa Bonnershaw
John Bright-Fey
Freeman Crouch
Brian Browne Walker
Mark McElroy
Wu Wei
RL Wing
Rudolf Ritsema & Shantena Augusto Sabbadini
Sarah Dening
Hua-Ching Ni
Sam Reifler
Ming-dao Deng
Amy M Sorrell
Michael Drake
Cheung Kwong Yin
Joseph Murphy
Richard Craze
Mondo Secter and Chung-Ying Cheng
Wu Jing Nuan
Richard Rutt
Frank R Kegan
Paul Sneddon
Fu Huisheng
Tien Cong Tran
Raymond Van Over
Nizan Weisman
Martin Palmer, Kwok Man Ho and Joanne O'Brien
Louis T Culling
Liu Dajun, Lin Zhongjun, Fu Youde
Lauren David Peden
Kim-Anh Lim
Jung Young Lee
Julie Tallard Johnson
Judy Fox, Karen Hughes and John Tampion
Nigel Richmond
Jean-Michel Houn de Kermadec
Jack M Balkin
J H Brennan
Henry Wei
Guy Damian-Knight
Frits Blok
Edward Albertson
Edgar Cayce
Chin Lee and Kay Wong
Angelika Hoefler
Michael Colmer
Miki Shima
Mondo Secter
Mondo Secter
Myles Seabrook
Edward Albertson
Arcarti, Kristyna
Chan Chiu Ming
Edward Hacker
Sam Reifler
Nigel Richmond
Larry Schoenholtz
Henry Wey
Wei Tat
Mary Clark,
Frank J MacHovec
Lauren David Peden
Ken Spaulding and Lois Richards
Marysol Gonzalez Sterling
C F Russell
Tan Xiaochun
Asa Bonnershaw [is it a translation???]
Khigh Alx Dhiegh [is it a translation???]
Richard Gill [is it a translation???]
Franklin Hum Yun [is it a translation???]
Wu Yi [is it a translation???]
Khigh Alx Dhiegh [is it a translation???]


Non-English:
Ricardo Andreé
Judica Cordiglia
Jordi Vilá and Albert Galvany
Ariel Miranda Viera
Arturo González Cosio
Britto, Ely
Valter Curzi
Wu Jyh Cherng
Yu, Titus

In Chinese:
Li Guangdi, et al, ed’s (Yuzuan) Zhouyi Zhezhong
Translations without the lines are not included

Reviews:
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/survey.htm
 

proserpine

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did you add Aleister Crowley's on there.It's in verse and is not bad at all.
To be sure some 9like Crowley's) are not translations but interpretations
 

fkegan

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Hi larsbo_c,

There is always something unsatisfying about bald lists of work, though there are several cultures that just absolutely can't resist the exercise. How would you proceed from this listing? I Ching: An Annotated Bibliography was an attempt to both compile a total list at its time and to make comments about each of them.

Those who work with the Tarot have an exercise where they are obliged to make their own Tarot deck or at least color it themselves. Each person working with the Yi is compiling their own dictionary or translation or commentary whether they get around to actually putting on paper comments about each hexagram or line of text.

My own work has been to find the way to use the simplest set of principles to explain the meanings of the hexagrams from the sequence and line line structures. I do not see that as an alternative to the various translations of the Imperial Edition such as Wilhelm, but rather a set of illustrations to give context to illuminate and delineate any and all work with the I Ching. What isn't ultimately inherent to the King Wen Sequence with its hexagram patterns is personal work of the authors and their associations and connections to the Yi and the community of Yi exploration.

How do those who are not themselves steeped in the Yi and its Oracle do with this list? How would one figure out what would be useful for one's one exploration and even more importantly----Why?

Nice to see the list though.

Frank R. Kegan
 

hilary

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I recognise some of those on the list as not original translations - that is, the author's started with English versions (Wilhelm/Baynes, about 99% of the time) and based theirs on that. That would include Tom Riseman, Carol Anthony, and those with no translation in there at all - RL Wing, Sarah Dening, and isn't Joseph Murphy another? - and probably a bunch of others I don't have.

I wonder how many original translations there are? At a guess, it'd be a shorter list.
 

fkegan

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Hi Hilary,

What makes an original translation rank as original? Gia-Fu started with the Chinese Text and his own memory of his childhood Taoist training but the manuscript was rejected by Random House as being too similar to Wilhelm. The differences are quite subtle mostly and small in percentage terms of the word count; though Primal Bliss Fruitful to have Zest isn't at all like Supreme Success Perseverance Furthers.

Those who don't read ancient Chinese may or may not still be making an original translation of the hexagrams and their experience with them from their divination.

And those who do read Chinese require careful philological grounding to avoid confusing what they automatically understand or read in their various dictionaries; and what was the meaning over the last three millennia of that particular ideogram in that context.

Put another way, it is about how long would the list be if limited to those thought to be worthwhile and of course that is totally subjective...

Frank
 

hilary

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Yes, that would certainly be a good - and subjective - list-shortening method. But I just meant 'translation' literally - translating into English from the original Chinese - like Legge, Rutt, Wilhelm, Lynn, Wu Jing Nuan... . Doesn't mean that other books are not useful, or not making original contributions, only that they're not translations. (Hope it doesn't, anyway, as I can hardly call myself a translator.)
 

fkegan

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Yes, that would certainly be a good - and subjective - list-shortening method. But I just meant 'translation' literally - translating into English from the original Chinese - like Legge, Rutt, Wilhelm, Lynn, Wu Jing Nuan... . Doesn't mean that other books are not useful, or not making original contributions, only that they're not translations. (Hope it doesn't, anyway, as I can hardly call myself a translator.)

Hi Hilary,

The ancient Greeks called translators Traitors since the meaning can change so much from the original through the bias and assumptions of the translators. That an author begins reading the original text is hardly an objectively valid means to judge the quality or usefulness of the result. It is pure cultural prejudice to value words more over the less tangible notion of concepts. Words are never as concrete as some would hope.

Words are slippery things and especially in Chinese where the dictionary entries for each ideogram mushroom and set off sparklers of possible tangents and dead ends. Charly gives great examples of that in his translation exercises.

There is also the Great Divide between Chinese and Western attitudes towards concepts and relationships. Chinese is a language and culture based upon relationships. Western languages are based upon hierarchies of independent entities with 'relationship'
being another independent entity.

There are sentences such as "Yang and Yin are like Day and Night" that have totally different philosophical implications in English and Chinese though everyone can nod their heads in agreement that the sentence has clear meaning to them. In Chinese Day and Night are clearly both part of the dynamics of the motion of the Sun and rhythms of daily life as a single continuous process. There will always be day and night with a regular process of increasing and then decreasing light and public social activity.

In English, Day is associated with positive and goodness and clarity while Night is connected to evil and sinister and dangerous first and then it is a separate technical detail that day and night occur together each 24 hours due to the celestial dynamics of orbits and rotation. This can be seen in practical reality by the importance of artificial lighting in modern life so that all 24 hours/day can be all lit up and not dark--the day as 24 hour time period has been saved from the old lapses into darkness. A proper technological city is all the same environment at any hour, it is only individuals and social groups who might choose to change their activities to sleep or get away from work at certain hours.

Far more important than whether a set of ancient Chinese text strings and dictionaries were used as authority are the questions of which I Ching books deal with the some aspect of the inherent reality of the Yi and which like Legge are just strings of English words associated with some portion of the range of Chinese ideograms with as little contact with any Chinese culture or concepts as possible.

Frank
 

bradford

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So, like, do your own thing, man
Translation's too hard!
 

fkegan

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Do! Your thing is about expressing your Atman = Braham ...

So, like, do your own thing, man
Translation's too hard!

Brad, brad brad... You got your sources all wrong and twisted.

Translation is the first step, part of early stages of learning and then you have to spread your wings and fly with the dragons. Working with Gia-fu (Feng) on a Taoist Translation of the I Ching was an essential preparatory step to my later work. Translation from published dictionaries and texts is just too easy a cop-out avoiding real insight and creativity. It ends up being mostly just projecting your own beliefs and limitations upon the revered text, trying to wrap your limitations in a fancy outer wrapper like a cheap cigar. This is why the ancient Greeks called translators: traitors, they betrayed the actual meaning of the text.

As to The Great Imperative of my generation, you got it all anachronistically wrong. Your sense of it meaning doing whatever you alone approve of is only silly nonsense of those who were frightened by long hairstyles on boys. It was a revolutionary slogan of personal courage and self-expression steeped in deep study and brutal experience. Hosiah William of SCLC put it as: You can't control when you will die, but you can decide which ditch you will make your last stand by the flag of your choosing. We listened to that and chose the 'freak-flag' of our uncut hair in the most hallowed halls of traditional academia.

And in my case, still graduating in 4 years with my degree as I alone demanded: with honors in Chemistry and Other Religions. Walking barefoot in the Engineering sciences building with hippie beads doing research in ancient cere perdu bronze casting, etc.
Giving a very well received colloquium to the University too. You have no idea what it is to choose the hard road in academia.

What we were saying was actually !DO! Your thing. That is accept what it is that is unique to you as an individual and instead of staying in the closet or putting on a gray-flannel suit or obeying parental expectations come out into the sunshine in your own native costume and live out or Do! that thing which is divinely and uniquely YOU!

That is another example of getting your scholarship all screwed up following official academic sources without personal experience or original understanding.

If you find translation work hard rather than joyous, you are doing it Wrong. Creative endeavors in any and all fields share the magic and the joy of their creativity. The work details are just puzzles to solve and burdens to carry over the mountains and rivers to bring them home to share them with the Universe.

Best Wishes and good Magic...

Frank
 

bradford

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Having a conversation with Frank is like getting athlete's foot
and it spreads from thread to thread. I need a good fungicide.
 

fkegan

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Having a conversation with Frank is like getting athlete's foot
and it spreads from thread to thread. I need a good fungicide.

Hi Brad,

There is a fungus among us? :eek:

Don't think fungicide would help you. It is in your mind not your feet--and has nothing to do with me. It comes from misconstruing the KWS as an English checker board of pairs. When did that expression of the two halves of the Chou Yi emerge? In the classic text it is divided after hexagram 30.

Frank
 

bradford

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I can't remember who posted this link recently, or where (sorry)
but this 1997 translation by Jeh-Tween Gong is worth studying
http://www.chinese-word-roots.org/yijing.htm
It's an original translation. He moves the grammar around a little too much for my taste, but at least he does it for the sake of being clearer. He rounds off a lot of the culture-specific terms so the reader doesn't have to research what they mean, and so he takes it into a more cosmopolitan, less Zhou Chinese context. Finally, he has found a lot of very good glosses for some of the Chinese characters that I've never seen or thought of. Good one to bookmark.
 

Sparhawk

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Yes, indeed. He also has some other books, including a Chinese Etymology book that promises a lot and for a price that very few can afford. Pity. At least the Yijing translation is available.
 

hilary

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Thank you - bookmarking.

54.3 - "When the bride-to-be seeks, it will be the little sister who is married instead."
- really? Very different. Seeking rather than waiting/ growing hair, and then a different woman altogether getting married...?
 

Trojina

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Thank you - bookmarking.

54.3 - "When the bride-to-be seeks, it will be the little sister who is married instead."
- really? Very different. Seeking rather than waiting/ growing hair, and then a different woman altogether getting married...?

Hilary delightedly gets a new spin on her yearly reading ! :D

I like it too !
 

bradford

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Thank you - bookmarking.

54.3 - "When the bride-to-be seeks, it will be the little sister who is married instead."
- really? Very different. Seeking rather than waiting/ growing hair, and then a different woman altogether getting married...?


Well, that one sure ain't perfect. I wonder what he thought Fan meant. Or the two Yi's for that matter. I guess there are things to be said for being anal-retentive about the grammar, a discipline which would absolutely destroy Rutt.
 

fkegan

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Thank you - bookmarking.

54.3 - "When the bride-to-be seeks, it will be the little sister who is married instead."
- really? Very different. Seeking rather than waiting/ growing hair, and then a different woman altogether getting married...?

Hi Hilary,

It is nice to see Chinese work looking at the ideograms to find their universal meaning, rather than just rejecting the whole notion since Ezra Pound did a poor job of it translating the Book of Odes. However, these premises are flawed and his understanding compromised by his studies in physics. It is similar work to mine only with a less scholarly perspective and lamentable bias.

As you and Bradford note, in the specific detail of hex 54.3 his new translation makes little sense. Little sister is the term for the marriage of a pretty young thing as a concubine for an older man, like our trophy wives for successful executives today. This translation takes a moral stand against the bride-to-be. But there is nothing in this hexagram to support such opprobrium. This moving line is Yin becoming Yang and hex 54.3>>34 this girl knows what she wants and gets it; changing her lowly status as Yin in hex 54 to the powerful 4-Yang line block of 34. Wilhelm also notes that this girl by her efforts raises her status to the highest available. Like the Jamaican slave girls who by bearing children by their white British masters started their family on the road to becoming Sec of State Colin Powell and Malcolm Gladwell.

This is an idiosyncratic translation expressing the author's views and prejudice not the essence of the Yi or its text. Your question marks are far more accurate then this new text.

Frank
 
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hilary

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Hilary delightedly gets a new spin on her yearly reading ! :D

I like it too !
More like - Hilary is left wondering what this division into two women might mean.
Well, that one sure ain't perfect. I wonder what he thought Fan meant. Or the two Yi's for that matter. I guess there are things to be said for being anal-retentive about the grammar, a discipline which would absolutely destroy Rutt.
I expect he thought fan meant 'instead'? Things are turned around, the situation is turned around, and then the younger sister marries instead of the bride?
...This translation takes a moral stand against the bride-to-me. But there is nothing in this hexagram to support such opprobrium. This moving line is Yin becoming Yang and hex 54.3>>34 this girl knows what she wants and gets it; changing her lowly status as Yin in hex 54 to the powerful 4-Yang line block of 34. Wilhelm also notes that this girl by her efforts raises her status to the highest available. Like the Jamaican slave girls who by bearing children by their white British masters started their family on the road to becoming Colin Powell and Malcolm Gladwell.

This is an idiosyncratic translation expressing the author's views and prejudice not the essence of the Yi or its text. Your question marks are far more accurate then this new text.

Frank
Hm - I'm certainly familiar with the idea that the marrying maiden's 'lowering herself' when she shouldn't be. Agreed, that's one of those ideas that gets added by moral-happy people. But this translation seems to be implying that because she 'seeks' (or waits?) she loses and the other woman gains. Hence '??'.

On the positive side, at least the marrying maiden isn't growing a beard.
 

fkegan

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More like - Hilary is left wondering what this division into two women might mean.

I expect he thought fan meant 'instead'? Things are turned around, the situation is turned around, and then the younger sister marries instead of the bride?

Hm - I'm certainly familiar with the idea that the marrying maiden's 'lowering herself' when she shouldn't be. Agreed, that's one of those ideas that gets added by moral-happy people. But this translation seems to be implying that because she 'seeks' (or waits?) she loses and the other woman gains. Hence '??'.

On the positive side, at least the marrying maiden isn't growing a beard.

Hi Hilary,

That would be a reference to a different part of her anatomy, which is what the Marrying Maiden theme is all about. Not necessarily growing her beard but giving it grace ala hex 22 and letting it speak for her like John Alden's proposal to Priscilla Mullins on behalf of Standish and she replied, "Why don't you speak for yourself, John?

In terms of the decad, starting with hexagram 51, this 4th of the decad is the initial conditions of the narrative about being thunderstruck in the heart. In hex 54 is the issue of lust or obsession with the eldest son taking the youngest daughter as second wife to supplement his social alliance of his first wife. The ongoing process of the narrative is then hex 55 as the coming together of powerful elements into fireworks or the awe inspiring eclipse with the final product being the uprooting of the thunderstruck heart in hex 56 the Wanderer who is on the road cut off from his roots until he finally in hex 60 finds his natural place where his emotions (water) fit into the topography of the Lake.

The youngest sister is far down on the family totem pole, but young and pretty and eager to please and be pleased. This makes her just a slave or whore in terms of the family status; however, she is good enough and ambitious enough to accept her situation and find her place as a trophy wife for successful older man who finds her both attractive and appealing.

Two women would make no sense. Especially, in that metaphor the younger sister, rather than the youngest sister would be the middle daughter Li who does have problems being not so high status as her elder sister and not as much beautiful fun as her younger sister. But how would she get into hex 54 to have her efforts thwarted and then her limitations promoting the success of the younger sister? She is in hex 55 where in the third line her efforts to land the Man results in breaking his arm. That girl Li just never manages to get her break any day.

Frank
 
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charly

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Hm - I'm certainly familiar with the idea that the marrying maiden's 'lowering herself' when she shouldn't be. Agreed, that's one of those ideas that gets added by moral-happy people. But this translation seems to be implying that because she 'seeks' (or waits?) she loses and the other woman gains. Hence '??'.

On the positive side, at least the marrying maiden isn't growing a beard.
Hi, Hilary:

Don't worry. I always believed that the traditional sense of 54.3 smelt like a blend of hipocresy with justifying prostitution. Even more it follows the custom of blaming the victim because of other's faults.

There where not in Zhous times free lonely girls seeking marriage for beter their humble condition. Women didn't better marrying.

Mariages were arranged by parents, brides had no freedom to choose. Concubines were sold and bought, even they were killed before master's eyes without great opposition for reasons of jealousy or political or militar power. Slaves were fetched like hunting preys.

Little possibilities for low woman, in the ancient China, to acquire a better social status if not by using political means. Say criminal means like intrigue, confabulation, treason, usurpation ...

By such means some concubines became Empresses, like the last Dowager Empress of China that usurped the functions of the true wife and maybe killed her.

Of course, these horrors do not occur only in China.

Some prejucious people prefer to make us believe that protitutes choose freely, that prostitution is a work, not an exploitation, they prefer to blame the victim not the true responsible, more dangerous.

Let me switch the subject.

Do you know why SORORATE was a possitive institution for Zhous rulers?

Of course alliances between powerful families hardly could be dissolved by reason of lack of fertility of the bride. There were more than one, all from the same blood.
A heir was almost inevitable.

BUT THERE WERE ANOTHER POSSITIVE EFFECT: IT INCREASED THE AMOUNT OF YIN ENERGY IN THE HOUSE, MAKING IT LIVEABLE, MODIFYING AN ATMOSOPHERE OTHERWISE UNBREATHABLE.

The bride was not let alone in an hostile unknow milieu, she was escorted by her companions of childhood games, colleages of genre, an affectionate nucleus where she could TALK and LAUGH far from the dissaproval of her husband and her mother in law.

If not they, who went to talk, laugh, caress children, animals, plants...?

Yours,

Charly
 
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Creative endeavors in any and all fields share the magic and the joy of their creativity. The work details are just puzzles to solve and burdens to carry over the mountains and rivers to bring them home to share them with the Universe.

Like how this is said kegan
 

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