Turtle Shells

[my_key]

When considering the early use of oracle bones and turtle shells for divination, in the past, I have kind of glossed over the practice just accepting it as part of the shamanic roots of the I Ching. Recently I stumbled across information on how turtle shells are made up i.e. up to 13 central divisions and up to 28 flutes around the edge of the shell.




This shell configuration varies from species to species and there are even small variations between individuals in a species.
Obviously, with the 13 / 28 configuration there is a correlation to the lunar calendar - 13 lunar months and 28 days in each month - and with it an added reason for why these shells were used in the early Shamanic practices for divination.

I'd be interested to hear other comments or observations people have on this topic and if there are links to articles or books that provide a bit more depth or roundedness on the subject I would be grateful for you sharing them here.

 

[blackred]

When considering the early use of oracle bones and turtle shells for divination, in the past, I have kind of glossed over the practice just accepting it as part of the shamanic roots of the I Ching. Recently I stumbled across information on how turtle shells are made up i.e. up to 13 central divisions and up to 28 flutes around the edge of the shell.

View attachment 5588


This shell configuration varies from species to species and there are even small variations between individuals in a species.
Obviously, with the 13 / 28 configuration there is a correlation to the lunar calendar - 13 lunar months and 28 days in each month - and with it an added reason for why these shells were used in the early Shamanic practices for divination.

I'd be interested to hear other comments or observations people have on this topic and if there are links to articles or books that provide a bit more depth or roundedness on the subject I would be grateful for you sharing them here.

 

[blackred]

Interesting you bring this part up. Personally I cast an Iching every 3 1/2 days on each of the 8 moon phases per cycle. It clarifies the intention of the new moon and further defines it at the next crescent moon, etc around the circle. The 8 lunar phases correspond exactly to the 8 bagua in the following sequence: earth, thunder, fire, lake, heaven, wind, water, and mountain, which in western astronomical terms are respectively as follows: new, crescent, first quarter, gibbous, full, disseminating, last quarter, and balsamic phases.

In effect - the Iching is a lunar based oracle in alignment with the natural sequences of nature, and primarily concerned with self cultivation and secondarily concerned with outer events. When used in conjunction with the lunar cycles it’s an excellent grounding tool, and a perfect instrument for establishing rapport with one’s innermost self.

BlackRed.

 

[Hans_K]

In effect - the Iching is a lunar based oracle

Just curious, what are you basing this on? As far as I know, the I Ching is neither based on the lunar nor solar calendar, but can be used for both.

 

[surnevs]

In David W. Pankenier's book "Astrology and Cosmology in Early China", there's a lot of information concerning the turtle in its many aspects.

In case you don't have the book*) you can download it from academia.edu
In the PDF it's more over easier to find what you search than using the Index in the printed book.

*) Cambridge University Press, U.S. 2013

 

[my_key]

Interesting you bring this part up. Personally I cast an Iching every 3 1/2 days on each of the 8 moon phases per cycle. It clarifies the intention of the new moon and further defines it at the next crescent moon, etc around the circle. The 8 lunar phases correspond exactly to the 8 bagua in the following sequence: earth, thunder, fire, lake, heaven, wind, water, and mountain, which in western astronomical terms are respectively as follows: new, crescent, first quarter, gibbous, full, disseminating, last quarter, and balsamic phases.

In effect - the Iching is a lunar based oracle in alignment with the natural sequences of nature, and primarily concerned with self cultivation and secondarily concerned with outer events. When used in conjunction with the lunar cycles it’s an excellent grounding tool, and a perfect instrument for establishing rapport with one’s innermost self.

BlackRed.

Hi Blackred

Thank you for contributing here.
Certainly the moon's connection with soul work, and innermost self, is well understood in astrology.
I can easily relate to the trigrams aligning with the natural sequences of nature, too. Additionally, the 8 trigrams corresponding to the 8 phases of a lunar cycle fits and connects very neatly. However, a bit like @HansK I would be interested if you could share, if you ae able, the sources you have used for this connection. If possible I would like to explore this a bit more deeply.

Hi surnevs

In David W. Pankenier's book "Astrology and Cosmology in Early China", there's a lot of information concerning the turtle in its many aspects.

In case you don't have the book*) you can download it from academia.edu
In the PDF it's more over easier to find what you search than using the Index in the printed book.

*) Cambridge University Press, U.S. 2013

Thank you. I will investigate the turtle information in this book

 

[surnevs]

In the same book (References, pg. 529) you'll find this mentioned:


Sarah Allan, 1991. The Shape of the Turtle: Myth, Art and Cosmos in Early China (Albany: State
University of New York).

I haven't read the book but the title could maybe speak for itself.

(And concerning the number 28: there are references throughout Pankeniers book to the twenty-eight Celestial Lodges)

 

[my_key]

In the same book (References, pg. 529) you'll find this mentioned:


Sarah Allan, 1991. The Shape of the Turtle: Myth, Art and Cosmos in Early China (Albany: State
University of New York).

I haven't read the book but the title could maybe speak for itself.

(And concerning the number 28: there are references throughout Pankeniers book to the twenty-eight Celestial Lodges)

Thanks. I hadn't got as far as p529 yet.

 

[surnevs]

Thanks. I hadn't got as far as p529 yet.

I apologize.
Years ago I thought about the expression: 'The Signs on the shield of the big turtle' as another way to say: "The Signs on the Celestial Sky". Before this expression was invented I mean. But that was just a momentary thought.

 

[my_key]

Hi surnevs
There is no need for apology. Both your posts have been useful points of reference for me.
I like momentary thoughts. They come, in most cases, as a point of inspiration and in my experience always need careful consideration.

The constellations that bring together the 28 houses are seen in many of the early Eastern cultures, and turtles feature heavily in many of the early stories, especially as symbols of great spiritual significance. They remain as significant totems in many cultures including aboriginal, native American ( US and Canada) and of course Chinese.

It was great to see the turtle step into popular modern culture through the Terry Pratchett books of 'Discworld'.

“The place where the story happened was a world on the back of four elephants perched on the shell of a giant turtle. That's the advantage of space. It's big enough to hold practically anything, and so, eventually, it does.​

People think that it is strange to have a turtle ten thousand miles long and an elephant more than two thousand miles tall, which just shows that the human brain is ill-adapted for thinking and was probably originally designed for cooling the blood. It believes mere size is amazing.​

There's nothing amazing about size. Turtles are amazing, and elephants are quite astonishing. But the fact that there's a big turtle is far less amazing than the fact that there is a turtle anywhere.” (Terry Pratchett - The Last Hero)​

 

[my_key]

Having researched a bit more it seems that the divination with turtle shells was conducted on the plastron, the flat belly shell - representing earth, rather than the domed upper carapace which represented heaven and the cosmos. The 4 legs of the turtle represented the 4 quadrants and the space they held (SE, SW, NW, NE).

It appears that the process of divination in those way off early days was:
The shells were inscribed with positive and negative prognostications.
Holes were made in the shell, or bone, and then a red-hot hardwood poker was applied to the shell, or bone, to produce a crack.
This process was applied 4 or 5 times for each divination to determine, via the path the cracks took, if the prognostication was auspicious or otherwise.

Turtles represent water, the hot poker fire. Yang is represented by fire, Yin by water.

So I'm still not seeing how the shell divisions on the carapace, other than representing the cosmos, might link to a lunar calendar approach.

 

[surnevs]

You might possibly have seen this six-year-old thread, but if not.... (there's a lot of general information to gain in it and many links, some of them though outdated.)

 

[my_key]

Hi surnevs
This makes for a fascinating read into the early divination practices and shows what information there is below the surface. Thank you for your generosity in sharing.

I particularly liked reading "𝗔 𝗖𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗠𝘆𝘁𝗵𝗼𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝗠𝗮𝗻𝘁𝗶𝗰 𝗧𝘂𝗿𝘁𝗹𝗲𝘀, 𝗬𝘂 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗚𝗿𝗲𝗮𝘁, 𝗡𝘂𝗺𝗯𝗲𝗿, 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗗𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻" by David W Pankenier and was struck by some of the diagrams relating to Liubo Board Divination which reminded me of your work you have posted in Clarity looking for pattern and symmetry in the layout of the 64 hexagrams. This board game only includes up to the number 60, however the symmetry of the board was quite pronounced.

Thanks once again.

 

[surnevs]

Was this what you meant (From here )? Attached

 

[my_key]

Yes, that is the one I remembered when I saw this board layout, although your other images are also strong in the symmetry they portray.

There is also a more stylised and a simplified image later in the paper.