Two inquiries yield fascinating, highly connected answers (and I don't understand!)

[Xunwen]

Dear Clarity community,

Hello, I'm new in these forums and my first post is a doozie. My wife and I do readings together about things that effect us both. We use the yarrow stalk method with homemade stalks and have 4 different I Ching books as well as online references. We've only been working with the Yi for a little over two years. The fact is we still do not always understand the answers we receive. I could go on but I will stick to the latest readings. It was about a mundane but crucial matter and the answers absolutely amazed us. My hope is it will interest readers and spark some conversation, perhaps we may even gain some advice and insight. I only hope we can help others here someday.

We live in a major city in a rental, we have an excellent rate but we feel we do not want to live here anymore. Due to our lease, we can get a buyout and that money will be necessary for us to be able to go anywhere. Without getting into too much detail, we will require a decent-size buyout and a proper agreement and it would of course be done using a lawyer. If the buyout offer is too low then we must stay. We do have the right to stay by contract, so you understand, we cannot lose the place unless we agree to leave.

We weren't sure when to start the inquiry with the landlord, and then we realized that Mercury is now in retrograde and will be until October 2nd. We asked two questions, all the while taking into account the context I laid it out earlier (and of course more). We opened one inquiry and wrote down all the countings, then without pausing to decipher the first we opened the second inquiry and wrote down all those countings. We asked...

1) What if we approach the landlord during this period of Mercury in retrograde?
2) What if we wait until the retrograde ends to approach the landlord?

These were the answers...

1) 6, 1.3.5 - Sung, Conflict


changing to
14 – Ta Yu, Possession in Great Measure


2) 8 (no changing lines) - Pi, Holding Together



Now I don't know how much I can expect to take up people's time with a full inquiry into both these answers, but let me at least say what drove me to post this today. I'm sure you've already spotted what blew us away about this pair of answers, and that's even before you get into the meanings of the initial or secondary hexagrams. The first question gave us a hexagram with three changing lines resulting in 14, while the second question gave us 8 straight up which is the precise inverse (if that's the term) of 14, every yin a yang and every yang a yin. Since we use stalks it may be worth mentioning that two of the changing lines were old yin, the least likely of all line countings at a chance of 1-in-16. Regardless of that and unless I'm mistaken (I readily admit I may be), while the chances of getting any one hexagram are 1 in 4,096, the probability of getting every line inverted in the second related reading's hexagram is … astronomical (I tried and got a ridiculous number).

Here's where I get very confused because I'm sure the Yi is trying to tell us no small thing in a quite unambiguous way but our little minds can't grasp it. We have learned over these years to pay attention to the main hexagram and especially any changing lines. There is more than enough to learn in a lifetime with just those. We tried to learn about relating or secondary hexagrams but are frustrated by the gray vacillation of the definition. They represent where the situation will go or end up; they represent what you're thinking; they're a goal; they're a warning; they show how you relate to the problem; they mean nothing — these and more have we come across in good authoritative texts, sometimes multiple conflicting definitions in the same source. So though we dearly would like to have good and useful insight into the matter, we don't often put much stock in the relating hexagram; we hold out hope for grasping the issue someday. But this time it has the appearance of the incontrovertible, or at least we can't be blamed for thinking so. How can two related inquiries into a 'when' produce these results and the first question's related hexagram still be insignificant? I feel convince the Yi is trying to tell us something, to grow up, and we don't want to miss the message. Any help, advice, sober fact-checking or shared awe out there?

Many thanks.

 

[Liselle]

That is interesting. It's amazing how real answers and the laws of statistics go together in the I Ching.

My first thought is it might have happened as you said, because you asked the second question before looking at the first one. You asked the opposite quesrion and got the relating hexagram's opposite hexagram. Maybe Yi's also trying to say don't forget the relating hexagram.

I haven't looked at what the readings actually say...will do that tomorrow.

 

[moss elk]

We have learned over these years to pay attention to the main hexagram and especially any changing lines.

Good enough for now, the relating is not the future. It is a factor that is present.

1) What
if we approach the landlord during this period of Mercury in retrograde?

6.1.2.5 (14)
There is an Argument (6)
about Money (14)
The received hex and the Related hex are both present in the situation. (See this?)

The advice is:
1-don't make a big deal out of it with the landlord or draw it out. (You can't win by emotional words with them, just make your point and calmly move on, or try a letter instead of any casual sort of conversation)
2.-you cannot win this fight on your own.
(You'll need to retreat and get help)
5-But! Somehow it is good to fight this fight.
(With the help of a lawyer?
and you *can* win here.
Line 5 is the line of victory in hex 6)

In this particular reading & situation of yours, the lines, to m.e. , look like....
A time-line of events.
(This happens sometimes,
other times not. Can't apply it as a rule, just one of a few possible types of answers we get)

So, I see the reading as avoiding Contention, or Retreating when it occurs, but still going ahead with it,
And then managing victory.

2) What if we wait until the retrograde ends to approach the landlord?

8 is seeking union.
And 8 advises to seek it as soon as possible,
Don't wait.

So, you can have a talk with the landlord but... be prepared for a harsh reaction,
the progress will likely be found with using the lawyer OR on a 2nd attempt (after a failed 1st attempt)

I *do not* believe the 8 means there will be union if you wait, as 8 is not Union, it is Seeking Union. Big difference.

 

[Liselle]

Hello again.

I mostly agree with Moss Elk. The moving lines seem to be telling a story that ends with 6.5 - as Moss said, "it's good to fight this fight." And I'd interpret 8uc the same way: jump in, don't delay. I have no idea why waiting would be a bad idea - scale is important in readings, so maybe all it means is there's not any particular reason to wait, so why not get underway now so you can move and get on with your life.

Of course it's still important to understand the other two lines, maybe just for understanding, maybe so you can contend better.

Maybe part of it - the "small words" in line 1, for instance - might be that Yi's acknowledging Mercury retrograde but saying it won't have enough effect to ruin things. After all a retrograde doesn't automatically mean every communication/ negotiation fails miserably, it might just make things more difficult, more complicated, things might go less smoothly, something like that. Not that it's doomed.

That's a guess, of course. But Mercury retrograde is what you're worried about and why you asked questions, so I figure Yi probably addressed it.

~ But ~
​

I'm fundamentally confused about what's going on here.

You're renting, you have a lease, and you want to break the lease in order to move. Is that right?

And somehow if you break the lease, the landlord pays you to do so? I don't understand that at all. That's the exact opposite of anything I've ever heard of with leases.

 

[Xunwen]

Thank you both!

[in reference to my trepidation over interpreting relating hexagrams...]

Good enough for now, the relating is not the future. It is a factor that is present.

I later found an old post by Hillary which says a few things I really don't think I was ready to find illuminating until recently (in fact I think I read it just months ago and didn't get it!). https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2011/05/21/why-look-at-the-relating-hexagram/ It doesn't fit into a neat logical package. This idea reminds me slightly of the Holy Trinity in Christianity (putting anyone's beliefs aside and talking only about the system) because it is means to be believed and true despite being illogical (and why should the nature of such a Being be "logical" anyway?). I'm grateful to Hillary for these insights.

6.1.2.5 (14)
There is an Argument (6)
about Money (14)
The received hex and the Related hex are both present in the situation. (See this?)

I think I do. In fact, if I understand you correctly, it's just right there and obvious — very possibly my wife and I were overthinking it. Possession in Great Measure, I'm noting the word Great there, not just any measure. I mean, we need the money to be good if we're to go anywhere because that's the sick reality in the world, everything seems near-to or actually preventatively expensive.

5-But! Somehow it is good to fight this fight.
(With the help of a lawyer?
and you *can* win here.
Line 5 is the line of victory in hex 6)

We got that feeling too. Need of a lawyer was never in doubt, actually, but a good one will be necessary, one who won't get snowed and therefore carries a price tag themselves. There was an initial feeling of, Conflict uh-oh, avoid that, Holding Together/Seeking Union sounds "nicer". But that line 5 would appear to shine a light. Obviously many good things or needed changes can only come after conflict.

A time-line of events.
(This happens sometimes, other times not. Can't apply it as a rule, just one of a few possible types of answers we get)
So, I see the reading as avoiding Contention, or Retreating when it occurs, but still going ahead with it,
And then managing victory.

Very interesting. We have sometimes been struck by the way our changing lines seem to say this, then this, then this. But it is only so sometimes, I think we agree with you that it can't be applied as a rule or even wished for and so planted there. But this kinda looks like an instance. Please if anyone disagrees we'd like to know.

I *do not* believe the 8 means there will be union if you wait, as 8 is not Union, it is Seeking Union. Big difference.

Okay but our first-love I Ching, though never the only one we consult, is the Wilhelm. There it is Holding Together. That sounds like more of a present action than the future-implied one of Seeing. Care to comment? Of course the Chinese words aren't words as we English speakers/thinkers have the concept, so in a way I'm sure both are true. A list of DeKorne's names for the hexagram:
Holding Together, The Symbol of Subaltern Assistance, Union, Unity, Grouping, Alliance, Co-ordination, Leadership, Merging (as with tributaries of a river), Seeking Union, Unification, Accord, Subservience, Individuation, Integration.
Anyway, your point about Seeking Union being different than the idea of Union is well taken. I suppose I could say here that it's Holding Together, not Together (as in no need to do the job of actively Holding). Very interesting!

I have no idea why waiting would be a bad idea - scale is important in readings, so maybe all it means is there's not any particular reason to wait, so why not get underway now so you can move and get on with your life.

Thank you, Liselle! It's really just the Mercury retrograde thing. It's supposed to be a bad time to get into contracts, so we thought we'd ask both what if we act during it and what if we act after it. In other words, for all we know the retrograde could have a mild effect on us in this one situation compared to our 'adversary', and therefore it could be better to act during retrograde (before October 2nd). It sounds as if you're both saying it is. Of course we're nervous and would welcome any indications to the contrary just to make us confused and worried and afraid, hahaha.

Of course it's still important to understand the other two lines, maybe just for understanding, maybe so you can contend better.

Yes! And one of the beautifully fascinating things about the Yi. Line 1, which is of course the first step, is important. We (through our lawyer) bring it up but do not press, if I understand, there is no forcing the issue but the seed will be planted. Do I understand? Any further illumination on this?

Maybe part of it - the "small words" in line 1, for instance - might be that Yi's acknowledging Mercury retrograde but saying it won't have enough effect to ruin things ... might go less smoothly, something like that. Not that it's doomed.

These comments referring to Merc are very appreciated. We'll think more on small words and the meaning here.

And somehow if you break the lease, the landlord pays you to do so? I don't understand that at all. That's the exact opposite of anything I've ever heard of with leases.

We have a lease that is legally protected. It's a long story but basically if we move out, the next tenant could be given a lease at market rate. It's in their interest for us to leave not just because our rent is far lower than what they would charge the next renters, but because they can (more or less) break the chain of custody of the legally protected lease. It's all crazy, I'm not saying we love that the system is this way, in fact I'd love another poor couple, like us or poorer, to move in here rather than the trust-funder or dot-commer who would have to come next to afford it. There ought to be protections today against rate-jacking; in our case, we're just old enough to have them. And frankly we're old enough that we don't want to fight anymore, we're done. But if we go without a buyout or take far less than is normally 'deserved' in these cases, it'll be the street. We can't let that happen. (I don't know why I'm telling you so much, maybe because it's so nice in here.)

Okay, we would really welcome any other takes. And maybe someone wants to address the very striking coincidence (in the Jungian sense) of the inversion present between relating 14 of query one and the 8 of query two. What is it trying to hammer home by giving that? Maybe Moss Elk and Liselle have already said, but maybe others have differing ideas or want to add to theirs. Maybe you've had similar experiences. Thank you!