two kinds of meditation, two hexes

[dobro p]

Some Tibetan meditation teachers talk about two varieties of meditation: vipasyana and samatha. Vipasyana watches what comes up in the mind, and samatha stills the mind. The hex that matches samatha is 52, and it seems to me that the hex that matches vipasyana is 20.

I'm curious what you think about this, especially the idea that Hex 20 might usefully be seen as being about a watching meditation. Actually, I think I'm probably stretching things here, cuz 20 is probably not limited to meditation. However, I do think that the main text of 52 is about meditation basically.

Whatcha think?

 

[lightofreason]

52 reads "with/from self-restraint (suffering,block,stop) comes discernment (quality control)" - it associates with principles common in Buddhism and other mystic approaches and as such includes meditation.

20 is more about being an example and so being looked at, attracting, and in so doing eliciting a focus on becoming influencial (with/from devotion to another comes influence)

20 shares space with 08. 52 shares space with 15. 15 covers keeping things 'level' and so witnessing highs/lows and dealing with them (keep words close to facts etc)

IF you stack the hexagram octets of the binary sequence, so you get a column of '52' oriented hexagrams:

23, 52, 04, 18, 27, 22, 41, 26

These all have discernment as a dominating property.

The ROW of mountain bases are:

15, 52, 39, 53, 62, 56, 31, 33

There is a self-restraint context in these.

We could interpret the pair of 15,52 as variations on stilling the mind OR 15 with its focus on being aware of the highs and lows manifesting the 'watching' of things emerging etc. the "MEDITATION" is 5-line form of 00100 and the two variations come out of 001000 and 001001?

Note that 15 is unconditional in perspective, 52 is conditional.

Chris.

 

[dobro p]

Thanks, Chris.

You know, I've never gotten tons of mileage out of Hex 20, and I've always read it as meaning 'contemplating'. Hmm... You describe 20 more as 'being contemplated' (an example) than as contemplating (it's not one of the 'discernment' hexes you list).

How do you contrast/compare 19 and 20? I can see where influencing is an element common to each.

 

[fyreflye]

Samatha precedes Vipassana in the process of developing insight meditation. The purpose of Samatha is to still the mind, using observation of breath, a mantra, or other tools designed to slow down the torrent of random thought that prevents us from fully experiencing each moment of our lives. Once the mind is quiet (a training process that may take months or even years) the meditator can then attend to observing and mentally reporting the thoughts, physical sensations, feelings or other phenomena that arise during the Samatha state. Neither Samatha nor Vipassana existed as discrete meditation systems at the time the yijing was acquiring its current form. But there's little doubt that some of the gua refer to shamanic riuals that were common in the Shang and Chou dynasties, including some form of mental discipline practiced before attempts were made to contact the spirits.

 

[dobro p]

So, do you think that Hex 20 refers (or *can* refer) to the practise of samatha meditation?

 

[fyreflye]

So, do you think that Hex 20 refers (or *can* refer) to the practise of samatha meditation?

No.

 

[lightofreason]

In the traditional sequence hexagram 19 pairs with hexagram 20.
This pairing reflects a focus on low-to-high relationships, as (a) low approaches the 'high' (19) and (b) low admires, and so gets motivation from, the 'high' (20).

ADMIRATION:

19 : admiration (low-of-high) - through approach [defer]; 19 approaching/defer comes out of a generic context (27-ness) described by hexagram 04 - masking, socialising (note the particular association with 04 approaching a teacher. here is it a general theme of approaching the 'high')

20 : admiration (low-of-high) - through motivate (set an example); 20 admiration/encouragement comes out of a generic context (27-ness) described by hexagram 03 - sprouting, initial difficulties (note here the generic sense of 03 in moving 'upwards', difficulties are overcome etc)

In the binary sequence hexagram 19 pairs with hexagram 41.

This pair reflects an overall focus on concentration, expressed in 19 through a focus on integration (low approaches the high, high defers to the low) and expressed in 41 through a focus on differentiation, a focus on 'purity' through distillation, a concentrated form. Also note that in this pairing is reflected a general sense of concentration, distillation, and so of 'bringing together' to creat a 'pure form'. In 41 the focus is on the 'alchemical' perspective,a clear sense of differentiating, whereas in 19 the perspective is more integrating, as given in the analogy to approaching the high, and the high deferring to the low. Note that any form of alchemy will 'fail' if not done correctly and all that is left is 'worthless' and so the extention of the meanings of 41 into 'bad luck', 'spoil', etc etc. In 19 this 'failure' is reflected in the associated meanings of 'condescend' or 'curse' etc.

Chris.

 

[dobro p]

Okay, one at a time.

Fyreflye:

"No."

Why not?

 

[fyreflye]

Okay, one at a time.

Fyreflye:

"No."

Why not?

Because, as I pointed out in my previous post, "Neither Samatha nor Vipassana existed as discrete meditation systems at the time the yijing was acquiring its current form." Samatha is a Buddhist technique which grew out of meditation systems that evolved in Vedic India. Buddhism entered China no earlier than 25 C.E., and it was a century later that Ch'an Buddhism, which first emphasized a meditation practice similar to Samatha, became recognized as a distinct sect. The Daoist meditation practices taught ny some today, which are closer to the Indian Tantra than to any Buddhist technique, appeared nearly a thousand years later.
I think you may have taken too literally the claim by "some" Tibetan Buddhist teachers that there are two kinds of meditation. That's not even true in Tibetan Buddhism. Mind control practices long predate Buddhism, and distinct techniques like Samatha and Vipassana are traceable back no more than a hundred years to the Buddhist revival that began in Thailand.
If some kind of mental calming practice was common in China during the period of the I Ching's compilation, we have no way of knowing what it was.

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, I appreciate the historical timeline involved, and of course I realize that the Chinese sages who assembled the Yi didn't practise vipassana and samatha as it's practised today, but actually my question was more about modern applications of the Yi to meditation techniques. Maybe if I break it down into two parts...

* Can Hex 20 usefully be thought of as 'just watching, not doing'?

* Does Hex 20 accurately portray the approach taken in samatha meditation?

 

[ewald]

* Can Hex 20 usefully be thought of as 'just watching, not doing'?
In my opinion: Yes.

* Does Hex 20 accurately portray the approach taken in samatha meditation?
20.0 in my opinion does not. In meditation practice there is no intention of doing, so there isn't really a holding back.
20.5 might:
Examining my life.
The noble one is without fault.

 

[rosada]

"Just in case it might be useful" as jesed would say...

Years back I had a chance to met one of the members of the rap group, Wu Tang Clan. We were in an airport, having just returned from Europe where he and his group had played to sold out stadiums. He was about 6ft 4in and wearing a bright orange outfit complete with hot orange tennis shoes. We talked because he spotted the Yin/Yang symbol on my I Ching and wanted to know more about the book. The group was working on an album tentatively titled, "Yin/Yang". I told him about the oracle and we did did a toss asking what was this man's life path. He received Hexagram 20 which I feel very accurately discribed both his being seen and his ability evolve by what he could see around him.

 

[lightofreason]

We can identify the 'plot' of a hexagram by XORing it with the problem solver hexagram - 21. If we take 20 and XOR with 21 we get:

000011 (20)
100101 (21)
--------
100110

This is hexagram 17 with a focus on finding some one or some thing 'new' to believe in, to follow. This behaviour is covered in the observation of that some one /some thing and being stirred, motivated, into action. (the negative side is to make an example of that someone/something and so put-off/warn-against following - but that can lead to creating a martyr etc etc)

The passive attractiveness of the 08/20 pair reflect no activity other than being and that being serves to attract. 08 is unconditional with a focus on one being attracted to the court/king. 20 is conditional with a particular attraction involved, more so admiration (we can be attracted to the court without admiring it, it is the centre of control and so 'useful' but not necessarily admirable)

If we want to view the interior of a hexagram, XOR it with 47. To see the exterior, the gloss, XOR with 22.

47:
000011
010110
--------
010101 thus the inside associates with 64 (avoiding closure - perpetual becoming) Thus WITHIN the admirable outside presence is perpetual 'incompleteness'. This reflects the focus on the presence of change within the apparently 'unchanging' - being an example means an idealist perspective and so a static, complete form (see below) - but the change is present 'within'.

22:
000011
101001
--------
101010 and so from the outside it looks 'complete' - 63 - but full of potentials, a 'new' step opens as the old closes. Thus there is a facade at work here, where the completeness reflected draws attention away from the internal dynamics of perpetual becoming, making errors, correcting them etc)

GIVEN this information, one can see that, BEING 20 involves a lot of internal dynamics and you could consider the internal state as 'contemplative' rather than stillness. The contemplative never stops as such since 'one thing leads to another'. BUT the FOCUS of 20 is on being contemplated, on being externally passive, complete, standing above all else.

Chris.

 

[rosada]

If 20 is said to be about "watching" and not doing, perhaps this has something to do with how one doesn't have to "DO" anything to create, it is one's perspective that creates. You don't "make" friends, you see yourselves as friends and act accordingly.

 

[dobro p]

Mmm, Rosada, that sounds like what Chris is talking about. His descriptions and meanings have just about convinced me. With every traditional pair in the Yi, I see that they share some kind of common ground - they express a contrast or difference to be sure, but they share the same fence, so to speak. Chris is talking about how the emphasis with 20 is being seen, being an example - something or someone people can look up to, I suppose. And it's easier to see how this 'shares a fence' with 19 than if I continue to think of 20 as 'contemplating' or 'viewing'. (Cuz I see 19 as something great approaching and making itself known.) 20 doesn't approach - it's greatness is there to be seen.

So, your example of being friends rather than making friends - yeah, 20 would make itself an example of friendship, 20 would make itself an exemplar of friendship, 20 would make itself into what a friend really is, if friendship were the issue here.

 

[martin]

Interesting. Seen or being seen or both?
Wilhelm and Legge agree that hexagram 20 and the chinese character for it imply both.
But LiSe seems to focus rather exclusively on the aspect of seeing/ contemplation and so does Nigel Richmond.

On her page about hexagram 20 LiSe gives a link to an email from Harmen ('More information on it is HERE' in the section about the character GUAN) in which he writes:

"In Chinese there are two characters which have to do with 'seeing': kan and jian [a component character of GUAN, the name of the hexagram]. They differ from each other like the English words 'looking' and 'seeing'. Kan is a hand above an eye, it represents looking sharply, looking in a direction, but it does not include you really see anything. Jian is a man with emphasis on the eyes: he sees actually. In kan the action is directed from out the viewer, it is more active. In jian it comes toward him, it is more passive."

This (jian) sounds much like what J. Krishnamurti used to call "choiceless awareness" or "the art of listening".
And in his view there was no other 'meditation' than that.


Nigel Richmond writes about hexagram 20:

"The wide view
from a height
contemplates activity
on and in the earth."

and

"See what is there.
Take stock of it
as a whole."

This seems again very similar to "choiceless awareness". It is open to the totality, allows it to be and to come in without fragmentizing it.


Seen or being seen? Both. But I'm inclined to think of "seeing/contemplation" as the primary meaning of hexagram 20.
The open (earth) mind (wood/wind).

If you call the corresponding state "meditation" or not is perhaps partly a matter of words. I would say that hexagram 20 and 52 are both "meditative". The difference is that hexagram 52 is more transcendent, while hexagram 20 is closer to life.
It's the difference between meditation on the mountain top (or in a cave in the Himalaya perhaps) and meditation in the valley, "in the market place". Narziss and Goldmund?

 

[ewald]

It kind of surprises me that hex. 20 is taken to be having "being seen" as a meaning. In my view none of the lines offer that meaning.
The Chinese character 觀 which is the name of the hexagram doesn't have that as a meaning. Muller's dictionary has (username Guest, no password):

# To see, to observe; to observe carefully or closely. To examine in detail. To see broadly, or distantly.
# Vision, line of sight.
# To think, contemplate, speculate, analyze.
# To show, to display, to clarify.
# NUMBER TWENTY of the hexagrams in the Yijing: "View," "Observing."

Other dictionaries go along the same lines.

This is the Chinese for 20.0:
觀 ：
盥 而 不 薦 ，
有 孚 顒 若 。
In Wilhelm's translation, there is for the Judgment:

Contemplation. The ablution has been made,
But not yet the offering.
Full of trust they look up to him.

Perhaps the "looking up" is what make this seem like "being seen." The Chinese character 顒 can mean, according to Muller:

# A large head; largeness.
# To be discreet, cautious.
# Peaceful, mild.
# To look up (esp. with respect).

In my view, this character is however not referring to a person or deity in this context. The last character 若 means that something is "like" something else, and refers to that previous character. So I'm translating 20.0 as:

Examining.
Washed, but not offered.
There is a confident kind of cautiousness.

Another view is that these last two Chinese characters mean something like "reverence."
Anyway, it doesn't mean "being seen."

 

[dobro p]

Ewald, educate me. Can a given Chinese verb be active or passive? For example, can the verb that means 'see' also serve in a passive way (be seen)? Or does the word order change?

I pay you.

You are paid by me.

 

[stevev]

I'd go to the Mountain to meditate, in my experience stilling lead to watching dreams, or am I just sleeping ?

 

[ewald]

Dobro - Let's suppose that I ask the Yi what some other person in my surroundings is doing to me. I receive 20.6:

Examining their life.
The noble one is without fault.

In that case, that person is examining me, and consequently, I am being seen. Does that mean that the answer the Yi gave can be rendered as: "I am being seen?"
No, because that is not the intent of the subject. I am not intending to "be seen," I am not controlling the other person to have him or her intend to see me. The other person is the one who intends to "examine" me.

Suppose I want myself to be seen by a certain person. In that case, I am sort of intending to be seen. What is the Yi going to tell me that I am doing when I consult it?
It is not going to come up with 20.5 or 20.6, as my intent is not to examine. It's going to come up with the reason I want to be seen, like 19.4:

Resulting in approach.
Without fault.

or 48.0, if I'm making myself available as a resource:

The well.
The town renews, the well is not renewed,
not losing, not gaining.
There is coming and going at the well.
A well dried-up completely,
or having no well-rope,
or the jug is stuck in the well,
means misfortune.

or 34.4:

The ordinary man uses force,
the noble one does nothing.
Persistence is dangerous.
A ram butts against the fence,
and gets his horns entangled.

if I try to force the other person to something by seeing me, and it doesn't quite work out.

 

[dobro p]

Well, you're answering my question logically rather than linguistically lol.

Why can't 20.6 be:

"Their lives are being contemplated"

And I'm not talking about forcing anybody to contemplate me; I'm talking about being an example to others. Like a parent does, for example, or an officer in the army, or a department head in a big company.

 

[ewald]

But what is the intent of being an example? Like you say, you're not going to force anybody contemplating you. Leaving out the forcing, you're not even going to intent that someone contemplates you while being an example.

Being an example is behaving in an exemplary way. That's hexagram 14, Noble Being (or Great Possesion), the hexagram text or some line of 14.

You cannot intend someone else to examine you. That is anyhow a choice the other person makes. It is the other person's intent. The other person is the subject of 20.6, not you trying to be an example. The Yi reflects intent, so it is always about the point of view of the one intending.

That doesn't mean that you cannot describe a reading like 20.6 by saying that one person is being seen. It is just not what the Yi is saying. It wouldn't be a precise description, though it may be useful in particular circumstances.

 

[jesed]

Just in case the comment could be useful

"Why are your observing? to learn
Why are you learning? to teach
How do you teach? Being an example for the mass" (another posibility: giving the mass a model of conduct)



The early sovereigns, accordingly, examined the regions and comprehended their societies to stablish their doctrines Bradford's translation

You cann't made a linguistic conclusion about the meaning of a prhase based only in dictionaries. There are always "modisms".

Best wishes

 

[dobro p]

Ewald -

"You cannot intend someone else to examine you."

But you can intend to make yourself an example for people to look at and model their own behavior on. Like a parent does, for example. Like a military leader does, for example. This is especially true for people who are already in leadership and authority positions. People *do* take cues from those who wield authority; it's undeniable. And if you can accomplish that through the power of example, what need is there for force?

 

[ewald]

Dobro - That sounds like 7.0 to me.

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, respected competent leadership is a real important part of 7, for sure, but 7's more about organized force. It ain't about providing inspiring examples lol.

 

[ewald]

I was thinking of the part "Persistence of elder people brings good fortune" in 7.0.
(I know that in some translations this is rendered differently, but the character for "elder" is the same as in 17.2 and 17.3.) These "elder people" serve as some kind of example for the others, in my view.

Inspiring examples are found at hexagram 14.

I don't think we'll reach an agreement on this, Dobro.

 

[dobro p]

Ewald, on questions like this, I'm not looking for agreement, I'm looking for the back and forth of ideas that challenges and tests and trials an idea I'm working on. Your input on this one has been really useful to me, cuz you've hung in there and given it your best shot. (Please don't take this personally in any way at all, but the fact that none of the points you've raised has come anywhere near to convincing me anywhere near as much as the ideas Chris outlined is really, really valuable to me.) I don't want us all to think the same. I'd rather we all worked out our own understanding by comparing ideas. If I put out an idea on this forum, nobody's gonna be convinced by it unless they're *ripe* for it. That's how the power of example works.

 

[heylise]

one of the meanings of Guan (hex. 20): Taoist monastery

LiSe

 

[frank_r]

I have a go too:

20 is the expression of the jump between trigram mountain and trigram lake. In acupuncture it's the gate of the qi, the life axis. The jump from 7 till 2 in the Fu shi sequence. This is the expression of the element fire in acupuncture. The monk on top of the mountain that can resist the cold who found his own warmth inside.

52 more the expression of the meditating from the spirit as mirror between the outside and inside world. As starting point to practice meditating, it's also the first House of Keeping still. More the proces of meditation itself.

Frank R