What am I to learn from this loss? 17.1 > 45.

[elizabeth]

I recently lost my pregnancy at 3 months. I had been working with a psychologist to process past issues with my parents/childhood in order to bring the baby into a cleaner and happier family than the one I grew up with (ie do not want to pass the toxicity on). She suggested that the loss is probably a lesson for me (which doesnt make me feel better). But in case she is right, I asked the why what am i to learn from it? I can think of a number of things but am not sure if any of them are correct.

The response i got was 17.1 > 45.

That line: ‘An official has a change of heart. Constancy, good fortune. Going out of the gates, joining with others, there is achievement.’

Compassionate dragon gives this explanation for that line: "The wise man will not maintain his allegiance to a belief that is no longer supportable. When the time is right, confidence in his judgement will lead on to success. He must be prepared to listen to the opinions of others and so form his own. He must decide whether he will throw in his lot with a leader or whether he himself will lead."

What would that belief be, i wonder?

45 - ‘Gathering’ shows people gathered like grass, or perhaps gathered to bring in the harvest: they have a shared identity, and invest together for a purpose, looking for what will bear fruit. Sometimes this is an external gathering, sometimes an internal one – collecting yourself and integrating your many roles and strengths, getting yourself together. Many people, roles, energies and issues are concentrated in this single focal point.

I am not hearing an answer here, I see that line 1 of 17 leads to joining with others, and 45 is joining with others (plural, not singular??).

I was more focused on a concrete answer: I needed to have different hormone levels (no idea which) I needed better nutrition, i needed more medical monitoring, the relationsihp with my partner wasn't strong enuf so the universe took away the baby, my finances weren't strong enough, so God decided it was the wrong time...or any other number of things. But here I just see "joining with others (who) and collecting yourself."...

help?

 

[mulberry]

I would advise on two things. One, if your psychologist is point-blank suggesting that a miscarriage is some kind of lesson for you, then you need to find a new psychologist. That is very shortsighted and cruel of the psychologist and not at all helpful.

Second, you say at the end you were focused or hoping on a more "concrete answer" from the I Ching regarding why you lost the child. The I Ching is not the place to look for answers regarding any of the things listed (hormone levels, better nutrition, medical monitoring). It is not even the place to look for answers from God in this case. You suffered a tragedy far beyond your control. For concrete answers, please see a doctor who can evaluate the things you listed (medical monitoring, nutrition, hormones). The I Ching can't diagnose or comment on medical issues in direct ways, and shouldn't be used for that.

Please don't blame yourself for this loss. At least 25% of pregnancies naturally miscarry. It is not because you did anything psychically or certainly not something like your finances weren't strong enough so God decided it was the wrong time. It could be as simple and sad an answer as there was something biologically wrong with the infant and it did not develop properly-- this accounts for the majority of miscarriage cases and is nature's way of correcting itself.

I would read 17.1 as telling you not about the pregnancy or why you lost it, but as an answer to how you could reorient your reflections on yourself to reflect reality. Please stop blaming yourself! You did not cause this sad pregnancy loss. The Wilhelm explanation for that line continues, "Once we are ready to listen to the opinions of others, we must not associate exclusively with people who share our views or with members of our own party; instead, we must go out and mingle freely with all sorts of people, friends or foes. That is the only way to achieve something." I would take that as advice to expand your pool of contacts or confidants. It reiterates to me that it is important to consider changing psychologists. Yours sounds very sadly out of touch. And please, see an OB/GYN who can give you the diagnostic tests mentioned (hormonal and nutritional).

I wish you the best of luck, and send you loving and healing light in this difficult time.

 

[elizabeth]

Hi Mulberry,

Thanks for replying. I am already seeing 3 doctors and have tests out on the fetal material, follow up ultrasound on Friday etc etc. So that is already underway. I had to have a procedure to remove the material so, that involves a ton of pre testing and post testing, in addition to all the other prenatal care i already had.

But I meant bigger picture answers I guess along the lines of, if this was due to something I did wrong then i want to know what it was ... Ok maybe not financial but maybe, I dont know, something metaphysical. I just am looking for answers and medically speaking it will be 3 weeks before I know anything at all in terms of genetics or whatnot. (I know the medical statistics - 25% until age 40 then it jumps to 30% for miscarriage, etc etc, but right now in the absence of medical proof, any reason could be the reason)...

I kind of thought it was wrong of the psychologist to suggest that too (even for a non-psychologist, who SAYS that to someone who has lost a child??? really?). I was not blaming myself until she did, and then my mother did, and now I cant get those toxic ideas out of my head that it is MY fault...

 

[mulberry]

Hi Elizabeth,

Thanks for clarifying further. What a difficult, painful situation this must be for you.

I think the confusion you are feeling regarding Yi's answer partially has to do with a disconnect between what you seem to want to be asking ("What did I do wrong?") and your actual worded question, "What lesson is there in this for me?". As far as I see it, Yi answered quite clearly what the "lesson" is: to seek out broader opinions beyond your own close circle of likeminded people (17.1). I could even read this as saying, seek a second opinion from other doctors. Find a new psychologist. Etc. It seems quite clear in that answer.

Where you are going wrong is bringing to your reading of Yi's reply your own assumptions that you are guilty in some way. This is coming from you, not Yi. Guilt and blame are nowhere in 17.1 or 45. That line is about seeking new opinions and new horizons.

Is it possible you unconsciously picked a psychologist who is continuing the toxic pattern you had with your mother? (That your mother blamed you for the miscarriage is all I need to know you have some degree of a toxic relationship with her. That is horrible for a mother to say to a daughter who has just had such a loss!)

If you want to ask Yi, "What did I do wrong in this context?" you can do so... but be prepared to be confused if you are assuming that you did something wrong. I highly doubt you did, physically or metaphysically, and I would be very surprised if Yi told you so. I imagine his response would be more along the lines of telling you you are doing wrong by torturing yourself needlessly with self-blame and what-ifs and by listening to these two unhelpful people, your mother and the psychologist. If you ask Yi again, be open minded enough to read his answer clearly without assumptions abou tyour own guilt.

I wish you the best of luck in recovering from this loss and conceiving again... My mother had me naturally at age 43, if that is any consolation, after having a miscarriage at age 41.

 

[elizabeth]

Thanks again -- I am not blaming the Yi at any point, not at all (myself yes, but not the Yi). And thanks for clarifying what the line was -- that is actually a good answer to my question - to seek other opinions and other horizons. I am not speaking to either my mother (or father, he's her ally) or the psychologist now bc I dont need more people lecturing me and blaming me right now.
Actually I didnt pick the psychologist, she sort of picked me -- it is a long story but she was very helpful in supporting me during the pregnancy until this happened, then SUDDENLY she did a 180 degree about-face, and contradicted everything she had said to me in the past 3 mos (to the point of suggesting i NOT try to conceive again...!)
My mother has treated me toxically since I was born so - yeah, but that is another story/another thread.

It's comforting to hear your mom had you at that "late" age. I turn 40 in February and really dont want to have to wait another 3 yrs...plus egg quality drops precipitously, not a fact i can conceive in 3 more yrs etc... but again, another topic.

For now you clarified the main idea-- to not listen to those "close" to me (these toxic voices) and move away frm them, so that for now is what am going to be doing!

Thanks for your kindness to me

 

[precision grace]

I recently lost my pregnancy at 3 months. I had been working with a psychologist to process past issues with my parents/childhood in order to bring the baby into a cleaner and happier family than the one I grew up with (ie do not want to pass the toxicity on).

help?

17.1 is about standards changing and resulting hex is 45 which is about group think/group standards, so I think this hex echos your thinking about wanting to change the standards of relating to others.

If you are worried that you accidentally contributed to the miscarriage then perhaps ask a question specifically about that? I agree that blaming yourself is pointless, but hey, we are only human, blaming ourselves is what we do. SO don't go blaming yourself for not being able to not blame yourself either, if you know what I mean..

 

[mulberry]

You're welcome, Elizabeth. You are in a time that is not easy. I didn't think you were blaming Yi! Not at all! Sorry if I gave that impression-- I think you are blaming yourself, and without reason.

Your psychologist sounds very strange. It's alarming to me that she "picked" you. I think of good psychologists as being almost like guru/holy man figures (in a positive sense) in that they should be neutral or even a little bit aloof and resistant to being adopted by their followers. You should have to pursue them a little-- certainly not the other way around, where she is picking you. That to me is a sign that she is drawing energy from you somehow or getting a kind of enjoyment out of the proceedings that doesn't benefit you. This is all in the context of her blaming you for your own miscarriage and not being supportive. Also, no psychologist has a place in giving advice about whether or not to try to conceive a child, especially as you near the close of your childbearing years. She can help you reflect on your doubts or reasonings, but she has no place giving her own opinions. It is YOUR decision. Is this woman licensed? She sounds like she has severely overstepped boundaries and is doing a disservice to her profession.

It's good you recognize your parents behavior towards you. It is the first step in breaking away and you seem to be well on the path...if you can just stop hurting/blaming yourself.

If you want to be a mother, you should try again as soon as your medical doctors give you the go ahead... and it is you and only you who can decide whether you are ready or want to be a parent (and it sounds like you know you are both). Don't listen to people who tell you that you are not spiritually evolved enough or your finances aren't strong enough or any other such nonsense. You can raise a baby on very little money if you are careful and frugal. But most importantly try to have confidence and take heart and believe in your innate worth and goodness.

Best of luck with the future! I hope you swiftly conceive a healthy child as soon as you are medically able and wish to do so, and have an easy pregnancy and birth.

 

[cornucopia]

Hello Elizabeth this is my view for what it's worth.

Hexagram 45 in the I Ching advises you to stand up for what you know is true. When people gather together in large groups, such as families there are times when conflict is inevitable. You are in a position of great responsibility. Keep on top of things. You need to show that you are the leader in this group. If you can anticipate potential difficulties you can take appropriate steps to nip them in the bud. Try to act in the best interests of all concerned. You need to be in a place of healing and rest. Your body needs to recover first from the miscarriage.

 

[elizabeth]

Cornucopia, thanks - that is a helpful commentary on this hex. It's funny, when this all happened my feeling was I'm not the leader, I dont have any say in the outcome. But now that I think of it, you're right. Although one kind of wishes other people will support you at a time like this, in fact you have to support yourself. In my case it means informing myself and my partner of what needs to be done medically and then doing it. Kind of like "managing the future" so to speak. And not listening to toxic voices...

Mulberry, thanks for your words.

That to me is a sign that she is drawing energy from you somehow or getting a kind of enjoyment out of the proceedings that doesn't benefit you. This is all in the context of her blaming you for your own miscarriage and not being supportive. Also, no psychologist has a place in giving advice about whether or not to try to conceive a child, especially as you near the close of your childbearing years. She can help you reflect on your doubts or reasonings, but she has no place giving her own opinions. It is YOUR decision. Is this woman licensed? She sounds like she has severely overstepped boundaries and is doing a disservice to her profession.

Yeah i agree with you, and I'm going to distance myself from her from now on. She is licensed but... I think she has some serious issues of her own, maybe it's why she went into that line of work, I dont know. But it is bizarre out of the woodwork telling me not to conceive - I agree w/you that no one (much less a psychologist!) has a right to do that esp at my age. Also we had just spent 3 mos discussing how my MOTHER had told me "dont ever have kids" and how now i have very limited time and options to make this happen. Then she goes and says the same thing - i dont know. What alter universe vortex have i suddenly fallen into?

It's good you recognize your parents behavior towards you. It is the first step in breaking away and you seem to be well on the path...if you can just stop hurting/blaming yourself.
If you want to be a mother, you should try again as soon as your medical doctors give you the go ahead... and it is you and only you who can decide whether you are ready or want to be a parent (and it sounds like you know you are both). Don't listen to people who tell you that you are not spiritually evolved enough or your finances aren't strong enough or any other such nonsense. You can raise a baby on very little money if you are careful and frugal. But most importantly try to have confidence and take heart and believe in your innate worth and goodness.
Best of luck with the future! I hope you swiftly conceive a healthy child as soon as you are medically able and wish to do so, and have an easy pregnancy and birth.

Thanks so much

precision - your comments gave me one thought...when this all happened we had to inform his family and my family and the stress and UNSOLICITED advice that came at me was unbelievable. I was trying to take care of myself and even that was a struggle, with the nausea and extreme fatigue of first semester (which is normal but that doesnt make it easy) and just get thru my workdays. But on top of it this "group" just added unnecessary and very unhelpful stress. So, in round two, I'm not going there. People can wait to learn i'm pregnant when i actually go to the hospital to deliver. No tolerance for this...

 

[elizabeth]

[deleted, duplicate post]

 

[Trojina]

Hi Elizabeth, nothing much to add as I think you have had some fantastic answers. Just wanted to say how sorry I am this has happened to you

 

[elizabeth]

Hi Elizabeth, nothing much to add as I think you have had some fantastic answers. Just wanted to say how sorry I am this has happened to you

Hi Trojan - long time no chat, i hope you're doing well. Thanks for your wishes

 

[precision grace]

this is why I would never consider having a wedding or children - because those things are not our own, they belong to the community, and the idea of having to consider other people's wishes about anything to do with my life is completely abhorrent to me.

Good luck for the future and I'm very sorry for the suffering you have had/are having to endure.