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What difference will cleaning the marbles and bowl have on my divination practice? 19: 1.2.5 <> 8

my_key

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Hi All
For many years I have used coloured marbles. I replaced my old supermarket pate dish with a more appropriate bowl a few years ago. The marbles are kept in a glasses case, which has an owl motif on it, and this sits in the bowl in between my using them for divination. Through years of handling a build up of natural skin oils and grime had collected on the surface of some of the marbles rendering them partially covered with a black film. I had used them with this 'coating' for a long while and then last week I decided to give then a good clean. Marbles and bowl went through an eco-friendly cycle in the dishwasher and came out sparkling clean.

My first question with my revitalised tool kit was
What difference will cleaning the marbles and bowl have on my divination practice? 19: 1.2.5 <> 8

The gist of this consultation seems to me to be one where I have more deeply rooted my connection with Yi through taking a small but important responsibility for the upkeep of things at my end of the telephone line. This is encouraging a return to normal transmission, or even an upgrade to 5G, and will eventually pay long term dividends in the way that I am able to receive help from Yi.

I am interested to hear what anyone else has to add around this .
 
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Trojina

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Marbles and bowl went through an eco-friendly cycle in the dishwasher and came out sparkling clean.


You put marbles in a dishwasher ? Wouldn't they get stuck/fly about/cause damage to the dishwasher ?


I don't have a dishwasher but from what I've seen of them they don't seem marble friendly.

I did once put my crystal, a crystal I had for many years, accidentally in a washing machine and it knocked the edges off.

How could you keep marbles stationary in a dishwasher ?

I'd have thought to show true respect you'd have washed them by hand :spinning: or sucked them clean
 
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my_key

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You put marbles in a dishwasher ? Wouldn't they get stuck/fly about/cause damage to the dishwasher ?
Inside a string bag - no noise, no flying about, no damage .
I'd have thought to show true respect you'd have washed them by hand :spinning:
That maybe so but I couldn't have provided as part of that process 5-15%: Oxygen-based Bleaching Agent, <5%: Non-ionic Surfactants, Perfume (Limonene), Enzymes, Others: Sodium Citrate, Sodium Carbonate, Polypeptide, Disodium Disilicate, Bleach Activator, Sodium Bicarbonate, Sorbitol, Bentonite, Glycerin, Sodium Gluconate.
 

Trojina

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Well true.

What difference will cleaning the marbles and bowl have on my divination practice? 19: 1.2.5 <> 8


It seems washing the marbles honours the process and carries more light and intent than one might imagine, and marbles are things of light. It's as if it was work/preparation(19) that reunified you and Yi.

Oh I can't help but note the yang pattern is 60 and the yin pattern 56 and yet I have nothing intelligent to say about that.

Sometimes these kinds of actions carry far more import than we imagine.

Not long ago I was trying to do some written work and I had the most insistent and repetitive thought that everything would flow easier for me if I moved my table to the far corner of the room which was at that time thoroughly constipated with books, bookshelves and papers and so on. 'Too much work' I thought and besides what difference does it make where the table is? The thought would not leave so I obeyed it.

I moved all the shelves and found I had many books that just had no relevance for me anymore and got rid of them. I cleared the constipated corner. I had electrical sockets fitted so I could light up the corner. I moved the table and positioned myself in the corner, a completely different view. I moved the furniture all around the other end of the room also. I felt ordered and focused and more peaceful and I got the written work done quickly and done well. So it worked.

So if you had the urge to wash your marbles something's going on, something's changed by that act. I wonder if simply obeying what can seem like just a minor urge for change does 'honour the process' and allows other things to come through.


I think 19.1.2.5>8 looks like honouring the process though I know it's a cliche but it works here similar to how moving the table did for me
 

dfreed

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What difference will cleaning the marbles and bowl have on my divination practice? 19: 1.2.5 <> 8
One thing that stands out for me is the movement of the two first lines, 1, 2 - changing 19's lower trigram from Lake to Earth (Hex. 8's lower trigram). 19's lower trigram represents joy, but also your connection with the Yi - how you communicate with 'it'. And Lake is also associated with diviners and shamans (e.g. the open top line lets in communications from 'on high').

And so with trigram Earth, the Yi is saying that for you to have a joyful, communicative, and spirited connection with the Yi that a real, down-to-earth ritual involving cleaning your marbles will be beneficial.

The movement from Hex. 19 (1.2.5) to Hex. 8 also means that trigram Earth (and it's meanings and associations) becomes more internal for you, and trigram Water (8's upper bagua) manifests itself: that you can now go more deeply with your practice - that (perhaps) mythically speaking you can now 'go with River Oracle's flow'.

Interestingly, looking at the Sancai - the "three realms" of Heaven, Earth and Man (humans), moving lines 1 and 2 put you exactly in the Earth Realm (the hexagram's lower two lines); which means that Earth is central to what's happening here! It's all about the Earth - or as the song says, 'it's all about the bass' (base, basis, back to basics) ...

... and decidedly there is 'No Treble' here! - no bagua Heaven - either in the Yi's words, or in any of the trigrams or nuclear trigrams; you have what Stephen Karcher might call an 'Earth Ritual' - and perhaps the marbles and bowls are your 'earth altar' (a phrase Karcher uses).

And speaking of being 'down to Earth', I think it's important to note that this ritual is about 'your' divination practice: this is something useful for you, but that doesn't make it a universally-applicable rule for the Yi - that we must then all follow.

(See below for music video ... all about that bass)

Richard Rutt names Hex. 19, 'Keeening' which is a public - and perhaps ritualistic - grieving, wailing or crying. Lines 19.1 and 19.2 are about 'tearful keening', whereas 19.5 is about 'controlling the keening'. I'm not sure exactly what this means for your query, but getting creative here:

Could 'cleaning' ones marbles (borrowing from the phrase 'losing one's marbles' - though that's not what this is about) also be about clearing out the cobwebs in your mind - perhaps even unresolved grief (again, 8's bagua water/abyss) - and that this ritual allows you the time and a means to do this. (Or maybe that along with the marble cleansing, you also need to clear out these cobwebs?)

So, the overall movement - this ritual of cleansing - takes you from a place of 'Keening' to one of 'Joining' (Rutt's Hex. 8) - a closer, grounded, more joyful connection with the Yi.

This ritual will not change what the Yi says to you (or how the marbles, or coins 'land'), or how it responds to your queries, but through this ritual, you may be in a better place to hear and understand what the Yi saying.

PS - I have 16 wooden disks (instead of marbles) that are like wooden nickels. I keep them in a half-pint cottage cheese container, though I haven't used them for casting in a long time. I also have 42 small pebbles I collected at near-by beaches, and I do use these quite often for casting, in a style similar to how they are used in Tibetan divination. I keep them in a small metal container - a 'tin' - that people sometimes use holding herbs, or in my case, etching inks! These stones usually - but not always - give me more moving lines, so if I'm feeling frisky, or adventurous, or just moody or defiant, I may use them.

And now for a bit of fun - 'and every inch of you is perfect from the bottom to the top":

D
 
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my_key

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you can now go more deeply with your practice - that (perhaps) mythically speaking you can now 'go with River Oracle's flow'.

Interestingly, looking at the Sancai - the "three realms" of Heaven, Earth and Man (humans), moving lines 1 and 2 put you exactly in the Earth Realm (the hexagram's lower two lines); which means that Earth is central to what's happening here! It's all about the Earth - or as the song says, 'it's all about the bass' (base, basis, back to basics) ...

... and decidedly there is 'No Treble' here! - no bagua Heaven - either in the Yi's words, or in any of the trigrams or nuclear trigrams; you have what Stephen Karcher might call an 'Earth Ritual' - and perhaps the marbles and bowls are your 'earth altar' (a phrase Karcher uses).

And speaking of being 'down to Earth', I think it's important to note that this ritual is about 'your' divination practice: this is something useful for you, but that doesn't make it a universally-applicable rule for the Yi - that we must then all follow.

(See below for music video ... all about that bass)

Richard Rutt names Hex. 19, 'Keeening' which is a public - and perhaps ritualistic - grieving, wailing or crying. Lines 19.1 and 19.2 are about 'tearful keening', whereas 19.5 is about 'controlling the keening'. I'm not sure exactly what this means for your query, but getting creative here:

Could 'cleaning' ones marbles (borrowing from the phrase 'losing one's marbles' - though that's not what this is about) also be about clearing out the cobwebs in your mind - perhaps even unresolved grief (again, 8's bagua water/abyss) - and that this ritual allows you the time and a means to do this. (Or maybe that along with the marble cleansing, you also need to clear out these cobwebs?)

So, the overall movement - this ritual of cleansing - takes you from a place of 'Keening' to one of 'Joining' (Rutt's Hex. 8) - a closer, grounded, more joyful connection with the Yi.

This ritual will not change what the Yi says to you (or how the marbles, or coins 'land'), or how it responds to your queries, but through this ritual, you may be in a better place to hear and understand what the Yi saying.

PS - I have 16 wooden disks (instead of marbles) that are like wooden nickels. I keep them in a half-pint cottage cheese container, though I haven't used them for casting in a long time. I also have 42 small pebbles I collected at near-by beaches, and I do use these quite often for casting, in a style similar to how they are used in Tibetan divination. I keep them in a small metal container - a 'tin' - that people sometimes use holding herbs, or in my case, etching inks! These stones usually - but not always - give me more moving lines, so if I'm feeling frisky, or adventurous, or just moody or defiant, I may use them.

And now for a bit of fun - 'and every inch of you is perfect from the bottom to the top":

D
Hi David
I like the idea of connection with the earth (lines 1&2) and the stronger centring (internalising) that brings. A sense of immanence seems to exude from this when aligned with your words that there is no treble(heaven) here and because of that I will be dwelling 'in a better place to hear and understand what the Yi is saying'.
Also your reference to Rutt and 'keening' relating to a public showing of grief and wailing makes for interesting reflection for me too.

Thank you.
 

my_key

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It seems washing the marbles honours the process and carries more light and intent than one might imagine, and marbles are things of light. It's as if it was work/preparation(19) that reunified you and Yi.

Oh I can't help but note the yang pattern is 60 and the yin pattern 56 and yet I have nothing intelligent to say about that.

Sometimes these kinds of actions carry far more import than we imagine.

Not long ago I was trying to do some written work and I had the most insistent and repetitive thought that everything would flow easier for me if I moved my table to the far corner of the room which was at that time thoroughly constipated with books, bookshelves and papers and so on. 'Too much work' I thought and besides what difference does it make where the table is? The thought would not leave so I obeyed it.

I moved all the shelves and found I had many books that just had no relevance for me anymore and got rid of them. I cleared the constipated corner. I had electrical sockets fitted so I could light up the corner. I moved the table and positioned myself in the corner, a completely different view. I moved the furniture all around the other end of the room also. I felt ordered and focused and more peaceful and I got the written work done quickly and done well. So it worked.

So if you had the urge to wash your marbles something's going on, something's changed by that act. I wonder if simply obeying what can seem like just a minor urge for change does 'honour the process' and allows other things to come through.


I think 19.1.2.5>8 looks like honouring the process though I know it's a cliche but it works here similar to how moving the table did for me
Hi Trojina
I like your analogy with the table moving - a small act unblocking something and making a huge unexpected difference. That resonates with what I was making of the reading. Divination practice is such a personal thing though that it can be hard to see things clearly, especially the more personal it becomes. Your comments about preparation and reunification also have a comforting ring to them.

I have seen you write about yang pattern and yin pattern before and the fact that you have mentioned them here but can find 'nothing intelligent to say about that' intrigues me. Would you be able to explain your understanding of yang pattern and yin pattern as these are not things that I regularly work with. If you can do that it may help me to join some dots to 60 and 56.

Many Thanks for your interpretation
 

Trojina

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Would you be able to explain your understanding of yang pattern and yin pattern as these are not things that I regularly work with. If you can do that it may help me to join some dots to 60 and 56.

My understanding is a bit vague, possibly because the patterns aren't anything really fixed. In her course on them Hilary says they can be what the reading is about in objective terms. The yang pattern what's happening here, what this is about and the yin pattern a way to proceed through that.

I suppose that's roughly how I see them but mostly I like to notice them as it shows a more almost factual picture of what's going on, what it was you actually came to the reading about, what the reading is a matter of.

So here in your reading I don't really understand what they convey. It would look like what this is about is a matter of means and measures (60) which come to think of it may be what casting tools are, a way of measuring so maybe 60 is showing just that, this question was about means and methods and measuring which is what all casting tools are for, the measures to get to the reading. But what about the 56 as yin pattern ? Hmm, hmm, uuum.....eeer could be the method itself is the traveller, in itself it's not fixed as a thing it's just the means to get where you are going, to the reading.

I'd like to see if @hilary has any other ideas here about the patterns here ?
 

my_key

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My understanding is a bit vague, possibly because the patterns aren't anything really fixed. In her course on them Hilary says they can be what the reading is about in objective terms. The yang pattern what's happening here, what this is about and the yin pattern a way to proceed through that.
Whats happening here is 60.
'Articulating the Crossing' in Karcher speak. Articulating is about making things more clear and distinct. Maybe cutting out the buzz on the line that the grime was causing so that the two way radio has less interference to the signal. The message now has an easier crossing in some small 'table moving way'.That could make some sense.

Not so clear on yin pattern of change
The way to proceed through 60 is by means of 56 ?
The way to proceed through that situation 19<>8 is by means of 56?

Which of those two makes the best question or would you phrase it another way?
 

Trojina

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I guess it's important to stress we mustn't make the change patterns into answer or as advice in the way the answer can be.

As you know the change patterns are always complements/opposites. They slot into one another perfectly - that wasn't always obvious to me.

I think Hilary puts the yin pattern significance as something like 'this is where there's space for the yang pattern to act upon/within'. If the yang pattern impacts onto things the yin pattern makes a space for the yang to act. So here 56 gives 60 space to work through. What are those toys called where there's all these filings and if you put your hand on one side all the pins come out in the exact same pattern on the other side....like that

I think how to use the yang/yin patterns is still very open to experimentation so I'm not dead fixed on how to use them but they have to be an added dimension and I feel, as Hilary says, they are the more outer reality, not necessarily anything to do with your perceptions but a more objective picture of what this reading is about, here Measuring and Travelling.

It begs the question of whether you travel with your marbles.
 

hilary

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I'd like to see if @hilary has any other ideas here about the patterns here ?
Not a whole lot, though I do like the reading. I had a 19 reading once that seemed to be commenting on the use of marbles and bowl for divination - except this one was outdoors, and the 'bowl' was a natural indentation in the ground, just the right size, that happened to be just where I was sitting. 19 looks to me very much like the marbles in the bowl.

I think of the complementarity/opposition of 60 and 56 in terms of language, so maybe there's something there? 60 creates a shared language, like agreeing on weights and measures or tuning to 440; the Traveller is limited to his phrasebook and possibly some pointing and shouting. (I just remembered the girl who went to buy grapes at the market when our youth orchestra was on tour in Germany. She had no idea what a kg was, but asked for one of them anyway. Pretty much the whole orchestra ate grapes.)

Yang pattern 60 - a question of your shared language and measures with Yi, your agreement?
Yin pattern 56 - openings through where you go with it, on your unique and solitary journey. (Just keep an eye on your cattle.)
Or something, maybe.
 

my_key

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I guess it's important to stress we mustn't make the change patterns into answer or as advice in the way the answer can be.

As you know the change patterns are always complements/opposites. They slot into one another perfectly - that wasn't always obvious to me.

I think Hilary puts the yin pattern significance as something like 'this is where there's space for the yang pattern to act upon/within'. If the yang pattern impacts onto things the yin pattern makes a space for the yang to act. So here 56 gives 60 space to work through. What are those toys called where there's all these filings and if you put your hand on one side all the pins come out in the exact same pattern on the other side....like that

I think how to use the yang/yin patterns is still very open to experimentation so I'm not dead fixed on how to use them but they have to be an added dimension and I feel, as Hilary says, they are the more outer reality, not necessarily anything to do with your perceptions but a more objective picture of what this reading is about, here Measuring and Travelling.

It begs the question of whether you travel with your marbles.
That's the thing I don't really have a clue about the change patterns. Please don't assume there is any 'As you know' involved. It does sound like a bit of articulating from Hilary would oil the wheels here.

As for my marbles travelling? They do have a permanent home and I haven't managed to lose them yet.

@hilary - Crossed posting.
 

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Hex. 19, Approaching, has in its Judgement this phrase that I have never fully understood:
"..... ends in the eighth month, misfortune comes".
The eighth month is September in our calendar. I've read all kinds of explanations concerning this eighth month and nearly all of them with each their explanation.... But anyway in this reading it
seems maybe to fit with this cleaning of the media used (marbles) before the arrival of this eighth month.
PS: I find though Alfred Huangs explanation, from which I've quoted above, satisfying.
 

my_key

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Hex. 19, Approaching, has in its Judgement this phrase that I have never fully understood:
"..... ends in the eighth month, misfortune comes".
The eighth month is September in our calendar. I've read all kinds of explanations concerning this eighth month and nearly all of them with each their explanation.... But anyway in this reading it
seems maybe to fit with this cleaning of the media used (marbles) before the arrival of this eighth month.
PS: I find though Alfred Huangs explanation, from which I've quoted above, satisfying.
Alfred Huang's commentary on the hexagram and the changing lines does make for interesting reading for this divination and his 'ending in the eigth month' wording does sit well in this context. I get a sense of the washing of the marbles being a right action completed at the right time. This was an act of free will on my part and by doing this as a first step, this act becomes a nucleus for further 'growing and advancing' in 'preparing oneself to be great, a leader' (Huang's words in italics). An ending of one age and the beginning of a new cycle.

Perhaps a case of 'from tiny acorns do mighty oak trees grow'. Or maybe the flapping of a butterfly's wing that creates a hurricane on the other side of the world.

Huang comments:
19: The firm is advancing and growing
19.1 - His will is to act in the right way
19.2 - Not everyone might be obedient
19.5 - He pursues the way of the middle
8: It is for mutual help

So this looks again to be about long term benefits in my divination practice although a word of caution in line 2, it seems, where having on a one-off basis done something in the right manner, I have to remain watchful as other forces are at work here still and it may be too easy for me to slip back into old ways or divert from the 'middle way' though some other distractions.
 

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