What do I need to be happy?

[Trojina]

to be honest if this was my thread I'd be feeling pretty picked on by now..Just because PGs known to be a young woman its assumed her answer says her happiness lies in relation to a man ?

what year is this 1955 ?

The answer had nothing in particular to do with relationships...it might include relationships of course but there really is nothing in 55.2.3 that says this is all about getting the right man

The right man as the key to a womans happiness is a myth i thought died about 1975...except in pop songs ? yes of course its an imprtant part of a young womans life but she didn't ask about that in particular here...and I wonder if she had been a man asking she would have been answered this way

Luckily its not my thread and PG seems to be taking it all in good spirit...she has been takingit in good spirit so why keep picking on her


BTW edited to add I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular but I'm a bit dismayed at what I feel is a bit of sexist attitude here. Hooking up with a member of the opposite sex does not solve all lifes problems for women or for men...we take ourselves in to relationship with us...we can never escape that self and in the end its our relationship with that self that finds us happiness or not

 

[precision grace]

Thank you for that Trojan, I must admit I have been feeling a bit wtf?! about some of the responses to this thread, especially as my initial intention was really to provoke a bit of a philosophical debate on the nature of happiness within the context of conversation with Yi.

As the comments rolled in, it then intrigued me that some of them took such a definite slant towards a relationship oriented reading, with some of them crossing my personal boundaries (but that is a risk one runs in an open forum which is why I haven't made more of an issue and also I am sure I am occasionally guilty of the similar transgressions).

I am still very intrigued as to why there seems such a polarity over how this hexagram combination is interpreted and would really like to know whether that's purely a consequence of the commentator's personal opinion on my personal situation or if they really would have interpreted it the same way if I was, indeed, a man.

BTW, thank you so much for that young woman comment, I am deeply flattered, even if the 'young' part no longer applies

 

[arabella]

Thank you for that Trojan, I must admit I have been feeling a bit wtf?! about some of the responses to this thread, especially as my initial intention was really to provoke a bit of a philosophical debate on the nature of happiness within the context of conversation with Yi.

As the comments rolled in, it then intrigued me that some of them took such a definite slant towards a relationship oriented reading, with some of them crossing my personal boundaries (but that is a risk one runs in an open forum which is why I haven't made more of an issue and also I am sure I am occasionally guilty of the similar transgressions).

I am still very intrigued as to why there seems such a polarity over how this hexagram combination is interpreted and would really like to know whether that's purely a consequence of the commentator's personal opinion on my personal situation or if they really would have interpreted it the same way if I was, indeed, a man.

BTW, thank you so much for that young woman comment, I am deeply flattered, even if the 'young' part no longer applies

Agreeing with Trojan and think that you can get more specific if you wish -- YOU personally can -- about what these lines may mean -- whether about relationships or something else. But otherwise, I'll stick with what I'd said in the first place that this casting is indicative of a spirit for going forward and a new lease on life. The new spirit is in an atitude of making the most of everything in life and of every association. You have the power to magnestise change and rally others as well. You have to capacity for so much -- even with a "broken" right arm. Many adversities are imagined and those that are real you can overcome with enthusiasm and foresight. You've discovered a winning equation when you adopted the spirit of the Elizabeth/Lavalamp conversation. Well done you!

 

[Lavalamp]

Well Trojan, the Yi goes back a lot further than 1955...

Look, I take this reading to mean the Yi thinks very highly of Precision Grace. It does not tell her she need to learn to keep her heart still, it does not blame her in any way, or tell her she needs more spiritual discipline or self reliance, it does not tell her she needs to shed useless dependencies, The Yi, by omission, says she is a person that has her self directed personal character house in order. Certainly the Yi would never advise co-dependence, certainly it feels that for PG this is not an issue.

That having been said - by not saying that - what among the "Many Things" is standing between her and happiness? I read the lines to say she's been hurt in relationships, and deserves better, deserves to be loved.

I am sorry if this comes off as being overly personal Precision Grace. When I did your "What is this question I cannot think of" reading it made me cry. I saw a very together person doing all she could to be a whole person, one so advanced she can still her heart to the point where she can put her ego aside - even to where her own needs disappear. But does not the Yi advice that asceticism which is too strict suffocates the heart? Is it now too Bourgeois to say that Love requires an "other?"

But perhaps I am projecting my own life into the matter. I can say from personal experience that living from your heart can be very painful, but this is what i have been trying to do, I have committed to take that path. Certainly it improved my creative output 20 fold when I started to live that way, and my inner voice started to speak to me again, and the dreams came back.

But as they say, your mileage may vary.

 

[precision grace]

you definitely weren't the one taking liberties with my personal space, lavalamp and thank you for your participation (and I thank EVERYONE for their participation however perplexed I may still be over some of the comments).

I think, as I said before, that you have a very intuitive grasp of Yi and you've certainly been right before as far as my readings are concerned (I am sorry my reading made you cry, but it probably isn't as bad as it may seem. Or maybe it is, but I am so used to it, it just seems normal.)

It is fascinating to me that you suggest your reading came about as a result of looking at things Yi wasn't saying. It's stuff like that which make threads like these totally worth the occasional bout of conflict in personal ways of expression. Thanks for showing me another way to look at Yi, lavalamp. So, what would make You happy?

 

[precision grace]

PS. I hope nobody feels slighted, overlooked or whatever if I haven't addressed their post or point directly. This thread has been rather overwhelming and I also didn't want to be all over it, answering each post with one of my own, so, just want you to know, I am thinking about everything everyone said although it would be really cool if we didn't talk about me the Whole time.

 

[dancing white ferret]

Don't you want somebody to love
Don't you need somebody to love
Wouldn't you love somebody to love
You better find somebody to love

:hugs::hugs::hugs:

Don't you love that song... Good ol' Jefferson Aeroplane. Any other 60's 70"s music fans out there. I suspect Lavalamp is a Cat Stevens fan, or should I say Yusef Islam? I thought he went back to being called Cat Stevens... Eh... Whatever, you know who I mean? This particular part of the lyrics comes to mind here... Please, don't read to much into it, I don't know why exactly... I hope that the "WTF" feeling subsides soon, and hope I did not contribute to it... Apologies if I did. And I think this is a great reading, one I would have liked to get, if it indeed does have to do with relationships... If it does, I think it is just confirming that you do indeed deserve, and are ready for, a good companion
Here is a link to the very funny Jim Carrey rendition of Somebody to Love from the Cable Guy... I can't even look at Jim without laughing.. Hope it gives you a good laugh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm39JLKgwJQ&feature=fvst

 

[dancing white ferret]

Oh sorry... I guess we were writing at the same time... BTW, love the new avatar Lavalamp...

 

[Lavalamp]

Well the Yi has a presumption of natural order built in. One thing follows another. If you don't have it together as an individual, it's not going to tell you you need to partner. If your relationship is not a healthy one, it will tell you to work on yourself, or possibly to move on.

It takes a while to know what the Yi _could_ have said to someone, that's just years with the book. But when the Yi says you need a partner, it means (among other things) you have passed the standard it expects for individual self development. And you know, there are times in life when that isn't an easy thing to do, sometimes we really aren't ready for a number of reasons. But the Yi says you are ready PG. Congratulations.

So here is your chance to practice interpreting negative space in a reading.
I asked "What do I need to be happy?" and I got 47 unchanging, Oppression (Exhaustion.)
So how would you read that?

 

[ginnie]

Thank you lavalamp but where did you get a man in this? neither 55 nor 54 are about partnerships, quite the opposite, I'd have thought.

I have a couple of thoughts on 55.3. In a way, it's the line of being retired.

One has broken one's arm, or one has lost one's right arm -- and so the line signifies not being able to do anything productive in the world.

Some say this condition is permanent and others imply that it will pass.

Anyway, this brings about a period of doing nothing -- in that fecund darkness at the core of 55's eclipses.

Since you yourself would be doing nothing, that brings about the need for a servant, partner, or helpers of some kind.

Voila -- that's where "the man" comes from ...

Whenever I've known 55.3 people, they have always been connected to someone else who was bringing in the bread and carrying the packages -- a brighter, lighter spirit, perhaps.

What I personally need to be happy is 56.2. What I have is 56.4, which is basically the same thing except "he laments there is no joy in his heart." And why don't I have joy in my heart? According to Yi, because I am always divining too much ... Well, it's a natural tendency to fall into, but I'm trying to keep myself reined in.

 

[precision grace]

Awesome. But I really don't think I would know how to do this looking at the not-said things lavalamp, I've only just heard about it!

For your unchanging 47, well, dunno, it seems blindingly simple to me: drain the pool, clean out the debris and start again with fresh water.

I can see why my reading made you cry - you are in the same position. Or similar. So to be happy - you need to maintain your inner light no matter what the outer circumstances. Don't allow the World or People to break your spirit, in other words.

In more practical terms, I think this may be advising you to possibly get the hell out of Dodge and start afresh somewhere new.

My apologies if any/all of this is widely off mark.

 

[arabella]

PS. I hope nobody feels slighted, overlooked or whatever if I haven't addressed their post or point directly. This thread has been rather overwhelming and I also didn't want to be all over it, answering each post with one of my own, so, just want you to know, I am thinking about everything everyone said although it would be really cool if we didn't talk about me the Whole time.

The thing that is clear to me in this thread is that there are two threads. One is reading the Yi Ching for an individual in relation to this and all of her previous posts, where specific advice is given. And one is reading the Yi Ching in its own right and saying there is nothing about relationships in Hexagram 55.2.3 -- with which I would heartily agree. I guess you will have to sort that out when you've recovered and file the remarks of those who are trying to advise you on your social life from what Hexagram 55.2.3 would say to anyone in an anonymous situation where they are asking guidance on happiness in life.

I don't think either approach is necessarily superior in relation to the very open invitation you gave to offer advice, but people who sympathised trying to help you with something concrete would be the reason you ended up as the subject of the casting. Lots of good ideas from both points of view. There's much offered to think about on this thread. Seems it was a great success.

 

[precision grace]

I have a couple of thoughts on 55.3. In a way, it's the line of being retired. Or the height of incompetence.

One has broken one's arm, or one has lost one's right arm -- and so the line signifies not being able to do anything productive in the world.

Some say this condition is permanent and others imply that it will pass.

Anyway, this brings about a period of doing nothing -- in that fecund darkness at the core of 55's eclipses.

Since you yourself would be doing nothing, that brings about the need for a servant, partner, or helpers of some kind.

Voila -- that's where "the man" comes from ...

Whenever I've known 55.3 people, they have always been connected to someone else who was bringing in the bread, since they had sort of lain down their arms and that was that.

heh, I need a man to take care of me because I will never be able to provide for myself?

This is just getting better.. I don't think I could cope with being a kept woman. I've already taken more charity than my karma can cope with

although I would LOVE to retire ..as in have enough money to spend my time and energy on things that interest me regardless of how much money they bring in.

I could win the lottery...would that qualify as a 'man' taking care of me?

 

[precision grace]

The thing that is clear to me in this thread is that there are two threads. One is reading the Yi Ching for an individual in relation to this and all of her previous posts, where specific advice is given. And one is reading the Yi Ching in its own right and saying there is nothing about relationships in Hexagram 55.2.3 -- with which I would heartily agree. I guess you will have to sort that out when you've recovered and file the remarks of those who are trying to advise you on your social life from what Hexagram 55.2.3 would say to anyone in an anonymous situation where they are asking guidance on happiness in life.

I don't think either approach is necessarily superior in relation to the very open invitation you gave to offer advice, but people who sympathised trying to help you with something concrete would be the reason you ended up as the subject of the casting. Lots of good ideas from both points of view. There's much offered to think about on this thread. Seems it was a great success.

yes, you are definitely right arabella (when are you not?! lol) but right now, it gives me a headache trying to think about it all at once. It's almost like work - I've just got away from having to think about how to classify information so that it's not repeated needlessly, involving so many complex groupings that in comparison, frankly, an air traffic controller probably has an easier time of it. I just cannot try proper analysis on this thread just yet. In the meantime, they are not letting up with the man thing! I mean, it's not like there is a line of them outside my door and I am being all awkward and refusing to choose.

 

[Lavalamp]

I have a couple of thoughts on 55.3. In a way, it's the line of being retired.

One has broken one's arm, or one has lost one's right arm -- and so the line signifies not being able to do anything productive in the world.

Yes. But also traditional commentary interprets this as the subject "being" the right arm - the Prince at the Emperor's right hand unable to influence him, and because his light is so eclipsed many inferior persons are able to push themselves forward. And as a result, the Prince's right hand is also as if broken. To have one's "light" in a personal relationship eclipsed, to be put aside and ignored as unneeded as every other meaningless option enjoys the interest of the ruler, the devastating effects this has on the public lives of both Prince and the Ruler - ouch.

Why people don't see this as a relationship related line makes zero sense to me.

 

[precision grace]

Yes. But also traditional commentary interprets this as the subject "being" the right arm - the Prince at the Emperor's right hand unable to influence him, and because his light is so eclipsed many inferior persons are able to push themselves forward. And as a result, the Prince's right hand is also as if broken. To have one's "light" in a personal relationship eclipsed, to be put aside and ignored as unneeded as every other meaningless option enjoys the interest of the ruler, the devastating effects this has on the public lives of both Prince and the Ruler - ouch.

Why people don't see this as a relationship related line makes zero sense to me.

Ahh. Well, it's maybe because we all view our partners or the idea of our partners - differently. To see this is a relationship line would imply (to me) that the subject (being the right, broken arm) is somehow an appendage of their partner (the Prince/Emperor whatevs). I never thought of my partners as my appendages, although they may have thought about me that way.

You know that game where you have to imagine you are walking through a forest or on a beach or whatever and then this that and the other pops up and you have to describe it and it's all somehow an allegory and represents how you view important things in your life like your life path and sex and money and your partner?

Well, in the one where you are supposed to describe the horse - I never rode the horse. When asked - well, what would you do with it other than ride it, I'd said: "dunno, if it wants to come along, it can, but I am not getting on that thing"

 

[Lavalamp]

Appendage? Hmm. My musical instruments are an extension of myself, and they change as my soul is invested in them. And in my dreams, my white winged horse and I flew over green postage stamp fields, over the acres and miles....

Rom 4: "Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. "

Anyway whatever our perspective is, the traditional commentaries use the analogy of "being as the right hand of" the ruler. As in Western history the King had his "Hand." It does seem a bit less than an equal relationship, but maybe there was an age gap.

 

[Trojina]

Anyway whatever our perspective is, the traditional commentaries use the analogy of "being as the right hand of" the ruler. As in Western history the King had his "Hand." It does seem a bit less than an equal relationship, but maybe there was an age gap.

When you say "traditional commentaries" whose are you speaking of ? Wilhelm ? Wilhelm piled alot of political stuff into his commentaries that simply wasn't there in the I Ching.

 

[Trojina]

Yes. But also traditional commentary interprets this as the subject "being" the right arm - the Prince at the Emperor's right hand unable to influence him, and because his light is so eclipsed many inferior persons are able to push themselves forward. And as a result, the Prince's right hand is also as if broken. To have one's "light" in a personal relationship eclipsed, to be put aside and ignored as unneeded as every other meaningless option enjoys the interest of the ruler, the devastating effects this has on the public lives of both Prince and the Ruler - ouch.

Why people don't see this as a relationship related line makes zero sense to me.

Maybe traditional commentary has it wrong and you need to let it go. Wilhelm interprets everything in terms of power relations. There are other commentaries...and a commentary is not the I Ching

you appear to be applying Wilhelm very literally ?

 

[Trojina]

Why people don't see this as a relationship related line makes zero sense to me.

if you don't ask about a relationship its not generally going to be about a relationship is it. You can't make it all about a relationship whatever the question. The lines aren't kind of fixed to one life area in particular.

 

[Trojina]

I'll stop posting in a moment... I mean you are entitled to your view. You obviously have your own relationship with the I Ching and are experienced in using it. I'm just puzzled by your approach sometimes.

 

[Lavalamp]

Well Wilhelm - he lived and breathed China, far more than any Occidental here I imagine. And his commentaries were not produced in a vacuum, he had a Chinese Master. So to dismiss his commentaries completely is to ignore the possibility of an oral tradition's influence on his writing, let alone the scholarly understanding where he had the advantage of a relationship with and a life lived in a cultural environment that a student here with a pile of dictionaries may not have had. And his translation and commentary, by virtue of primacy and ubiquity reside firmly in the collective unconsciousness, in my opinion, based on experience.

Carl Jung on Richard Wilhelm

"He had the gift of being able to listen without bias to the revelations of a foreign mentality, and to accomplish that miracle of empathy which enabled him to make the intellectual treasures of China accessible to Europe....

... In China he had the good fortune to meet a sage of the old school whom the revolution had driven out of the interior. This sage, Lau Nai Suan, introduced him to Chinese yoga philosophy and the psychology of the I Ching. To the collaboration of these two men we owe the edition of the I Ching with its excellent commentary. For the first time this profoundest work of the Orient was introduced to the West in a living and comprehensible fashion. I consider this publication Wilhelm's most important work. Clear and unmistakably Western as his mentality was, in his I Ching commentary he manifested a degree of adaptation to Chinese psychology which is altogether unmatched.

When the last page of the translation was finished and the first printer's proofs were coming in, the old master Lau Nai Suan died. It was as if his work were completed and he had delivered the last message of the old, dying China to Europe. And Wilhelm had been the perfect disciple, a fulfillment of the wish-dream of the sage."

Having defended Wilhelm's honor, I certainly don't think he was perfect. I have asked the Yi "In what perspective would it describe Wilhelm's translation and commentary", and I received 16.3 > 62.

 

[Trojina]

I find his commentaries have little relevance generally though I like his translation

 

[precision grace]

some poignant thoughts on what makes for happiness http://www.inspirationandchai.com/Regrets-of-the-Dying.html

 

[Lavalamp]

Yeah but trojan - Wilhelm worked on the translation and commentaries with a Chinese Master, who taught him Chinese Yoga and the Yi, one of the last of the line. Therefore I find it difficult to believe the commentaries are as flawed as some here think. Without studying under such a master, many spiritual paths in fact would consider a student's claim to initiation, let alone mastery totally illegitimate.

Quite the contrary I think, WIlhelm's works stands out because he has benefit of the oral tradition regarding the Yi. And where he inserts Christian or western examples, I have to believe he did so in consultation with his Master on the subject, Jung says the translation was a collaboration.

 

[Trojina]

Yeah but trojan - Wilhelm worked on the translation and commentaries with a Chinese Master, who taught him Chinese Yoga and the Yi, one of the last of the line. Therefore I find it difficult to believe the commentaries are as flawed as some here think. Without studying under such a master, many spiritual paths in fact would consider a student's claim to initiation, let alone mastery totally illegitimate.

Quite the contrary I think, WIlhelm's works stands out because he has benefit of the oral tradition regarding the Yi. And where he inserts Christian or western examples, I have to believe he did so in consultation with his Master on the subject, Jung says the translation was a collaboration.

I'm no scholar so not best placed to argue...but I have been using the I Ching for a long time and reading these forums a long time so I see Wilhelms commentary against a backdrop of all the other scholarly understandings and access to commentaries we have here such as Brad , Lise and Hilary. Also I have my own, internal commentaries really built upon my own experiences...adhering to Wilhelms commentaries alone now would seem pretty irrelevant and tortuous for the newbie....and for me

Not that I'm saying its of no worth , it is and I do sometimes still refer to his commentaries...but if you look around the forum you'll see other points of view...and scholars who might be able to discuss Wilhelms contribution more effectively than I. Exploring Divination section here is the best place to learn of other POV about Wilhelms work probably....have a read around


I think you will find links to Lise's and Brads work in their signature here

 

[Lavalamp]

Yeah, I've looked at their works and there is a lot of interesting perspective, and I have learned a lot from the experiences of everyone here.

I have lived and worked with minds from the East and the West all my life, and such is the blood flowing in my veins. And just to be able to understand the Oriental mind and way of thinking alone is huge task, let alone applying such a way of thinking to a gigantic body of literature as the Yi. There are many nuances in the Oriental mindset, and sometimes I think approaching the Yi with the Occidental slant many here cannot but have, often a lot gets misunderstood.

And yes, I am aware of the - let's call it "Orthodox" for want of a better word - the "Orthodox" view of the iChing generally held here on this forum. But after due consideration I have to say I do not think such a view nor such an attitude fully appreciates the work of Richard Wilhelm. He was a true disciple of the Yi.

 

[Lavalamp]

Just one example. When WIlhelm's commentary says a line like "breaking his right arm" is the language the Yi uses to describe a breakdown in a relationship with one's "ruler", and being unable to help one's husband, or Parent, or Boss, I hear the voice of Wilhelm's Chinese Master on the Yi so instructing him. So when someone dismisses such an explanation because "I don't think of myself as an appendage to my husband" - well fine and good for you, but that does not mean that the Yi is not using that symbolism to speak.

The question is if the Yi speaks for itself, or we create the meaning of our own inner unconscious. A Master of the Yi would say it is the former, and any other attitude importunate. And it is way too easy to criticize Wilhelm - he's dead and is not here to defend himself.

 

[Trojina]

Just one example. When WIlhelm's commentary says a line like "breaking his right arm" is the language the Yi uses to describe a breakdown in a relationship with one's "ruler", and being unable to help one's husband, or Parent, or Boss, I hear the voice of Wilhelm's Chinese Master on the Yi so instructing him. So when someone dismisses such an explanation because "I don't think of myself as an appendage to my husband" - well fine and good for you, but that does not mean that the Yi is not using that symbolism to speak.

The question is if the Yi speaks for itself, or we create the meaning of our own inner unconscious. A Master of the Yi would say it is the former, and any other attitude importunate. And it is way too easy to criticize Wilhelm - he's dead and is not here to defend himself.

If you break your right arm, you are somewhat disabled. Not entirely but you are handicapped to a degree...perhaps kept from the normal vigour you approach things, your range is limited. The I Ching speaks of an eclipse , its so dark the stars can be seen at noon and the right arm is broken It does not follow from this temporary handicap/blindness/disadvantage that there is someone else in the picture whom we are there to serve or cannot help.

I've just looked and even Wilhelm says in his commnetary on 55.3 "In the sphere of social relationships...." this means......." ie Wilhelm isn't saying it will always be about social relationships at all...hes just saying if the question were in this sphere of socio/political relations this is how it might look. Prior to that he describes the image of an eclipse in his commentary so I'm puzzled as to why you'd think that whatever the question a person asks...even if it involves no other person...that this answer is about serving rulers and such like. Infact in 55.3 theres nothing whatsoever about a 'husband, ruler or boss'..... thats all in Wilhelms commentary where he describes the imagery of the eclipse in terms of political influence. That is not the same thing as the actual words of the I Ching...which taken from Hilarys book are simply "Feng is flooded with darkness, At midday seeing a froth of light. Your right arm broken -not a mistake" so thats what the actual words of the I Ching say...look at anyones actual translation of the actual words of the Yi and I don't think any talk about bosses and so on. Also note Yi says 'this is not a mistake' so its okay...its not a sign of grave error that one cannot take effective action at this time

The image of the eclipse and action during such time of profusion where things cannot be clearly seen may be far more relevant to a querant and I think it is here with PGs question.


Its a little odd IMO to speak of the need to defend Wilhelm....hes hardly being attacked....this is a discussion forum...and readings get discussed too.

And who is this "Master of the Yi" that you speak of....you have mistakenly taken Wilhelms voice as the voice of the Yi. I don't think many would under estimate the immense value of Wilhelms work in bringing the I Ching to the West.....but his isn't the final word on understanding the Yi.....if you think it is are you really "on the road to find out" as it says in your 'location' or are you 'already there' with no where else to go ?

 

[precision grace]

ah yes, thank you Trojan. I've been thinking those same thoughts all along but am completely unable to externalise them in such a precise and elegant fashion as you just did.

I reckon our lovely Lavalamp has over-identified himself with something in this scenario. I cannot account for the weirdness in any other way.