what's the difference between 41 and 33?

[dobro p]

What's the difference between 41 and 33? This is timely, perhaps, cuz 33's being discussed in another thread. 33 is about withdrawing, about pulling out, and reducing involvement in something. 41 is about reduction, diminishing, and sacrifice. So how do you see the difference between the two? Is 41 a type of 33? Or is it the other way round? Or are they completely different?

 

[cesca]

What's the difference between 41 and 33? This is timely, perhaps, cuz 33's being discussed in another thread. 33 is about withdrawing, about pulling out, and reducing involvement in something. 41 is about reduction, diminishing, and sacrifice. So how do you see the difference between the two? Is 41 a type of 33? Or is it the other way round? Or are they completely different?

I see them as similar, but different: 33 being basically about knowing when to pull back, desist from some action or course of action, 41 being more about recognizing an opportunity to lose something that you don't need, and that is possibly even hindering you.

Cesca

 

[mudpie]

Interesting question.

33 is about retreat. you retire from a course of action, or a lifestyle because it is time to go. BUt you could retire fat and happy.

41 is about simplifying, making sacred. Like throwing out what you dont need, or making a priority come first.

True Love is but a humble, low-born thing,
And hath its food served up in earthen ware;
It is a thing to walk with, hand in hand,
Through the everydayness of this workday world,
Baring its tender feet to every flint,
Yet letting not one heart-beat go astray
From Beauty's law of plainness and content;
A simple, fireside thing, whose quiet smile
Can warm earth's poorest hovel to a home;
James Russell Lowell

 

[my_key]

33- Retiring.
The realising person distances small people.
This is actions on a physical front. You walk away from a situation giving you grief. Tactical withdrawal based on choice. He who turns and runs away lives to fight another day.

41-Diminishing
The realising person curbs anger and restrains the passions.
This acts more on an emotional basis. Allows you to let go of things so that you have an opportunity/ chance to grow.

Mike

 

[dobro p]

So, 33's more about pulling out, and 41's more about losing or giving up something?

 

[hilary]

Pretty much, I think. You might actually Retreat from a situation in order to hold onto something more important - like your independent existence. Whereas in 41 you let go and 'offer up' something you'd probably like to hold onto.

I find it harder to draw clear lines between (aspects of) 36 and (aspects of) 33. Withdraw from a dangerous situation to preserve yourself, perhaps to preserve your identity. Granted, 36 finds ways to survive when unable to retreat (or duty-bound to stay put), but as emotional stances these two have a lot in common.

 

[auriel]

33 is on the usage of the higher facilities to avoid the wear and tear of the daily grind. slotting in, going with the flow, disappearing in the crowd are all ways to effect retreat.
Goals on hold or set in motion, observed without interference to unfold as they will. 36 has an inner purpose strictly kept to, even to the point of voluntary ignorance of ultimate goals. Cyanide pellet under the lip, Hamlet's soliloquy. Subversive subtle and brave the acts and inactions needed to work in a resistant ambiance. 41is more surrendering for common cause. Definitely the common theme is surrender-

 

[dobro p]

Pretty much, I think. You might actually Retreat from a situation in order to hold onto something more important - like your independent existence. Whereas in 41 you let go and 'offer up' something you'd probably like to hold onto.

I find it harder to draw clear lines between (aspects of) 36 and (aspects of) 33. Withdraw from a dangerous situation to preserve yourself, perhaps to preserve your identity. Granted, 36 finds ways to survive when unable to retreat (or duty-bound to stay put), but as emotional stances these two have a lot in common.

There's no (stated) chance of getting hurt in the withdrawal of 33, but in 36, light hides out from the very real possibility of injury. In 33, you simply withdraw. This would be like not volunteering at your local Samaritans anymore. But in 36 (as in 36.5) you don't want to be seen to withdraw (in fact, you don't want to be seen at all), you just want to keep your head down so as not to draw dangerous attention to yourself. This would be like working in the vicinity of Hitler or Macbeth or something. I don't see 33 and 36 as emotionally similar, because I think 33 lacks the fear factor of 36.

But I'll tell you, 36 has often made me think that sometimes it's 'light hiding' and sometimes 'light wounding', and I don't know who the particular line refers to. The sixth line is one of the most mysterious. Is line six always a bad guy? You know, sometimes I've drawn it, and the plunge into the earth sometimes seems either a good correction that's required, or even a good thing. Not luciferean (sp?) at all.

 

[auriel]

to live the dangerous deed is heaven, to live comfortably motiveless is heaven too.
it's changing modes that's earthifying

*[hypothesis]line 6 then unites the prior condition with the after effect and presents the framework of vision in a hexagram's context

 

[Trojina]

But I'll tell you, 36 has often made me think that sometimes it's 'light hiding' and sometimes 'light wounding', and I don't know who the particular line refers to. The sixth line is one of the most mysterious. Is line six always a bad guy? You know, sometimes I've drawn it, and the plunge into the earth sometimes seems either a good correction that's required, or even a good thing. Not luciferean (sp?) at all.

Yes 36.6 really is hard to understand - I didn't think it represented the bad guy as such, i thought it meant the wounding power has burnt itself out it can't do any more harm - but I'm not always clear if i have this the right way around because commentaries vary alot and some seem to indicate the dark forces achieve supremacy rather than burn themselves out.
What do you take the 'plunge into the earth' as ?

 

[Trojina]

to live the dangerous deed is heaven, to live comfortably motiveless is heaven too.
it's changing modes that's earthifying

*[hypothesis]line 6 then unites the prior condition with the after effect and presents the framework of vision in a hexagram's context

I wish I understood that Any chance of rephrasing ?

 

[gene]

These hexagrams are written on many levels. The Tai Chi masters, and the eastern masters, speak of "investing in loss." This is partly what hexagram forty one is about. It is about investing in loss. Why would we do this? On many levels. For starters, investing in loss teaches us ultimately how to win by non resistance. This is the same meaning Jesus taught in his message of "if slapped in the right cheek, turn to him the left also." On another level, for our spiritual development, it is necessary to give up the things we are attached to. Each day we must work on giving up. This same story is spoken of by Jesus when he says, "take up your cross and follow me." It is only by sacrifice that eventually we gain, as in line five, "Someone does indeed increase him."

Hexagram 33 has more to do with the sage who retreats from the world to the top of the mountain, a symbol for spiritual upliftment. He retreats from the world below, and the crowd below that would either throng to him or tear him apart. Line five tells us that it is a "friendly retreat." The superior man has a higher goal to work for, as in hexagram 18, line 6. "Does not serve kings and princes, sets himself HIGHER goals." Higher as the top of a mountain, a spiritual retreat.

I realize this is a little too esoteric for many, but bear with me.
Gene

 

[dobro p]

41 and 33 surely apply to the spiritual examples you've given here, and these are probably their highest and best application, but I believe that both hexagrams can equally apply to more mundance matters. You pull out of a pension plan: Hex 33. You resign your position as secretary of your local strata council: Hex 33.

No?

 

[auriel]

*[hypothesis]line 6 then unites the prior condition with the after effect and presents the framework of vision in a hexagram's context

in the first hex, for further example, the top line refers to the prior state - an absolute, dragonian, need for creative action; and to the final state after that action has been taken- one's work cannot be simply arrogated.

the divinatory text and lines make visible the kinks in the cord connecting those two poles

Kindly consider this reply withn the context of the 36th hexagram

 

[dobro p]

in the first hex, for further example, the top line refers to the prior state - an absolute, dragonian, need for creative action; and to the final state after that action has been taken- one's work cannot be simply arrogated.

the divinatory text and lines make visible the kinks in the cord connecting those two poles

Kindly consider this reply withn the context of the 36th hexagram

Sure thing; that I will. But I still won't understand what you're saying. Just cuz you know what you're talking about doesn't mean you can explain it so's others will understand.