...life can be translucent

Menu

Yao Wei or Line Positions

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
Bradford Hatcher in his book states:

“The Zhouyi text embodies several sets of associations to the Six Line Places. Chief among these is the Gua as a map of the Time, from the first stages at the Bottom to the outcome (or past it) at the Top.”

He later give several examples of different sets:

“The Time Of: Line 6: Outcome, Transcendence, Excesses, Retirement, Anticlimax, Denouement Line 5: Manifestation, Mastery, Control, Authority, Achievement, Finesse, Optima Line 4: Practice, Execution, Establishment, Advance with Purpose, Maneuvering Line 3: Immersion, Exposure, Risk, Thorny Details, Transition, Insecurity, Focus Line 2: Internal Development, Scoping, Grouping, Preparation, Small Advances Line 1: Entrance, Beginnings, Potential, Impressions, Explorations, Tentativeness

“Parts of the Body: (There are some exceptions to these) Line 6: Head, Ears, Crown, Topknot, Tongue, Jowls, Horns Line 5: Shoulders, Neck, Arms, Jawbones Line 4: Trunk, Torso, Heart, Belly, Abdomen
Line 3: Thighs, Hips, Loins, Waist, Rump Line 2: Calves, Legs, Knees Line 1: Feet, Toes, Sandals; Hooves, Tail; Ground, Grass, Roots

“People and Positions: (Many exceptions. Wife does not occur at Lines 1, 4 & 6) Line 6: Sage, Climber, Refugee, Retiree, Extremist, Diehard, Elder, Advisor Line 5: Sovereign, Authority, Executor, Leader, Husband, Father; Man at Work Line 4: Chief or Sovereign’s Minister, Officer, Duke, Son, Empowered Delegate Line 3: Lower Official, Subordinate, Subject, Worker, Journeyman, Local Leader Line 2: Assistant, Subordinate, Servant, Mother, Maiden, Woman in the Home Line 1: Newcomer, Apprentice, Innocent, Youth (Lines 1, 2 &3); Common People

“Situations and Suggested Approaches:
Line 6: Line 5: Line 4: Line 3: Line 2: Line 1:
The best time to know when to stop, reflect, wrap up, integrate and enjoy. An obsession, compulsion, or even too much momentum, can be embarrassing. The time bears its fruit. Subsequent decay is still not apparent. A time for the moderation and balance suited to mastery and nobility. The merit shows.
A time of familiarity, if not mastery. Niches are occupied, if not adapted to. Effects of diligence, reliability, talent, skill and effectiveness begin to appear. A time of complexity, details and many responsibilities. Little mastery of the environment yet. Getting a grip or finding the right quantum of boldness.
A time for Zhen: persistence, commitment, loyalty, focus or thoroughness. Situations broaden, some limits are learned, skills and resources are called on. Seeds are planted, embryos grow. Premature action presents problems. A time to prepare the basics and learn: there are many unknowns. Care needed.

“Places in the Four Ba Gua: (Note the relative complexity of the middle Lines) Line 6: Top of Upper Trigram Line 5: Center of Upper Trigram, Top of Upper Hu Ti Line 4: Bottom of Upper Trigram, Center of Upper Hu Ti, Top of Lower Hu Ti Line 3: Top of Lower Trigram, Bottom of Upper Hu Ti, Center of Lower Hu Ti Line 2: Center of Lower Trigram, Bottom of Lower Hu Ti
Line 1: Bottom of Lower Trigram”

Frank Keagan has the same type of set on his site, quoted below:

“Flux Tome Hexagram Line Places:
6th Line Place: Flower, Seed Pod, Top Knot or hairdo of
5th Line Place: Crown or Organization of
4th Line Place: Soul or Heart of
3rd Line Place: Passion or Ego of
2nd Line Place: Structure or Legs of
1st Line Place: Roots or Origin of”

QUESTIONS:
1. It seems to me that all these different sets are metaphors for the time set, as Brad stated in the first quote. That each is a progression from beginning, middle, end (and beyond). And the language of body, people , situation, place, etc are imaginative ways of expressing time. Is this correct? Please clarify.

2. Also, if this is correct, how does it impact an interpretation of the Gua?

3. Is this why certain lines are emphasized in a multi changing line interpretation?

Thank you.
 

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
Also:

4. Is the ruling/governing line determination influenced by these line positions?

Thank you.
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
421
The governing and constituting rulers were a thing that was made up in the Han dynasty by one guy and definitely not a part of the original thinking. In my opinion they are at best a waste of time, and at worst a major distraction. All the lines are important.
 

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
Thank you Bradford.

1. If I disregard governing lines, then do I read all the lines when there is no changing line? I read somewhere that the governing line was read when there were no changing lines.

2. If I read all lines and they are connected to a passage of time regarding the situation, do I look to the one the most connects or read line a story of the situation beginning, middle, end inner and beginning, middle, end outer?

3. Just for confirmation: When there is a changing line, that line is read the the other are disregarded?

Thank you.
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
421
Too many people forget that the individual lines refer back to the original hexagram (ben gua) and don't just stand alone. They each represent an important facet of the general meaning. This is why it's bad to focus on just one line as being representative of the whole. JUst one line skews the general idea. Ergo, I would recommend reading all of the lines in an unchanging gua if the main text doesn't seem to be answering the question, but mainly to get a fuller understanding of the gua itself.
 

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
Thank makes sense for when there is no changing line. I do that now, though I was focusing on the governing line before.

Now when there is a changing line, that line IS most important in the interpretation, correct?
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
421
Now when there is a changing line, that line IS most important in the interpretation, correct?

Yes. But always as a subset of the overall Gua meaning.
Keeping the "woman in power" in mind will inform you
as to who drew the blood in 44.3.
 

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
Thanks.

In the past I would look at W.S. Broadman's simplification of Wilhelm/Baynes The Pocket I Ching first to get a quick read, then to the full W/B. But I am amazed at how much he changed the text. For 44.3 he "simplified" it to:

IMAGE
As the wind encounter all under heaven,
So the wise ruler speaks his commands.

JUDGMENT
The way of inferior men increases
Because superior men lend them power.

44.3
Temptation and painful indecision
Aware of danger, one avoids big mistakes.

He removed the woman completely from the judgment. Thank you.
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
421
The further you get from good translations, based on the Chinese text, the more of the rich meanings you're going to lose. It's just that simple. And I don't even think that the old WB can be called a good translation anymore. The various interpretations can add some perspective of course, but they are no basis at all, and should not even be thought of as a first look recourse.
 

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
Bradford. What three good translations would you recommend to consult to capture the rich meaning of the Chinese text. No need to include yours it is already one of my top choices.
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
421
I would mix it up a little.
I would have the two-volume Richard Kunst dissertation represent the academics, instead of Rutt. I would have Richard Lynn's Classic of Changes represent the traditional Yili school, instead of Wilhelm or Legge. Then it would be a tossup between the translation Cleary did for the Buddhist I Ching and maybe Huang's, if you can stomach him calling himself a master. Unlike many here, I'm not a big fan of Karcher's word-substitution approach. I'd be ready to add three more, if they ever get finished and printed: Harmen's translation, at least ten years away by report, Hilary's version for more advanced students, unhindered by unknowing publishers, and LiSe's character studies.
 

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
What are you classifying the third group (Cleary, Huang) as?
What do you classify Karcher as?

Bradford just so I am clear where you classify your book The Book of Changes: Yijing, Word by Word, is it:

1. Academic
2. Traditional
3. unclassified one above
 

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
What are you classifying the third group (Cleary, Huang) as?
What do you classify Karcher as?

Bradford just so I am clear where you classify your book The Book of Changes: Yijing, Word by Word, is it:

1. Academic
2. Traditional
3. unclassified one above
 

bradford

(deceased)
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
2,626
Reaction score
421
I think I'd simply call all of us translators.
Karcher is a translator too, except he doesn't understand Chinese grammar, or the function of context in Chinese linguistics, and he doesn't believe the text to have any meaning other than what we give it. That isn't to say it isn't quite useful in its own way.
I'm not academic, just maybe a little scowlerly. In the Han the Chinese made the first formulation of a school of eclecticism - the Zajia or Miscellaneous School. Maybe some of us are that.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
110
In the Han the Chinese made the first formulation of a school of eclecticism - the Zajia or Miscellaneous School. Maybe some of us are that.

Amen to that... :D
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
110
BTW, nice to meet you Lloyd. It is always refreshing to meet "real" people here, with real names behind them.
 

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
Just too old to hide. Great meeting everyone here. I avoid using a pen name so I resist the temptation to vent and therefore help myself avoid being rude. Thank you all for your input.
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
110
I've been reading your questions and they look, at least to me, to be very focused into cramming as much interpretive knowledge as possible in a short period of time. You found Marshall's site right away and then Clarity, which is great, and all your questions are informed. Are you fairly new to Yijing studies or is something that you are resuming after a long hiatus?

Brad suggestions are very good. If you can't find Kunst in Google's wilderness, let me know.

BTW, I'm a fan and user of Scrivener too. :D I can't recommend it enough to writers of all stripes.
 

LloydWilliams

visitor
Joined
Jan 31, 2011
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
Luis quote "Are you fairly new to Yijing studies or is something that you are resuming after a long hiatus? "

Luis I started reading the Yijing in 1977 with a Buddhist priest and a group of Daoist. I am resuming after a long hiatus. I came back with the desire to better understand Yi in context of Daosim, Chinese history, and the recent scholarship that takes the text seriously. I started studying Chinese and calligraphy five years ago and interrupted it with a three year tour of North America.

We bought a Prevost entertainer bus and have toured all over the US and Canada for the past three years photographing and enjoying all the beautiful landscapes and wonderful people we meet along the way. WE have blogged about our adventures at http://prevost.wordpress.com and we are ending our tour in March and selling the bus and returning to Nova Scotia to settle down and spend more time with family and friends. We will still travel but for shorter times. Later this year we will be heading to Ireland, England, France, and The Netherlands for several weeks.

I believe I found Kunst on Abe, but will keep you in mind if it falls through. I would like to translate a personal copy of Yijing that I can have printed about the size of a Moleskine. So I work a little on it everyday. The resources here and on the web are outstanding.

I am a beta tester for Keith and Scrivener since before 1.0. It is the best writing environment that exist today and I have tried all of them. My wife is a screen writer and she loves the integration with Final Draft. I am working on a novel currently and it hold any an all research. Keith is such a great guy I hope Scrivener takes over the writing world. With the Windows version out now and iPad in development he has a good shot.

Well this is probably more than anyone wants to know about me. Thank you for asking.
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top