22.2 - a beautiful beard

diamanda · Jan 16, 2017

In Greek there are some expressions which involve hairs and beard, and mean lies/nonsense.
If I translate word for word, it would be something like this:

"What he told me was a beard" (= what he told me was a lie).
"He told me beards" (= he told me lies).
"I believe in aliens" - "Hairs!" (= nonsense)

Do you have anything similar in your language, i.e. a normal word, which can also mean "lies"?
Also, do hairs/beard have any other, metaphorical meaning in your language?

I've already asked a few friends (German, Norwegian, French, Italian, Chinese, Czech, Hebrew, Portuguese) and I'm awaiting their replies. I'd be very interested to hear about any other languages!

Olga Super Star · Jan 17, 2017

In Italian beard means boring

What a beard! = how boring this is!
beardy = boring and long (because it takes time for a beard to grow I guess)

a lie=
a pile of drying hay (after it's been cut)
a ball
a fairy tale (old)

Are you interested in moustache too?

diamanda · Jan 17, 2017

Thanks Olga! So the Italians focus more on the length of time it takes to grow one, great.
In the Greek sense I guess that a beard covers the face (lie), and hairs are small thus insubstantial (nonsense).

The character for beard in line 2.2 is 須.
It's translated as "beard" or "hair on head".
Moustache is a bit too 'narrow' maybe, so I think let's best leave it out.

My purpose here is to see what connotations hair(s) and beard(s) have around the world, if any.

rosada · Jan 17, 2017

Here in the United States a "beard" can mean someone who is pretending to be the escort. Thus if a woman, Jill, is having an affair with a married man, Joe, she might arrange to "bump into him" at a restaurant while she is with Jim, who is the beard. The three of them then sit down together and anyone seeing them would assume Jill is out on a date with Jim but actually she is with Joe.

Trojina · Jan 17, 2017

olga said:
In Italian beard means boring

What a beard! = how boring this is!
beardy = boring and long (because it takes time for a beard to grow I guess)

a lie=
a pile of drying hay (after it's been cut)
a ball
a fairy tale (old)

Are you interested in moustache too?

I think in the UK people used to be referred to as 'beards' to describe a kind of person...possibly because the tutors on Open University on TV (and in academia in the 60s) all used to have beards so it would refer to someone earnest in a learned pedantic kind of way. I could be wrong because that's something I remember from years ago. I don't think I ever hear someone described as a 'beard' these days. These days of course it is fashionable to have a beard here so it's all changed.

diamanda · Jan 17, 2017

Thanks Rosada, I find this story very funny (I guess because I'm not used to this particular use of "beard").

Thanks Trojina too, it would make sense if scholars were called 'beards' back then, since we've all seen how in old photos the vast majority of them were bearded. Who knows what the people of the future will be thinking about the current trend.

Other feedback I've received from friends so far:

Norwegian: no slang or colloquialisms for lies / no odd use of the word beard.
Portuguese: 'tanga' (swimsuit) means lies / no odd use of the word beard.
German: no slang or colloquialisms for lies / no odd use of the word beard.
Czech: a word translating as "cow-ishness" means rubbish or nonsense / no odd use of the word beard.
Italian (perhaps different Italian region): a colloquial word for lies is 'female buffalo' / nothing for beard.

Olga Super Star · Jan 17, 2017

diamanda said:
Italian (perhaps different Italian region): a colloquial word for lies is 'female buffalo' / nothing for beard.

Mmh no, you need to check your Italian sources I'm afraid

"Female buffalo" does not mean "lie".

It can be used to indicate a piece of news spread out on purpose to mislead the masses and sold as true but soon discovered it is not.
Ex: if I spread around the news that Madonna the popstar is dead, but after two hours her agent says she's alive, that was a "bufala" that everybody believed.

Or it can be used to mislead the masses on something lacking scientific evidence. Ex if I say that small potatoes cause cancer that's a bufala if I don't provide evidence. It's stuff people make it up on the internet and it's really huge stuff, stuff you can hardly believe or you're soon going to find the truth about.

A lie is different, it is said to conceal something and if you say it you don't expect to be found out. And if I find out you've told a lie I'm gonna use one of the words I've provided, not bufala for sure.

Oh here it is:
a lie is personal, you know where it comes from
a bufala is something going round but you don't know who started it

diamanda · Jan 17, 2017

Olga thanks for clarifying this with examples, and for making the distinction between a personal lie and 'fake news'.

Some interesting things I read online about bears:

Ancient India: beards symbolised dignity and wisdom.
A tribe in the Pacific Northwest who sport facial hair to show and test their manliness.
A number of studies have suggested that both men and women perceive men with beards as older, stronger and more aggressive than others. And dominant men can get more mating opportunities by intimidating rivals to stand aside.
In the Middle Ages the beard was a sign of a virility and honour.

And specifically about China and Ancient China:

Confucius says (really!): "身體髮膚，受之父母，不敢毀傷，孝之始也". i.e. It is a filial obligation to not hurt one's own body (including hair) because it is given by one's parents. So probably since the time Confucianism became the official state ideology in the Han Dynasty till the Ming Dynasty, people do not cut their hair (supposedly some trimming for tidiness is acceptable). And even before that, not having a beard were considered a weakness (劉備 was ridiculed by 張裕 in 《三國志．周群傳》 for having no facial hair). During the Qing Dynasty Han people were ordered to follow Manchurian style and cut their front hair. This was considered so barbaric that rebellions were rallied under the reason of opposing it, followed by oppression and many many people getting killed because of their hair style. In modern times people do not put much significance in cutting hair like before, and it is done for hygiene and beauty reasons.
Facial hair in men is the image of masculinity in the American-European culture and it really compliments the manliness of a true gentleman. Asian men, however, cannot grow facial hair for many different reasons. First,in China, facial hair shows that a man is old and wise so elders are most likely to have facial hair. Second, facial hair in middle age men can sometimes represent 'suspicious' because somehow in our Asian mindset. This is why facial hair is not popular in China.

Olga Super Star · Jan 17, 2017

Fake news, that's it!

But apart from the meanings 'beard' has all over the world, what do you think about 22.2 line?

diamanda · Jan 17, 2017

I see line 22.2 as someone paying attention to their external appearance only - the emphasis is on what's covering your face (or head/hair). It's like someone wanting to use their superficial charms so as to go out into the world (26) and woo it by means of good-looks. How do you see it?

Olga Super Star · Jan 17, 2017

interesting
a bit sad then 'cos I got this line the other day about a theatre project I would like to develop

Since it says "making your hair beautiful" I thought it meant working on it with dedication"

rosada · Jan 17, 2017

I just googled beard, definition, and learned that "the beard" can also mean someone posing as a a gay person's partner to hide the fact that person is homosexual. For example Betty White would appear in public as Liberace's date.

Olga, in regards to a theater project I think this line could be seen as a positive omen as theater is all about creating a beautiful illusion.

diamanda · Jan 17, 2017

rosada said:
Olga, in regards to a theater project I think this line could be seen as a positive omen as theater is all about creating a beautiful illusion.

I agree with rosada. Theatre is about putting on a 'mask' and pretending to be someone else, so since you're going to apply a beautiful 'mask' it means a beautiful performance then. And resulting 26 is a great omen for public appearances.

Olga Super Star · Jan 17, 2017

Oh really?
I don't want to steal this beard thread, but I actually also got line 6 (white beauty, no mistake) so it turns into 11, not 26

Anyway I have applied for a place to do it, I'll see if I get selected and get the chance to do it.
It would be the first little thing written by me and performed just by myself. Scary.

:hide:

diamanda · Jan 18, 2017

More feedback I received:

Hebrew:
Nothing relevant in Hebrew, but worth noting that "the Hebrew word for beard (zakan) comes from the same root as the word for an old person (zaken)".

Chinese:
Beard symbolizes maturity. Slang: the mouth has no hair (= work is unreliable). It means that young people (who have not grown beard yet) cannot be trusted with important tasks.
Hair symbolizes light and tiny things. Slang: three thousand kilograms (vs.) one hair. It means ‘in the nick of time’.
Confucius said: Skin and hair are given by the parents and cannot get any scratches. This is the beginning of filial conducts.
Liar: the kid sheepherder (who repeatedly lied and called for help. He was killed by the wolf after people won’t believe him).
[courtesy of Tuck Chang]

Beards aside, I find it astonishing that one of Aesop's fables (Ancient Greece circa 500BC) also exists in Chinese culture (in English it's called the Boy Who Cried Wolf).

I am hoping to draw some sort of conclusion at the end of all this liguistic input, or if anyone already has some conclusions please share!

I would also appreciate some Danish and Spanish linguistic input - Svenrus..?? Charly..??

moss elk · Jan 18, 2017

A mature/old/ancient man may have a beard while a young man/child may not.

I think 22.2 is about showing off (22) ones maturity/accumulation of experience. (26).
example:
Wearing a suit to a job interview, instead of a t-shirt.

Olga Super Star · Jan 19, 2017

Has showing off a negative connotation?

moss elk · Jan 19, 2017

olga said:
Has showing off a negative connotation?

No, not necessarily,
But, Sometimes, yes.
hence the warning in the image.
(don't dare try to execute justice when you are looking at the seeming of things)
22 is more about the seeming or appearance of things rather than truth or essence. Art and theatre have much 22 in them, and good art has substance or teachings inside.
(and yes, the term 'Show-off' is for a person who has the annoying habit of telling everyone how great they are, or trying to make others jealous of their ability)

diamanda · Jan 20, 2017

So, very unsurprisingly, “beard” predominantly symbolises:
-- masculinity / strength / agreessiveness
-- dignity and wisdom / maturity / old age

It means nothing else metaphorically or idiomatically in most languages I got feedback about (Norwegian, Portuguese, German, Czech, Italian, French, Hebrew, Chinese). It can mean “lies/nonsense” in Greek, “boring” in Italian, “someone pretending to be a partner” in the US, and “academics” in the UK.

Since nothing sensational came out of this little linguistic experiment, there’s no conclusion!

charly · Jan 21, 2017

diamanda said:
So, very unsurprisingly, “beard” predominantly symbolises:
-- masculinity / strength / agreessiveness
-- dignity and wisdom / maturity / old age

It means nothing else metaphorically or idiomatically in most languages I got feedback about (Norwegian, Portuguese, German, Czech, Italian, French, Hebrew, Chinese). It can mean “lies/nonsense” in Greek, “boring” in Italian, “someone pretending to be a partner” in the US, and “academics” in the UK.

Since nothing sensational came out of this little linguistic experiment, there’s no conclusion!

Dear Diamanda:

I trust in cross culture meanings. don't despair.
I believe that there are two problems is H.22.2 the meaning of the character translated ADORN / ADORNMENT and the character translated BEARD.

In the first the sense of merely decorative cannot be unique, some attibrutes adorn one's character or personality. Maybe it would be better to translate it HONOR / HONORING

In the second charater BEARD belongs to a more complex character, the

equinox · Jan 21, 2017

In Germany we say "this joke's got a beard", which means, that the joke is old in the sense of being told very often.

Olga Super Star · Jan 30, 2017

little update on 22.2.6>11

rosada said:
Olga, in regards to a theater project I think this line could be seen as a positive omen as theater is all about creating a beautiful illusion.

diamanda said:
I agree with rosada. Theatre is about putting on a 'mask' and pretending to be someone else, so since you're going to apply a beautiful 'mask' it means a beautiful performance then. And resulting 26 is a great omen for public appearances.

Well my theatre project didn't get selected at the place I applied to

But my question was not specifically about this contest

I had asked where I am with this project meaning if it is time to forget about it or to work on it, or I don't know what.
So who knows, I might find other ways to keep it up.

rosada · Jan 30, 2017

Olga, even though your project wasn't selected by the earthly judges, I say 22.2.6 - 11 is telling you the Sky Gods think it was lovely and enjoyed it thoroughly!

Olga Super Star · Jan 30, 2017

Oh My!
I had totally forgot I have a wonderful audience sitting up there in the Sky

I shall just perform for them from now onwards.
Thank you for reminding me
:hug:

tacrab · Jan 30, 2017

What about the converse: "a bald-faced lie"?

diamanda · Jan 31, 2017

tacrab said:
What about the converse: "a bald-faced lie"?

Wow, great 'catch' tacrab, thanks!
Bald-faced (or bare-faced) lie: "an undisguised lie", "easy to see and understand as being bad".
It does sound like the exact opposite of the Greek expression (where the lie is 'embellished' so to speak).

charly said:
Dear Diamanda:
I trust in cross culture meanings. don't despair.
I believe that there are two problems is H.22.2 the meaning of the character translated ADORN / ADORNMENT and the character translated BEARD.
In the first the sense of merely decorative cannot be unique, some attibrutes adorn one's character or personality. Maybe it would be better to translate it HONOR / HONORING
In the second charater BEARD belongs to a more complex character, the

Thanks for this Charly! It seems that there was a copy/paste error, and your last sentence remained unfinished. Could you please add a beard to it at the end?

Trojina · Jan 31, 2017

In the first the sense of merely decorative cannot be unique, some attibrutes adorn one's character or personality. Maybe it would be better to translate it HONOR / HONORING

I was going to throw in a few experiences with this line yesterday, couldn't think how to sum them up but 'honouring' tallies with my experience.

1. A friend, not a terribly close friend but someone I had shared an interest with, became seriously ill.
I felt I wanted to visit her but was unsure about it. People don't always want visitors at such times or perhaps they only want very close friends..or perhaps they might even feel people are being voyeuristic...I don't know but I felt that I wanted to visit to kind of say

I'm not avoiding you (because sometimes people do avoid bereaved/seriously ill)
I'm still here
I care

I asked Yi about visiting and got 22.2.

I emailed her husband saying I'd like to visit but would understand completely if they would prefer me not to come. He said I was welcome so I went and we chatted and had a pleasant time and so on.

I now think the 22.2 was indeed just a way honouring the situation. I felt as if I were presenting myself as simply present/attending/honouring. I wasn't serving any function, I wasn't crucial to anything...I simply wanted to, for want of a better way of putting it, pay my respects. A beard isn't crucial, it's a form... appearance of an observance of a form perhaps such as 'paying respect to'.

I saw her recently and she's fully recovered

I now feel glad I went to see her that time.

2. There was a seminar on which I was invited to but wasn't sure whether to attend. I got 22.2 about going. I went and again it felt like almost paying respect to the situation. Guest speakers from other parts of the country had come and of course they would be more honoured by a greater attendance, more interest, more questions from the audience, including me.

So with these and other experiences my current sense of adorning the beard/hair is that one makes an outward gesture of respect to someone/something through one's outer appearance...just like Moss Elk's example with the suit which is in wikiwing.

Dress codes I think are the equivalent, wearing black to a funeral, wearing a suit to a wedding or an interview...all these are meant to convey that one is acknowledging the situation with respect.

Princeji · Feb 3, 2017

Slightly offensive but here is an example from the united states

In the united states, it is sometimes sometimes said by older teens "Her beard "

charly · Feb 5, 2017

diamanda said:
...
Thanks for this Charly! It seems that there was a copy/paste error, and your last sentence remained unfinished. Could you please add a beard to it at the end?

Dear Diamanda:

I don't use copy/paste except for chinese or for quoting. My hard disk crashed after begining the post.

The character 須 xu1, appears twice in the Changes, it means must, to have to, to wait but here seems to stand for 鬚 xu1 whiskers, whiskers-like, beard, moustache, feelers. In Gui Mei it seems to stand for 嬃 xu1, elder sister. It is the protograph of both, and maybe had all the meanings before the use of the later characters. Actually 須 xu1 has another meanings, among which FIBRE, FIBER, FIBROUS.

In my country FIBRA is used to mean COURAGE, WILL, CHARACTER, SENSIBILITY, FEELINGS.

Based in that use, a translation could be :

賁其須
bi4 qi2 xu1
MAKING HONOR TO ONE'S CHARACTER or FEELINGS
Say behaving accordingly with how is oneself, accordinly with one's will or one's feelings.

Of course, there are many other possibilities.

Wilhelm / Baynes translates 22.2:

«Lends GRACE to the BEARD on his CHIN.»

Schuessler translates xu1:

«Beard of CHIN... This word suvivies in Yue and Min dialects,
elsewhere it has been replaced by hu zi 鬍子»

Schuessler: ABC Dictionary ...

鬍子 means beard, moustache, whiskers, facial hair

More accurate describing the place where the hair grows. But why W/B and Schuessler had the need to specify «on his chin» / «of chin»? Might the 須 beard grow elsewhere? Migh it be a little disreputable?

Maybe it provoke some associations wit, say, PUBIC HAIR? Was it the reason why it was replaced in almost all the regions, except in two minorities? More accuracy, less apt for disreputable puns?

The translation could be:

MAKING HONOR TO ONE´S (PUBIC) HAIR
Behaving accordingly to one's age and development.
If child, behave like a child, if adult, behave like an adult.

... and it applies to both girls and boys.

Or maybe you will prefer something more aseptic, even actually more literal like:

MAKING HONOR TO ONE´S DUTIES
Behaving like one ought to behave. Doing what one must do.
If child, play, if adult, work.

Of course, the first also speak about DUTIES, even maybe HEAVY DUTIES.

I use to prefer GRACE instead of ADORN but for personal reasons and that is another story.

Best wishes!

Charly

P.D.
Ancient characters depicted a HEAD sourrounded by MESSY HAIRS, messy hairs have disreputable associations. To miss one's hairpin is serious in the Changes because what is not said, but thinked.
For HAIR happens someting similar. For example: 毴 is a compound of the characters HAIR + NOT. For Van Gulik this character never existed but he supposes that its phonetic is FEI, for UNICODE CONSORTIUM it exists and its phonetic is BI. Not the same BI of H.22 of course.
Maybe the old characters for 須 depicted a shaman, but shamans are conflictive persons.

Ch.

charly · Feb 5, 2017

heylise said:
BÌ (name of 22): bright, decoration, brilliant, bright, luminous, ornate, to honor, adorning. Pronounced ben1: ardent, brave, energetic, strenuous, to forge ahead, to blossom out, zest. Pronounced fen2: great. Pronounced fen4: defeated. Also in an inscription used for a kind of sacrifice.

I was sitting in the backyard with my books and everything, figuring out the meanings of the hexagrams. Next to me was an Azalea-bush which was on the verge of blossoming. The buds were swollen and looked as if they were loaded with energy. I saw the ideogram - and the buds next to me, and they looked exactly the same.

Then I saw what beauty really is: the energy of life showing itself gloriously. It is a lot more than adornment, it is how life looks. Nobody knows exactly what it is, but we all know how it looks.

Must recognize that LISE said TO HONOR first.
I owe too much to her work.

Ch.

22.2 - a beautiful beard

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