meaning of RElating Hexagram

azzimm · Oct 30, 2018

Hi, Theoretical question- Some people I've read say the hexagram the moving lines change INTO is a picture of the present situation or background. THIS MAKES NO SENSE TO ME because as I understand it, if you get, let's say, 2 moving lines,THEY HAVE TO BE(???) SEQUENTIAL IN TIME, CHRONOLOGICAL one line is going to manifest before the other in time- therefore the relating hexagram logically (??) is the chronological outcome of the moving lines in TIME not present time. for that dont youread the PRE-JUDGEMENT COMMENTRAY TO GET BACKGROUND PICTURE THANKS AZIMM

Trojina · Oct 30, 2018

azzimm said:
Hi, Theoretical question- Some people I've read say the hexagram the moving lines change INTO is a picture of the present situation or background. THIS MAKES NO SENSE TO ME because as I understand it, if you get, let's say, 2 moving lines,THEY HAVE TO BE(???) SEQUENTIAL IN TIME, CHRONOLOGICAL one line is going to manifest before the other in time- therefore the relating hexagram logically (??) is the chronological outcome of the moving lines in TIME not present time. for that dont youread the PRE-JUDGEMENT COMMENTRAY TO GET BACKGROUND PICTURE THANKS AZIMM

1. Are YOU HAVING TROUBLE with your CAPS keys :mischief:

2. Theoretical questions belong in EXPLORING DIVINATION SO THIS NEEDS MOVING

3. You have plenty of answers on other threads that you don't go back to and I wonder if you can actually find them ?

4. There is no need to see the relating hexagram as the future, it does not have to be sequential although if you want to use it that way it is up to you.

Hilary describes how she sees the relating hexagram in this Blog I think I have given you before

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2013/06/01/the-old-resulting-hexagram-conundrum/

In my view both hexagrams are present at the same time, they can be understood fluidly in time.

Actually the preceding blog to that one about the relating hexagram is here

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2011/05/21/why-look-at-the-relating-hexagram/

that is something you need to read

From there

But actually deciding to skip the second hexagram often comes of getting stuck on the idea that it’s a ‘resulting hexagram’ that shows the future. This leads to readings with a supposed internal logic: obey first hexagram, follow advice of lines, reach second hexagram. The logic is incredibly neat, tidy and easily explained – so it probably shouldn’t be a surprise that in real readings with the Yijing, it often makes No Sense Whatsoever.

Follow the advice of the perfectly pleasant line from this perfectly pleasant hexagram and you too can land in this remarkably unpleasant-sounding hole (58.1). Incur this hideous misfortune and then you arrive somewhere good (23.4). In an attempt to keep things straight, you wind up reasoning that if you like the second hexagram, you can reach it by doing what the lines say. Or maybe by not doing what the lines say, if they’re ill-omened. And if you don’t like the second hexagram and wouldn’t want to reach it, maybe you can avoid it by following (or not following) the advice of the lines? And then if the advice of the lines, that either does or doesn’t lead to the ‘resulting’ hexagram, goes in two (or three) opposing directions at once… well, then you might be forgiven for no longer looking at the second hexagram at all.

In the end you choose what works for you but I can assure you the minute you drop the idea that the relating hexagram = 'the future' your readings will make a lot more sense.

There's no point you saying 'it has to be this way' you have to use it in your actual readings to understand

Also as you have many general questions there is a 'Learn' section, a free I Ching course plus the Foundations Course available here.

diamanda · Oct 30, 2018

This thread definitely belongs to Exploring Divination.

Trojina said:
It is nonsensical to take the relating hexagram as 'the future'

It's not 'nonsensical'. The second hexagram has meant 'the future' for the past few thousand years.

Trojina · Oct 30, 2018

Well I've never seen it work. I mean how a person uses it is up to them. I like to use it quite fluidly, the place where I'm asking from, the context, the backdrop which can sometimes include aspects of the future.

It doesn't make sense at all to say for example 58.1 'results in' 47 or that 35.5 'results in' 12. It doesn't work at all IMO and most people here don't use the relating hexagram as the future any more.

One of the biggest gifts this site gave me was that one change in how to use the relating hexagram and that made readings full and meaningful where the little sequential directional thing of 'if you do 35.5 you will end up in 12' really was not.

In the end it's a personal choice what works for you but it certainly makes no sense to say it has to be sequential.

diamanda · Oct 30, 2018

Trojina said:
Well I've never seen it work. I mean how a person uses it is up to them.

Totally agree that it's up to the individual, no objections on this point at all.

However, there's a great logical distance between saying 'I've never seen it work' and saying 'it's nonsensical'. I find it inappropriate to characterise the divinatory tradition of centuries as 'nonsensical'.

Trojina · Oct 30, 2018

However, there's a great logical distance between saying 'I've never seen it work' and saying 'it's nonsensical'. I find it inappropriate to characterise the divinatory tradition of centuries as 'nonsensical'.

I was connecting to what Hilary said in her blog that I linked to here

Have you ever read it ?

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2013/06/01/the-old-resulting-hexagram-conundrum/

Taken from there

This is something I have ranted written about before – the splendid nonsense that’s created when we try to string hexagrams and lines out along a timeline, where the primary hexagram and its lines always cause the relating hexagram. If we just stop doing that, and instead read what we cast – just one six-line figure, one unit of meaning, that can contain the meeting of two hexagrams – then the nonsense evaporates.

I agree with that.

I find it inappropriate to characterise the divinatory tradition of centuries as 'nonsensical'.

how do you mean 'inappropriate' it's my opinion and I'm quite free to express it. Seems weird to say it's 'inapprpriate' I mean well report the post then

Lots of things have been going on for centuries doesn't mean I have to express deference to them does it ?

Anyway feel free to find it inappropriate.

How weird is it that I have posted that blog of Hilary's to help people with the concept of the relating hexagram literally hundreds of times where she talks about the 'splendid nonsense that's created' yet when I use the word you find it 'inappropriate'.

Well I don't know what you want me to do about that other than you just go ahead and find it inappropriate. Maybe you need to write a comment on the blog objecting to the word 'nonsense'.

If it is one's opinion that reading the relating hexagram as 'the future' and only 'the future' produces nonsense then one is free to say so !

diamanda · Oct 30, 2018

Of course I will not report your post. When I said 'inappropriate', I meant that it doesn't sound nice to me to call traditional I Ching divination 'nonsense'. Maybe others find this word ok. If this word is acceptable by the majority here, then maybe we can all start using it to characterise other posters' opinions.

Trojina · Oct 30, 2018

diamanda said:
Of course I will not report your post. When I said 'inappropriate', I meant that it doesn't sound nice to me to call traditional I Ching divination 'nonsense'. Maybe others find this word ok. If this word is acceptable by the majority here, then maybe we can all start using it to characterise other posters' opinions.

Hang on I haven't said anything at all about other posters opinions. I was talking to azzim, not about other posters at all. I said to him,

It is nonsensical to take the relating hexagram as 'the future' = you only have to look,,,as Hilary describes in this Blog I think I have given you before ……….

Elsewhere recently I have seen you categorically tell someone, possibly azzim, that the relating hexagram should be read as the future as if it were a fact so how can you object when I give another view.

But if you are objecting to me expressing that view how come you haven't been objecting to Hilary's blog I frequently link to where she says

This is something I have ranted written about before – the splendid nonsense that’s created when we try to string hexagrams and lines out along a timeline, where the primary hexagram and its lines always cause the relating hexagram. If we just stop doing that, and instead read what we cast – just one six-line figure, one unit of meaning, that can contain the meeting of two hexagrams – then the nonsense evaporates

I've pointed that out several times now - note she uses the word 'nonsense' (you can see that ?) and you don't mind - and this is the blog I frequently post a link to and yet you never objected to her use of the word nonsense .

Your problem is you have taken it that I am referring to you and your method whereas I was just answering azzim and wasn't even talking about you.

Anyway have now removed the sentence so hope the problem is resolved. Have PMd you so PM me if you want me to change anything else.

Lavalamp · Oct 31, 2018

What I learned here - and have found is pretty consistent - is that unless there are 4 or more lines in the casting, the relating hex describes the question I am asking about. Almost all the time.
For example when I cast a question about music, the relating hex is often 16, which means music. Or if I ask about money, the relating hex is often 14 which is about money and wealth. If ask about a legal issue, the relating hex is often 21 which describes the law and judicial action.
So in such cases the relating hex really is not the advice, you read the lines. I have found the relating hex really just describes my question or it's area of life, although there is advice for every situation and every hex.

But if there are 4 or more lines there is a lot of change energy, and I do read the relating hex as a transformation. Then I don't read the lines, there are too many as Ewald says, and I try to read the broader view, one hexagram changing into another hexagram.
I don't get that a lot though. And I'm not as good at reading the Yi that way.
Pocossin used to be pretty good at that.

- LL

moss elk · Oct 31, 2018

People can hold an idea in their head for their entire life, whether it is wrong or right. Societies can do the same for centuries. (anyone remember Leeches and Empires, or Religious conversion by threat of death?) An error oft repeated does not make it true.

Let's look at an answer that comes up often for people that fret, 'oh, should I contact the apple of my eye to see if they want to go out with me?' Then they receive 8.5 (2) the king sends three beaters.. the people are not coerced.

2 is not the future.
2 colors or describes what kind of 8/Union Seeking it is. (one that is very 2-ish, not forced, that allows for escape)

The answer is specific to the situation.
The related hexagram is not the future.
Ask about the likely future, if you want a question about the future.

azzimm said:
As I understand it, if you get, let's say, 2 moving lines,THEY HAVE TO BE(???) SEQUENTIAL IN TIME, CHRONOLOGICAL

While it is true that we humans construct a hexagram within time, from the ground up, that is the end of it.
Don't carry the idea that things will occur in the order that the lines appear. If you do this you will likely miss the meaning of the reading, which is in the particular combination of the two hexagrams.

Trojina · Nov 1, 2018

...and most important I think is to discard the idea of a 'rule' for how one interprets the relating hexagram, unless you are brand new and might need one to begin with. If you have change lines there's two hexagrams present in your reading blending, communing, becoming one another. For me the number of change lines always impacts how I see the relating hexagram. Not to the point of a rule but for example today I cast a reading with 5 change lines and so I see the relating hexagram as coming far more to the fore than if I had cast just one change line where I almost forget the relating hexagram.

So with my reading with 5 change lines I am seeing the relating hexagram as coming forward almost superseding the primary. The primary is so much on the brink with all those change lines that the relating feels far more present or to the fore and in this instance I kind of would see it almost as a future indicator simply because the primary is so near to fully becoming the relating. I never got to that way of seeing it through reading about any rules but through my own reading practise and in the end I think that is how most people who consult regularly come to where they are with the relationship between the primary and the relating.

Now with 5 lines changing some people will read the line that doesn't change. I don't do that but I certainly notice what line doesn't change and wonder about it because it stands out.

Freedda · Nov 1, 2018

I found this PDF article on the internet by Stephen Karcher, titled Journey to the West: C. G. Jung and the Classic of Change. In it he says:

The Primary Figure describes the present situation and its potentials for change. The Relating Figure suggests how the inquirer is related to the situation. It can describe a goal, a feeling tone, an experience, a desire, or a possible outcome.

I think that's a pretty good description of the related hexagram. I would add that sometimes the related hexagram shows how one could be related - and not necessarily how you are related to the situation right now; and that it could be describing an approach - and not necessarily an outcome.

Also, it sometimes seems to offer its advice in 'negative' terms: i.e. 'don't think about the situation this way,' or 'what is being said here is not what you want to do.' Unfortunately, this often gets interpreted as "oh sh-t, the Yi is saying this situation is going to end badly," or "Ms. X does not love me!"

But then again, sometimes the Yi does describe a 'negative' situation - the wagon axle is broken, and you have gotten your butt wet and freezing crossing the river - and that right now might not be the right time to act ... but this is describing one point in time, not something that will necessarily last forever, or that can't be overcome with some planning, patience, and course correction.

As to the line placement, order, associations, etc. - I don't get too caught up with this (at least right now). If I consider it at all, it might be to think of the three lower lines as having to do with one's internal process (feeling, thinking); while the three upper lines have to do with external processes - or how might be in the world. But again, I don't hold these to tightly, especially when they are adding more confusion than clarity.

Best, David

sylvia1ching · Nov 1, 2018

When I started working with the I Ching I began with the basic concept that the 1st Hexagram represents the present situation. The changing lines give you information to "course correct" in order for there to be an outcome that is explained through the 2nd Hexagram. Given that the intent behind asking the Oracle a question is.to get information to how to achieve a favorable, positive, truthful, realistic, avoiding disaster/chaos, character developing outcome.

After 4 years of doing 100s of interpretations, I began to realize that the I Ching has so many more layers. These layers do not always linear but can moves spherical or cylindrical, can move relatively, , they do not always have an obvious time difference where there is a present and future result, ... what I finally came to the conclusion that It is simple...the 1sr Hex addresses the answer with a solution that will require action to address the intent behind the question. The 2nd Hex gives information of what is possible should you do what it takes to change or transform your attitude to achieve what the Inquirer is really seeking. So it could represent a present and/or future situation,chronological or simulataneously.

The results always refer to how the Inquirer is responsible for the change. There may be outside influences but ultimately it is up to the Inquirer to act. It is not that things are happening to the Inquirer but what the Inquirer is willing to do to create a different outcome

Trojina · Nov 2, 2018

After 4 years of doing 100s of interpretations, I began to realize that the I Ching has so many more layers. These layers do not always linear but can moves spherical or cylindrical, can move relatively, , they do not always have an obvious time difference where there is a present and future result,

I like how you describe it

... what I finally came to the conclusion that It is simple...the 1sr Hex addresses the answer with a solution that will require action to address the intent behind the question. The 2nd Hex gives information of what is possible should you do what it takes to change or transform your attitude to achieve what the Inquirer is really seeking. So it could represent a present and/or future situation,chronological or simulataneously.

I don't think all readings are quite so strenuous, requiring that you do something. I think sometimes there are just simple predictions, advice for the moment or sometimes just a representation of a situation. I can't see how the relating hexagram is a picture of what is possible if you follow the advice of the primary since it doesn't make much sense that way. For example supposing someone casts 42.1.4>12 then according to your reckoning if they really pour more in and take the advice in 42 they would end up in a 12 situation

How can 12 be what's possible if one follows the advice of 42.1 4 ? There's many other examples where it just wouldn't make sense to read it that way.

I'm not saying you're wrong because I think it's what works for you but personally I cannot see the relating hexagram as meaning what's possible if you follow the advice of the primary.

sylvia1ching · Nov 3, 2018

Trojina

Thank you for the compliment. The I Ching/Yi is always making me take notice like the guidance of a mentor ..I envision Pat Morita teaching Ralph Macchio to wax-on and wax-off. The purpose of the exercise is not obvious.but it is in process of his education wherrle Ralph Macchio.recognizes it value.

As for the second point is as you pointed out...is also an action, a way of being or result

sylvia1ching · Nov 3, 2018

Trojina

Thank you for the compliment. The I Ching/Yi is always making me take notice like the guidance of a mentor ..I envision Pat Morita teaching Ralph Macchio to wax-on and wax-off. The purpose of the exercise is not obvious.but it is in process of his education wherrle Ralph Macchio.recognizes it value.

As for the second point is as you pointed out...is also an action, a way of being or result

Trojina · Nov 3, 2018

.I envision Pat Morita teaching Ralph Macchio to wax-on and wax-off.

No idea who those people are, had to Google. So they are American actors but what is 'wax-on and wax-off' I wonder ? Hair removal ?

sylvia1ching · Nov 3, 2018

From the movie "Karate Kid", 1984. It is about a kid who wants to be excellent at Karate (Ralph Macchio). He finds a Karate Master (Pat Morita) and before learns even one Karate move the Master gives him chores. The student is baffled and does what he is told with argument or discussion, initially but soon realizes if he wants to learn from the Master he must follow all directions (this is lesson #1 ). One of his chores is washing and waxing a car. The Master gives him his instructions as to how to wax the car (remember listening and following instructions with excellence and without argument). In his lefthamd he holds the wax, moving in clockwise motion puts the wax on (WAX ON). In the righthand he holds a sponge to the remove the wax ,moves in the counter-clockwise motion (WAX OFF) (lesson #2 ) .. Repeating this mantra out loud and making the motions WAX ON, WAX OFF (lesson #3)...WAX ON, WAX OFF...WAX ON, WAX OFF....Eventually the student is learning Karate and one of the first moves is to block side punches. With the use of the mantra and movements of WAX ON, WAX OFF he learns to block (Lesson Learned)

sylvia1ching · Nov 3, 2018

The lessons of WAX ON WAX OFF

From the movie "Karate Kid", 1984. It is about a kid who wants to be excellent at Karate (Ralph Macchio). He finds a Karate Master (Pat Morita) and before learns even one Karate move the Master gives him chores. The student is baffled and does what he is told with argument or discussion, initially but soon realizes if he wants to learn from the Master he must follow all directions (this is lesson #1 ). One of his chores is washing and waxing a car. The Master gives him his instructions as to how to wax the car (remember listening and following instructions with excellence and without argument). In his lefthamd he holds the wax, moving in clockwise motion puts the wax on (WAX ON). In the righthand he holds a sponge to the remove the wax ,moves in the counter-clockwise motion (WAX OFF) (lesson #2 ) .. Repeating this mantra out loud and making the motions WAX ON, WAX OFF (lesson #3)...WAX ON, WAX OFF...WAX ON, WAX OFF....Eventually the student is learning Karate and one of the first moves is to block side punches. With the use of the mantra and movements of WAX ON, WAX OFF he learns to block (Lesson Learned)

moss elk · Nov 3, 2018

Well explained,
Sylvia-San.

The scene reminds me of a few readings where I thought the advice was insane and impossible, that it just could not work.
Then I said to myself, 'OK. this is nuts. But I can't really think of a better solution. I'll try this.'

And then it worked.

sylvia1ching · Nov 3, 2018

My experience too. I have found I must wait, it will come. So I WAX ON, WAX OFF...WAX ON, WAX OFF...WAX ON, WAX OFF..going through the motions then suddenly it clicks and the interpretation is so profound and spot on that receiver of the reading is crying , breaking down, break through then finally joy AND THAT is when I know I have purpose

meaning of RElating Hexagram

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