There is more to your oracle: I have found a third hexagram, describing the change

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 11, 2019

https://i.imgur.com/udXvpSW.jpgDraw a yang line for any lines that change, draw a yin line for any that don't.

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 11, 2019

I can't edit my post, but the image link is: https://i.imgur.com/udXvpSW.jpg

moss elk · Jan 11, 2019

I selected 8.5 (2) at random.
it looks like this:

-- --
--x--
-- --
-- --
-- --
-- --

I followed your instructions,
which generate this (hexagram 8)
-- --
-----
-- --
-- --
-- --
-- --

I don't see any value, do you?

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 11, 2019

Anything that changes by itself will change to Earth. Earth functions as zero. Union + Union = EarthEarth + Union = UnionUnion + Earth = UnionOther combinations are more interesting such as:Exhausting + Union = Relief

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 11, 2019

Your example is the equivalent of 1 + 0 = 1, simultaneously the most and least interesting example!

Trojina · Jan 11, 2019

Philip_Aladdin said:
https://i.imgur.com/udXvpSW.jpgDraw a yang line for any lines that change, draw a yin line for any that don't.

If you put a yang line for any change line and yin line for any that don't then you have the yang change pattern. If you put a yin line for every change line and a yang for any that don't you have the yin change pattern.

Not sure who first came up with this idea, possibly Karcher.

It may be the case you mean something else but I don't know what.

Also this belongs in Exploring Divination since this is not a reading you want to share but your ideas.

moss elk · Jan 11, 2019

I threw coins without a question or intention which generated 24.3 (36)

Following your advice generates 15.

So, what are you saying?

Trojina · Jan 12, 2019

15 is the yang change pattern. 10 is the yin change pattern. So we aĺready know about change patterns.

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 12, 2019

I have posted the more interesting operations I've found in Exploring Divinations, but everyone is extremely resistant to this material so far. I have also invented instantaneous divination devices, one of which is wearable, the other handheld and desktop.I've also found several ways to generate related oracles from an oracle. One method generates 6 of these, then 6 more which are their rotated mirror images. There is also a way to describe a path of change, generating 13 hexagrams per oracleAnd I have found that the Taijitu is hidden within the trigrams if you rearrange them organically, allowing them to rise upward without repeating any. There are two possible ways to achieve this arrangement and both of them reveal a binary taijitu rising up through the sequence: 11101000 for one and 00010111 for the other.I have also rearranged the 64 figures in this organic way, allowing them to effectively arrange themselves. My decision was to put "Already Complete" at number 1. Liberation is 64, Following is 56, Developing is 48, Cauldron is 40, Peace is 32, Great Exceeding is 16, Little Exceeding is 8.

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 12, 2019

Will somebody please teach me how to use line breaks in this forum? The well needs tiling.

hilary · Jan 12, 2019

The well is due a major re-tile this year. Meanwhile, you should be able to get line breaks by changing either
a) your browser - it seems to work OK with Microsoft's (Internet Explorer or Edge)
or
b) your message editor. Visit the settings page and scroll down to 'Message editor interface'. Switch to 'Standard editor', then save changes at the bottom of the page.

It's always interesting to see different people arriving at the same approaches to readings - change patterns, in this case. Interestingly enough, when Karcher first described the idea (and I'm not saying he was necessarily the very first person to do so - just the first place I read it), he described replacing changing lines with yin, creating the yin pattern. He added the yang one you describe later.

Of course the interesting part is not generating related hexagrams, but describing what kind of relationship they have with the original cast and what they mean in readings. You say this one (what I'd call a yang change pattern) 'describes the change'. How do you mean? Can you give an example?

(I've moved this thread to Exploring Divination.)

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 12, 2019

I would say it makes a lot less sense to describe changing lines as yin. I use yang to represent change and yin to represent no change, do you see the logic in this? Yin is receptive and yang is initiative, so yin allows a line position to stay the same while yang causes it to change. I have no answers, only discoveries. Many months ago I asked the oracle on my wrist what this "middle" figure explains, as well as the primary and secondary, and a fourth I draw called the "essence":What is the primary figure?Difficulty > Grace (changing via Traveling)What is the secondary figure?Following > Decreasing (changing via Conflict)What is the "medium" figure?Restricting > Revolution (via Enduring)What is the "essence"?Restricting > Decreasing (via Watching)The essence is obtained by drawing the three figures I've already described and combining them into one by drawing a new figure where any line position which is yang at any point is drawn as yang, and any line position which is only ever yin is drawn as yin. So in order, the "essence" figure for each of the above three oracles would be: What is the primary figure?Difficulty > Grace (changing via Traveling) (Essence: Household)What is the secondary figure?Following > Decreasing (changing via Conflict) (Essence: Conduct)What is the "medium" figure? Restricting > Revolution (via Enduring) (Essence: Eliminating)What is the "essence"?Restricting > Decreasing (via Watching) (Essence: Innermost Sincerity)I appreciate it would be more interesting if I could tell you exactly what these things mean, but unfortunately I can't. These discoveries came to me at a low point in my life, and they came to me by coincidence and inspiration.

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 12, 2019

I also have a rough/working typed notation to describe all of this which could use some improvement: 1---1- < --1-11 > 1-1--1 [1-1-11]

moss elk · Jan 12, 2019

Philip_Aladdin said:
everyone is extremely resistant to this material so far.

That may be because we are mostly interested in meaning as opposed to structure. (and experienced diviners can be skeptical of 'systems', seeing them as unnecessary to comprehension of meaning.)

I'm curious why you said your oracle. Was it just a catchy newspaper headline or does it say something about your relarionship with Yi?

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 13, 2019

I use the word oracle to refer to the result of a divination

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 13, 2019

I would strongly recommend getting used to finding this "Yang Change" hexagram. It only takes a moment and it's a very interesting way to study the relationship between the primary and secondary. It seems as though, if primary and secondary are thought of as cause and effect, then this other figure can be thought of as context. Furthermore, these three figures can be superimposed to make a single hexagram. For example, when Increasing meets Observing the result is Restricting - this perhaps something like: paying attention to the extremes of something highlights what its limits are. Combining all three of these together makes Inner Sincerity or Inner Truth, describing the entire process: getting to the bottom of something.

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 13, 2019

The meaning isn't always readily apparent, but that's because this is a massive compendium of wisdom and we're limited individuals. I would recommend exploring this further by applying the idea to your previously recorded divinations, until you find some relationships which resonate. As with everything else in the I Ching, it's not every single time that an "a-ha" moment of understanding comes. I think of these things as high-resolution blurs.

moss elk · Jan 13, 2019

Philip_Aladdin said:
I would recommend exploring this further by applying the idea to your previously recorded divinations, until you find some relationships which resonate.

If I already comprehend the meaning of my previous recorded casts (which I do), what would be the purpose of this exercise?

hilary · Jan 13, 2019

Moss Elk said:
If I already comprehend the meaning of my previous recorded casts (which I do), what would be the purpose of this exercise?

1) Understanding things you previously missed about your recorded casts.
2) Learning things with benefit of hindsight about how readings work that will help you understand future readings.

Philip_Aladdin said:
I would strongly recommend getting used to finding this "Yang Change" hexagram. It only takes a moment and it's a very interesting way to study the relationship between the primary and secondary. It seems as though, if primary and secondary are thought of as cause and effect, then this other figure can be thought of as context.

Ah... thank you... I was hoping you would say more about what it means for you. For me it's different - the cast and 'secondary' hexagrams are normally not 'cause and effect', but a single statement that answers the question. I tend to see the yang pattern as the querent's individual 'way in' to the reading - it expresses what's active for them in their question, and often gives some insight into a question behind the question. The gist of how I see change patterns is here:
https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/interpreting-the-i-ching/hexagrams-of-change/
(More detail in Change Circle.)

Furthermore, these three figures can be superimposed to make a single hexagram. For example, when Increasing meets Observing the result is Restricting - this perhaps something like: paying attention to the extremes of something highlights what its limits are. Combining all three of these together makes Inner Sincerity or Inner Truth, describing the entire process: getting to the bottom of something.

Now here you've lost me. Which of these is the cast hexagram, which is the changed hexagram, and which is the change pattern? And could you give the hexagram numbers to avoid confusion with differently translated names?

Freedda · Jan 13, 2019

Philip_Aladdin said:
I have posted the more interesting operations I've found in Exploring Divinations, but everyone is extremely resistant to this material so far.

I would suggest that people are not necessarily resistant, but more they don't understanding it, don't find it as interesting as you do, or just don't have a use for it.

What you are doing here reminds me of something I tried a few years ago: to create a new sequence for the hexagrams by fitting them to the Fibonacci numbers (and my own variations of same). Underlying this effort was perhaps a bit of natural and innocent curiosity, but there was also the desire to be unique, to be the hero, to 'save the day' by unlocking the mysteries of the I Ching!

I gave up after a while - in part, because I couldn't get it to work, but also because I realized there really wasn't any point in it: I was looking for a 'new order' for the wrong reasons and I didn't have either knowledge or wisdom as my motivators. Also, when it's all said and done, I don't see anything wrong with the sequence of the hexagrams as they're presented in the I Ching: they seem to work (at least most of the time!) and the mystery of their order may be the point of why they are as they are.

I believe that I could spend a lifetime or more delving into - and gleaning meaning from - the mysteries of the I Ching, without ever needing to explore another 'order' or 'arrangement' of the hexagrams. That's just fine with me actually. You may have another approach of course.

But getting back to your post, I'm afraid, that most of what you write looks more like the side of the Dr. Bronner's soap bottle, and I can't really understand most of it. It may make sense to you, but not to me, and maybe not to others either.

As Trojina and others have pointed out, what you are describing is one of the 'Change Operators' that were discovered (or at least brought to our attention) by Stephen Karcher. It is one of two change operators, the other doing the same thing with the yin lines. So, you get an E for effort, but you've not really covering any new ground here.

I'm not trying to be harsh here, but if you want people to be interested in what you're saying, then you should engage and respond to them. A few people here - whom are far more experienced at working with the I Ching than I am - have posted responses to you and you have largely ignored them.

Philip_Aladdin said:
I use yang to represent change and yin to represent no change, do you see the logic in this?

Both lines can and do at times change, that's why we have broken and unbroken lines that both move (change) and stay the same.

Philip_Aladdin said:
I would strongly recommend getting used to finding this "Yang Change" hexagram.

Again, you're recommending something that many of us are already familiar with and that many of us already make use of (along with the yin change operator), and that some of us do not use.

And from Moss Elk:

Moss Elk said:
That may be because we are mostly interested in meaning as opposed to structure. (and experienced diviners can be skeptical of 'systems', seeing them as unnecessary to comprehension of meaning.)

... Again driving home the point of why some of us might not find this all that interesting.

Trojina · Jan 13, 2019

Philip_Aladdin
I use the word oracle to refer to the result of a divination

Using the phrase 'your oracle' looked like you meant the I Ching itself -whereas you mean 'your cast' 'your answer' which has a very different, more helpful, implications.

'Your oracle' sounds like you address us as a group of lesser knowing beings whom you are distanced from. It can be heard as a sneer like if you were talking to Christians and you said 'Your bible is not what you think...etc ' . If you meant 'there is more to your answer' that comes across differently, sounds more helpful. However we do already know about change patterns and use them in readings although fairly loosely in my case. Not everyone uses them but it's not a new discovery.

I'm not clear about what you are really saying about them, Hilary has asked for clarification on some points that I also could not follow. I think they matter and could reveal a lot more in readings especially with multiple change lines.

Trojina · Jan 13, 2019

I would strongly recommend getting used to finding this "Yang Change" hexagram. It only takes a moment and it's a very interesting way to study the relationship between the primary and secondary.

I agree. My idea is that the change patterns describe the nature of the interaction between the two hexagrams.

It seems as though, if primary and secondary are thought of as cause and effect, then this other figure can be thought of as context.

...or flavour. I think of the change patterns as both seeming to describe the motives, the reasons behind asking, which I think Karcher suggested, and describing the nature of the interaction between the 2 hexagrams. For example perhaps when hexagram 42 and hexagram 20 meet their conversation has a 24 ish nature for 24 is the yang pattern and 44 the yin pattern. 24 and 44 has something to do with how 42 and 20 connect. No I haven't thought it through properly yet....

Furthermore, these three figures can be superimposed to make a single hexagram. For example, when Increasing meets Observing the result is Restricting - this perhaps something like: paying attention to the extremes of something highlights what its limits are. Combining all three of these together makes Inner Sincerity or Inner Truth, describing the entire process: getting to the bottom of something.

When 42 meets 20 then 24 is the yang patterns and 44 is the yin pattern so where does 47 come from ?

I can't see where you get 61 and 47 from ? Diagrams don't help, can you explain in words how you get there ?

Philip_Aladdin · Jan 14, 2019

Sorry, I meant Decreasing. So: when 41 meets 20 it creates 60 - combine them together and this makes 61. And the change pattern is significant because it's determined - it can't be anything else. Any time you get Decreasing changing to Restricting, or Restricting changing to Decreasing, it is always and exclusively via Watching. There are some great philosophical lessons here: what is it that connects 27, Nourishing, and 29, Darkness? What is between arguing with somebody, 6, and trusting them, 5? What is between Exhaustion, 47, and Liberation, 40? So far this is falling on deaf ears - I was hoping it would fall on blind eyes!

Trojina · Jan 14, 2019

Sorry, I meant Decreasing. So: when 41 meets 20 it creates 60 -

When 41 meets 20 the yang change pattern is 60 yes. The yin change pattern is 56

combine them together and this makes 61.

What do you mean, combine what together ? What are you combining together to make 61 ? I think we have asked this a few times now.

And the change pattern is significant because it's determined - it can't be anything else. Any time you get Decreasing changing to Restricting, or Restricting changing to Decreasing, it is always and exclusively via Watching.

By 'restricting' I will take it you mean 47. So you are saying any time 41 changes to 47 or 47 changes to 41 it does so through yang change pattern 20.

no it doesn't. perhaps you mean using previous example 60 is restricting ? 'Restricting' is a bad word for 60. So you are saying any time 41 meets 60 the change pattern is 20 ? No it isn't.

41 changing to 60 means lines 2..5 and 6 change making the yang change pattern 59 and the yin pattern 55.

Where do you get 20 from here and can you use hexagram numbers as you are using names that could mean several things.

There are some great philosophical lessons here: what is it that connects 27, Nourishing, and 29, Darkness? What is between arguing with somebody, 6, and trusting them, 5? What is between Exhaustion, 47, and Liberation, 40? So far this is falling on deaf ears - I was hoping it would fall on blind eyes!

the 27 and 29 example doesn't make sense. To change from 27 to 29 lines 1.2.5.6 have to change giving 61 as yang change pattern. Where do you get 36 from if that is what you mean by 'darkness'

You have been asked several times some pretty clear questions and it seems you are deaf to them rather than us being deaf. Hilary asked you and I asked you but you haven't explained anything and frankly I don't think it is because we are too dumb to understand !

Are you trying to create some sort of mystique of special knowledge or can you just actually explain clearly how you are coming to this 3rd hexagram via the change patterns ? If you can't there's no point in trying to have a conversation about it.

moss elk · Jan 14, 2019

Trojina said:
us being deaf.

For some reason the phrase Lofting-light popped in my head.

Trojina · Jan 14, 2019

So far this is falling on deaf ears - I was hoping it would fall on blind eyes!

Be aware there is a communication problem whereby you are coming across as someone who thinks he knows a lot more than the dimwits here but is just too advanced to share it in any coherent way.

This may simply be miscommunication in which case I apologise but if it isn't and you really are saying we are deaf/stupid then don't expect people to hang around begging you to explain your vision. Use your intelligence to make clear explanations for people who have tried to converse with you. If you can't don't say they lack intelligence for not understanding.

Trojina · Jan 14, 2019

Moss Elk said:
For some reason the phrase Lofting-light popped in my head.

He died many years ago, you know that don't you ?

moss elk · Jan 14, 2019

Trojina said:
He died many years ago, you know that don't you ?

Yes, therefore I have violated no rules by referring to him.

Trojina · Jan 14, 2019

I know I wasn't going to do a citizen's arrest I was just saying because newer people often don't know who is dead and who isn't.

This conversation is getting rather strange and it's not even Halloween

moss elk · Jan 14, 2019

Trojina said:
This conversation is getting rather strange and it's not even Halloween

:bag:
You knew it was me?
My costume needs improvement then.

There is more to your oracle: I have found a third hexagram, describing the change

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