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Thread: Very negative moving lines

  1. #1


    In my 25 years of consulting the i ching - (yes its me anon) one of my major problems has been getting very despondent when I have received really miserable hexagrams like 47 and 23, and really gruesome moving lines. This was particularly a problem when I was very young. Later I realised its just the language/interpretation that can make it so gruesome. I know for example, that having ones nose cut off (line 3, hexagram 38)is likley to mean no more than some humiliation, but still it does affect me. I would like to know peoples opinions and feelings about when they have received very grim readings. Recently when I have asked about the necessity of moving house I have often received 56, line 6 moving. I really don't want to burn my own nest. Actually as I am writing this a more positive message is occuring to me....Often though I have got very stuck and despondent about negative lines - often they have made me feel quite doomed. I realise this is quite a passive attitude, and would like to know if others sometimes feel like this, or, how they try to use negative lines in a helpful way. However it is the case I think that sometimes the
    I Ching definitely does 'predict' unfortunate events and there is little you can do about it. For example a few months ago I asked if I would be able to continue in my current lifestyle for much longer. I got 23, lines 1 & 3 moving. I thought something was going to give but I didn't know what. Then my partner died and I have thought since then that that was the thing that 23
    was referring to. Getting that hexagram did worry me at the time, but obviously I could not have prevented my partners heart attack. Do others get worried when they receive seemingly very negaive readings ?

  2. #2
    candid Guest


    Hello Louise, (anon)

    Yes, I relate well to the tendency, though considerably less now than I used to.

    Its interesting that you shared about 23 and the loss of your partner. I had an online friend for two years. Never in that time did I offer to do a reading for her. This time was different. I felt lead to ask her, and she gratefully accepted. She received 23 also. Two days later, she died in a house fire.

    We all want a happy, positive reading, but even the most abundant good fortune is short lived and it always returns to the yin side of the coin. Its usual that changes in a ?positive? hexagram are of a turning toward darkness, and the change lines in a ?negative? reading also turns into its opposite. That?s just life. That?s how its works, whether one is aware of it or not. I?d rather be aware, as I?m sure you would too.

    #41 Decrease, is an interesting example. Each change from 1 to 6 become ?increasingly? favorable. Yet, during this cycle, we are to restrain our instincts and control our anger. Its only by doing this that we can climb up the lines of change to arrive at our highest calling.

    In the big picture, there really is no negative hexagram or change lines. They are all there for the purpose of experiencing light, not darkness. Even #36, Darkening of the Light, shows us how to shine in solitary darkness, if needs be. Its very positive in that light, though we may experience some discomfort from without.

    Any input or feedback?


  3. #3


    Greetings To All...

    I agree with Candid, the hexagrams describe energy. Energy is neither inherently good or bad, it's just energy. How energy is used determines it's value.

  4. #4


    Hello Candid thankyou for your response. Now I come to think of it that wasn't the first time I have received 23 when asking about a person and that person has died. I am interested to know how, when you did that reading for your online friend, you 'explained' or interpreted that reading for her. I value your more personal approach to my question.

  5. #5
    candid Guest


    Hi Louise,

    My friend was estranged with her parents and was both angry and depressed. She was visiting with them from out of state, staying in a cabin several miles from town where her folks lived.
    She also mentioned that she was invited to a party two nights later, even though she was despondent. The whole thing made me very uncomfortable, which is why I "resorted" to offer the reading to her.

    To condense it down, she went to the party and returned with two "friends" who were to sleep downstairs while she slept in her room. The fire broke out downstairs and while the two escaped, my friend was found expired in her bed by the firemen.

    There were two direct elements of 23 which I applied to her situation. One,was the judgment; "SPLITTING APART. It doesn't further one to go anywhere." I advised her to cancel her plans to the party, as I sensed danger. Second, the image; "The image of SPLITTING APART. Thus those above can ensure their position
    only by giving generously to those below." I advised her to forgive her mom and to make peace with her. I don't know if that happened, but from her state of mind, I really doubt it. I was deeply troubled but there was nothing more I could do. I made her promise to email me when she got home from the party, the next morning at the latest. Of course, I didn't hear from her. It was five days later that a mutual friend emailed her obituary. I investigated further and found that she indeed had passed on two days after her reading, Saturday night.

    I find the ramifications of the image, "Thus those above can ensure their position only by giving generously to those below," to be far reaching.

    Without going into details, the aftermath experience has led me to form pretty strong beliefs regarding the soul of one who has passed on. Her visitations over the next three months (to present) are not something I can deny. I try to direct her as best I can to move on in peace. I don't encourage her visits nor to I turn her away. I do set limits of time and the degree that I'm willing to invest myself in her well being. It wouldn't be healthy for me to do otherwise.

    Karen's favorite expression was, "choose joy." I try to do this and advise her to continue doing likewise.

    Choose joy.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 1970
    Oxfordshire, UK


    Hello Louise (also Candid),

    Good to have you here!

    First, an apologetic note/ explanation for everyone else. The reason Louise started out as Anon is not some sort of moral cowardice. She had emailed me repeatedly asking about how to change her username here. I, of course, replied each time, but somehow all the replies failed to reach her until very recently. As soon as she had an account with the right name, she used it.

    Thank you, Louise, for your patience and reticence on this! In your place I'd be feeling maligned and indignant.

    (BTW, you can still add a personal quote, etc, if you'd like, by using the 'edit profile' link right at the bottom of the LH menu, and still omit your email address.)


    I've been reading this correspondence with wonder and a lot of respect. At first I was just going to say that I didn't tend to ask for predictions without advice, so the problem never really arose. But that's obviously absurdly glib. The oracle does give unsolicited predictions, including unwelcome news.

    A couple of comments on #23. First, I once received 23 unchanging as my 'hexagram for the year'. Well, I'm still here, and in fact nothing obviously unpleasant happened to me throughout the year, though there was plenty of internal space-clearing to be done, and it was overall not my favourite year so far.

    Second, I once did a reading on someone's state of health. I don't usually do this at all - not being a medic, I'm unlikely to interpret the results right. I certainly wouldn't charge for it. But on this occasion I felt I should do it, and did.

    23, unchanging.

    I got extremely worried, and thought about cancerous growths and operations (remembering that knife in the ideogram). Didn't mention these in my reply, but instead talked about something that had to be seen to and urged the querent to get medical attention ASAP.

    It turned out s/he had a very painful growth and was wondering whether it was really worthwhile going back for treatment. The reading prompted him/her to go - and the growth was benign, in no way life-threatening. The last I heard the problems were by no means all sorted out, but s/he was optimistic. I felt as if I'd been through a mangle.


    About Supa's comment:
    "Energy is neither inherently good or bad, it's just energy. How energy is used determines its value."
    From a supreme, universal point of view I can only agree. But I can't always find my way to that point of view. In hexagram 44 something new and uncontrolled arrives; it can't be incorporated into the current structure, so seems set to undermine it completely. Is this good or bad? About 95% of us experience it as bad. Thus far I've been quite happy with it, but perhaps I've never experienced an extreme case!

    To find a perspective where death in a house fire doesn't feel appalling is beyond me, though I know it as an abstraction. Candid, thank you very much for sharing the reading. I begin to see what you mean about those above, giving, though I will need to be stretched a lot more before I can really take it in...

  7. #7


    Hi Candid, I found your experience very interesting. I automatically started to take the line "those above can only ensure their position only by giving generously to those below" very literally, in that i was focusing on 'where' in the house she and her friends were sleeping, ie if she had been downstairs she would presumably have escaped. I am taking the 'above' and 'below' in a very concrete way. I don't mean to be flippant here, the thought just came into my head.
    However am I right in thinking that your interpretation was that if she had cared for those below (her parents ?)ie, made it up with them, the event may have been diverted ? I may have misunderstood you. I am also interested in your experience of her visitations - though i guess thats nothing to do with the I Ching - however I know this is very personal to you so I understand if you choose not to disclose about that.
    With regard to Supas 'energy is neither inherently good or bad...' I feel the I Ching to be a compassionate 'being' able to help me in my human life. I am not in an elevated spiritual state(only sometimes) my grief, happiness, worries are very real to me, and i consult the I Ching about them...and it responds, often on a very concrete level. To be honest that is what I usually want from it, helpful concrete advise -now
    I am often amazed that it does respond to my sometimes quite trivial problems. To use an analogy if a little child is very upset at losing her favourite toy it is more helpful if the adult comes down to their level (literally) and tries to empathize and understand, rather than if the adult were to say to the weeping child "it does not matter about the toy, it was an illusion, merely energy, it is not important". I feel sometimes the I Ching is a compassionate adult to my 'child', ie my small human ego self. That is why I am asking about (apparently) negative moving lines. I usually experience the I Ching as 'friendly', and am puzzled by damning or accusatory lines,(ie hexagram 42 line 6)or feel guilty/accused without understanding. Having used lots of different interpretations though I have realised some are worded so much more positively than others that its helpful to stick with the less damning ones. Karcher for example is much 'kinder' than for example Sam Reifler. I will compare them here to illustrate my point...Hexagram 42, line 6 moving;
    Karcher "..You have not given your heart an enduring foundation. By acting this way you cut yourself off from the spirits..."
    Reifler "No one will support him. Everything goes against him. His sympathies are fickle. Ominous"
    I tend to go for Karcher first, that may be cowardly ?? But thankyou Hilary for clearing me of moral cowardice.

  8. #8


    Greetings To All...

    Louise, actually I wasn't really responding to you directly. I was just agreeing with Candid's post about energy. I hope you didn't find my post cold or pedantic. I understand what it is to want concrete answers to real problems. As a counselor, I found that many clients also wanted the oracle concretised. I have to really work on watering my message down. I again apologize if I offended you.

  9. #9
    candid Guest


    Hi Louise,

    How odd. I posted a response to your last message ealier this morning but now I see it isn't on the board. I hope I didn't accidentaly post it in the wrong room. I'll look around but I'm pretty certain I posted it here.

  10. #10
    candid Guest


    Louise, My apologies. I did indeed respond to you in the wrong room/ wrong board. Though you may have already read it there, I'll post it here just in case.

    I've gotten 23 a hundred times or more. I've lost a friend to death once after receiving it for that person. If I were to get it now, I wouldn't be thinking, its the demise of my body.

    Louise, your interpretation is correct. If my friend gave to those below (her parents) and made peace, her position above would have been more secure. Her soul would have been at peace with that part of her life. As I said, I don't suspect that this had happened, but it may have.

    The other thought is that her soul may have a mission which is still attached to this realm, and by aiding in whatever ways are available to her, she may actually be able to assist in bringing happiness to some who are still here. I'm not claiming this as truth, but it does make sense to me on a personal level and it isn't unreasonable.

    One more thing, Louise. I didn't say that synchronistic events never had meaning. But much like dreams, some are merely the natural movements of things around us and in our lives, and other times, they act as guides and messages from the universe, and still other, actually messages from another soul or souls.

    I traveled through the Carlos Castaneda books (A Separate Reality, etc.) and found myself obsessed with finding the meaning behind every nook and cranny. It was as close to being clinically insane as I've ever been. So I'm understandably cautious about encouraging someone to venture into that world.

    My best advice to you and to myself is, enjoy the phenomenon. If something is particularly striking about a dream or synchronistic event, ponder it. If it continues to knock on the door of your heart and mind, follow where it leads you. Those events can be milestone changes in ones life.


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