I was just looking at Hilary's min-course about the hexagram pairs (which is available to Change Circle members). This is a course about the meaning of and use of the 32 hexagram pairs - e.g. 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 55 and 56, 63 and 64, etc. - in the Yi.

In the mini-course Hilary says "the pairs are fundamental to the Yijing ..."

So, my question is: what makes them fundamental to the Yi? Where does this idea of working with pairs come from? (.... and maybe she explains this in the course and I just haven't seen it yet?)

Best, D.

This is a great question to chew on!
I wonder if the pairs are from a lost interpretive tradition, something that maybe was so pervasive that people forgot where it was from, and all that remains now is the pairs. Just as changing-line system, or nuclear hexagram system....we take those for granted, but they evolved out of someone's ideas.

So, my question is: what makes them fundamental to the Yi? Where does this idea of working with pairs come from? (.... and maybe she explains this in the course and I just haven't seen it yet?)

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Where does it come from ? Well it's intrinsic to the Yi, to the hexagrams isn't it.

It's not an idea that comes from somewhere it's actually part of the structure of the whole thing how it's made. There's 1 and then there's 2. That pair isn't an idea someone made up in the way that Karcher made the Shadow or the Ideal up it's actually there.

tacrab said:

This is a great question to chew on!
I wonder if the pairs are from a lost interpretive tradition, something that maybe was so pervasive that people forgot where it was from, and all that remains now is the pairs. Just as changing-line system, or nuclear hexagram system....we take those for granted, but they evolved out of someone's ideas.

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No the pairs are intrinsic to the I Ching they aren't 'ideas' they are part and parcel of what it is like my eyes are part of my body. No one would 'forget where it was from' that's like saying I could forget where my eyes are from.

If you have Yi, the I Ching you have pairs obviously. You can't not have pairs because they are just there. It's not like you can say 'oh maybe I won't have the pair of 1 because it's there.

Trojina said:

Where does it (hexagram pairs) come from? Well it's intrinsic to the Yi, to the hexagrams isn't it .... It's not an idea that comes from somewhere - it's actually part of the structure of the whole thing how it's made.

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Thanks Trojina. Note to self: 'Freedda, where do the pairs come from - dah!'

So, I think what I was trying to ask, in part - or maybe only what I'm asking now - how is looking at the hexagram pairs 'fundamental' to working with the Yi? Or if not fundamental, where did the idea of looking at the pairs as part of interpreting the Yi's response come from? For example, is it discussed in the Wings, or perhaps a later addition?

Thanks, D.

Freedda said:

Thanks Trojina. Note to self: 'Freedda, where do the pairs come from - dah!'

So, I think what I was trying to ask, in part - or maybe only what I'm asking now - how is looking at the hexagram pairs 'fundamental' to working with the Yi? Or if not fundamental, where did the idea of looking at the pairs as part of interpreting the Yi's response come from? For example, is it discussed in the Wings, or perhaps a later addition?

Thanks, D.

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Hilary says it is a wing , the 10th wing (?) I believe which she calls the Zagua if you read the PDF and she talks about it in the video on the course. I did wonder about it.

It's taking me a while to figure it from Wilhelm, where it was in Wilhelm. If you have Wilhelm see page 260. There he says the tenth wing, which he calls Tsa Kua, in his book is under each hexagram in book 3 of his book. It is under each hexagram and is called 'miscellaneous notes' in book 3 'the commentaries' it is actually also in Hilary's book under 'pair' but yes it is a Wing.

So if you want to see what is said for the 10th wing/Zagua/Tsa Kua in Wilhelm go to book 3 and apparently the 10th wing there is included under 'miscellaneous' for each hexagram - except it isn't really always

Anyway one satisfactory example, almost is for 11/12 on page 441 for example.

On page 260 of Wilhelm he writes

'The last 10th wing, Tsa Kua, Miscellaneous Notes on the Hexagrams, is made up of definitions of the hexagrams in mnemonic verses, for the most part contrasting them in pairs.....'

I must be looking in the wrong place as I see no mnemonic verses though I have seen them before in Wilhelm.

Anyway I guess you are asking because of the new mini course in pairs (click here) ? From what I have seen it looks very useful, I've only looked at part one. I admit the reference to the Zagua puzzled me, but it is a wing.

I wonder if @hilary; could help us. I'm getting confused using Wilhelm. I'm looking under 'miscellaneous notes' as instructed on page 260 for each hexagram and I see no mnemonic verses.

Trojina said:

Hilary says it is a wing , the 10th wing (?) I believe which she calls the Zagua if you read the PDF and she talks about it in the video on the course.

If you have Wilhelm see page 260. There he says the tenth wing, which he calls Tsa Kua, ... It is under each hexagram and is called 'miscellaneous notes' in book 3 'the commentaries' it is actually also in Hilary's book under 'pair' but yes it is a Wing.

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Thanks so much. Knowing it's from the 10th Wing, whatever anyone calls it, is 'close enough for government work' - and since I work for a local government, it will do for now! (And I probably would know this if I had finished reading the PDF!)

I was wondering, in part, because I read about the pairs in Karcher, who says the Yi speaks to him in pairs, so it is basic to his interpretation.

I'll say, just taking a quick look, it seems to me that some of the pairs 'make sense', while finding connections between others seems a bit of stretch - but that is just from a mile-high, cursory view of things. And I think I'd get a better understanding if I actually dig in and try working with the pairs in my readings.

Best, D.

In Wilhelm/Baynes you need to look in Book III for the Zagua / Tsa Kua, under the heading 'Miscellaneous Notes'. He makes it less useful by only giving you the text for that hexagram alone, so you don't see the contrast with the pair.

As for why/ how/ when they're fundamental - we can point at the Zagua, yes, but it's more and older than that. The Sequence is also arranged in pairs - probably the only thing everyone can agree on about it! - and we don't know how old that is.

But beyond that, you can see their influence in the original text. Some are obvious just from the hexagram names - 11/12, 41/42, 63/64... - and some from the Oracle text (11/12, 5/6, 53/54...). Sometimes you'll see pairing clearly at work in paired lines (now I've done a Pairs course I can follow up with one on line pathways!), ie lines that are the 'same' line seen from opposite perspectives: 63.3 and 64.4, for instance. (And sometimes, with both hexagrams and lines, it takes a bit more thought to see how the pairing works.)

So basically, hexagrams have been paired for as long as they've been a combination of lines and words, which by all accounts is about 3,000 years .

And maybe more to the point, they quite easily and naturally become part of your sense of a hexagram. Probably most of us will find, if we think about it, that they already have: we know 39's Difficult because it isn't Releasing, and so on. It helps if you have one of Stephen Karcher's books - Total I Ching is the classic - where he insists on treating hexagrams in pairs.

My comment about pairs reflects that there's so much we don't know about the Yijing origins and early development. All murky.
As for the Zagua, I like Rutt's straightforward rendition. Sample:

"Huan (Hexagram 59) will disperse,
Jie (60) will reverse;
Jie (40) uncoils,
Jian (39) embroils."

Many Yijing editions (in whatever language) section up the hexagram-oriented wings and place their material with relevant hexagrams. Those include Great/Small Images, Commentary on Decision, Wenyan, Sequence of Hexagrams, and Miscellaneous Hexagrams. It's easier to see the mnemonic intent of these last two when you read them whole. They are freestanding texts in Rutt, Wu Jing-nan, and Legge.

hilary said:

In Wilhelm/Baynes you need to look in Book III ... under the heading 'Miscellaneous Notes'. He makes it less useful by only giving you the text for that hexagram alone, so you don't see the contrast with the pair.

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Thanks Hilary. What I found here is a 'misc. notes' section for each hexagram. At least in a few ones I looked at, it does not use the word 'pairs' though it does talk about this relationship in the notes for the first of the paired hexagrams. So, for 23/24 ....


At first glance it doesn't seem that obvious or clear to me how this would be useful, or how I might apply it in a reading about either 23 or 24; but I think that it's something I need to dig into further and try in some realtime readings - with an actual question or query (which often makes all the difference); and Wilhelm might only be showing a small part of what the pair is about. I have Karcher too, to refer to - as long as I don't get lost floating down the 'ghost river' or go missing in the 'Rising Mists.'

Also, I did not find an actual Zagua/Tsa Kua section or chapter in Wilhelm, in the same way he covers the Ta Chuan: The Great Treatise [Great Commentary], or the Shuo Koa / Discussion of the Trigrams. Did I miss it?

Best, David.

Also, I did not find an actual Zagua/Tsa Kua section or chapter in Wilhelm, in the same way he covers the Ta Chuan: The Great Treatise [Great Commentary], or the Shuo Koa / Discussion of the Trigrams. Did I miss it?

Best, David.

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Why do I sometimes feel my posts are completely invisible. Or maybe you looked at it but just didn't read it , I don't know.


I told you in my earlier post, post 6...... here will bold the relevant bits if you can see it ….He explains where the Tsu Kua is on page 260, that is why I was pointing you to page 260 because that is the page where he tells you where the Tsa Kua is in his book. I even started quoting where he says it

It's taking me a while to figure it from Wilhelm, where it was in Wilhelm. If you have Wilhelm see page 260. There he says the tenth wing, which he calls Tsa Kua, in his book is under each hexagram in book 3 of his book. It is under each hexagram and is called 'miscellaneous notes' in book 3 'the commentaries' it is actually also in Hilary's book under 'pair' but yes it is a Wing.

So if you want to see what is said for the 10th wing/Zagua/Tsa Kua in Wilhelm go to book 3 and apparently the 10th wing there is included under 'miscellaneous' for each hexagram - except it isn't really always

Anyway one satisfactory example, almost is for 11/12 on page 441 for example.

On page 260 of Wilhelm he writes

'The last 10th wing, Tsa Kua, Miscellaneous Notes on the Hexagrams, is made up of definitions of the hexagrams in mnemonic verses, for the most part contrasting them in pairs.....'

I must be looking in the wrong place as I see no mnemonic verses though I have seen them before in Wilhelm.

Anyway I guess you are asking because of the new mini course in pairs (click here) ? From what I have seen it looks very useful, I've only looked at part one. I admit the reference to the Zagua puzzled me, but it is a wing.

I wonder if hilary could help us. I'm getting confused using Wilhelm. I'm looking under 'miscellaneous notes' as instructed on page 260 for each hexagram and I see no mnemonic verses.

Click to expand...

So although he says they are under miscellaneous notes, that is the 10th wing is actually under miscellaneous notes, they aren't actually contrasting the pairs in every hexagram as Hilary said in the bolded bit

hilary
In Wilhelm/Baynes you need to look in Book III for the Zagua / Tsa Kua, under the heading 'Miscellaneous Notes'. He makes it less useful by only giving you the text for that hexagram alone, so you don't see the contrast with the pair.

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In short there is no separate section for the Zagua in Wilhelm it is as he explains on page 260


That is where he tells you why there is not a separate section for the Tsa Kua on page 260 at the bottom of the page in the Introduction to the wings

David,
Wilhelm's Books I and III both overlap and don't overlap, and, his commentaries for each draw from different streams of Yijing thought. He explains his arrangement of the Wings on his pp. 256-261 (plus, see preface pp. xvii-xx), what the Wings are and where he's placed them. Again, his method was not his own invention, but tradition.

• Wilhelm's Book I includes original Zhouyi layer (Judgment/Decision and Line texts), plus the Great Image Wing (drawn from Wings 3 & 4) edited to be placed with relevant hexagram.

• Wilhelm's Book II contains the Great Treatise (Wings 5 and 6, Ta Chuan/Hsi-tzu Chuan, a.k.a Da Zhuan/Xici zhuan). It also has the Shuo Kua/Discussion of the Trigrams., his Wing 7. All with his commentaries. These two commentaries are philosophical in nature, so are presented on their own.

• Wilhelm's Book III has Zhouyi layer plus ALL the Wings, including both the Sequence of Hexagrams (what he calls Wing 9, Hsu-kua, a.k.a. Xugua) and the Miscellaneous Hexagrams (what he calls Wing 10, Tsa-kua, a.k.a. Zagua). These are all edited to be placed with relevant hexagram.

So, back to your question. The Zagua sections in Wilhelm are exactly the "Miscellaneous Notes". For Hexagram 23 & 24 (putting them together from pp. 500 & 504) reads:

"SPLITTING APART means decay.
RETURN means coming back."

The balance of text that you quoted is actually Wilhelm's commentary, not original wing text. Throughout Wilhelm, original Yijing text is indented and in slightly larger print.
A good exercise is to type out the wing so you can study it on its own.
Hope this helps.

Trojina said:

Why do I sometimes feel my posts are completely invisible. Or maybe you looked at it but just didn't read it , .... my earlier post, post 6...... here will bold the relevant bits if you can see it ….He explains where the Tsu Kua is on page 260, that is why ....

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Thanks again to you (and HIlary) for pointing me in this direction. Generally, I'm not see all that much in Wilhelm, but I'll have to explore more and also refer back to the course and PDF.

By way of an explaination .... I did read your post, and Hilary's. However, I have to read dozens of emails at work every day, so I have gotten into the habit of skimming what I read on-line, in a less than thorough way: I think I'm getting what is important, but obviously I'm not, so I should really be paying more attention.

Also ... I was viewing Wilhlem in Kindle on my tablet, so that meant I didn't have your messages open to refer to while I was reading, and also there are no page numbers in the Kindle version, so I wasn't finding what you said was on p260. (After I posted my response I did find a way to search in Kindle by page number, but that's sort of after the fact.)

Anyways, probably a lesson that I need to try to pay a bit more attention, and to try to develop an attention span that's longer than that of a flea when reading here. But thank you again for sharing what you did.

David.