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17 Following -- about being followed or about following or both?

liquidity

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What's your sense? Is 17 primarily about getting someone or something else -- external or internal -- to follow you or vice-versa?

Is it about being a leader or learning to follow someone or something else as the leader?

Or is it about both?

My own experience seems to be (though I could be wrong) that 17 seems to me to be more about stepping up and acting as leader/acquiring followers than about my following something or someone else.
 
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Freedda

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I have never had the sense that this is about having others follow us - though I feel the specifics of the query and querent - the seeking and the one who seeks - will always play a part. But generally, I think it is more about how we follow - both actively and passively. Also, looking at the trigrams, it could be about a particular kind of following or response: to respond with joy (Lake) and quick, sudden decisive action (Thunder).

Brad Hatcher notes:

Following is the perfect (name), but this only leaves us the task of unfolding it like a Chinese word and exposing its many dimensions to cover the proper territory of this Gua. Following should carry a broad set of connotations that include active, even aggressive, modes of following, such as tracking, hunting and pursuit. You can follow your gut or follow a hunch. It is not just doing what your deity's minister tells you what the deity tells you to do.

To follow properly is to Succeed. It is not merely Following passively along: there is Thunder in the Lake here, and the movement is driven by a sensible pulse. The pulse occurs in time, like a drum beat, and 'following in time' is brought up in the Tuan Zhuan and described in the Da Xiang. Finally, the Nuremberg defense of 'I was only following orders' is suggested in 17.6, where it follows that there are consequences to being someone else's consequence.

Best, D.
 

bradford

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From my Gua Ming book: Following should carry a broad set of connotations that include active, even aggressive, modes of following, such as tracking, hunting and pursuit. You can follow your gut or follow a hunch. It is not just doing what your deity's minister tells you what the deity tells you to do. To follow properly is to Succeed. It is not merely Following passively along: there is Thunder in the Lake here, and the movement is driven by a sensible pulse. The pulse occurs in time, like a drum beat, and ''following in time' is brought up in the Tuan Zhuan and described in the Da Xiang.
 

rosada

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I think of 16 as describing a revival meeting that leaves people stirred up and inspired.
I see 17 then as describing allowing this enthusiasm, this strengthened awareness of the life force, to propel one forward.

So it's not about people following us, its about being aware that we are following or flowing with The Force and the challenges we meet as we attempt to do this.

(Since the image says "The superior man at night fall goes to bed", does this mean 18 is referring to the sleep state? After all, it's during sleep the body heals/ works on what has been spoiled best.)
 
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Freedda

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.... Since the image says "The superior man at night fall goes to bed", does this mean 18 is referring to the sleep state? After all, it's during sleep the body heals/ works on what has been spoiled best.
This is from the image text for 17, so did you mean to refer to 18 (which doesn't have any obvious dream or sleep imagery that I can tell)?

Two other versions of 17's imagery are:

'The noble young one, accordingly, approaching nightfall, Goes indoors for refreshment and relaxation.' And ....

'The superior person withdraws for rest when the sun goes down.'​

I suppose it could be about dreaming, but could it be about 'following' our wants and needs: we follow our hunger with food and drink, and we follow our tiredness by resting, ... and nighttime follows daytime.

Best, David.
 
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rosada

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I meant that as 17. says "the superior person withdraws for rest when the sun goes down" then does 18 refer to the actual resting, the sleeping? 18. doesn't appear to have any dream imagery but the title, "Work on what has been spoiled" could be a reference to sleep as that is when the body heals itself, when it works on what has been spoiled. It's interesting to think of the "father" and the "mother" in 18 as symbolic of our own decisions and attitudes that need to be revisited and revised. Like in our sleep we enter a space where we can speak with our ancestors, find out just what the hell were they thinking. Then having had a chance to see what life is like on the other side, maybe we awaken at 19. with the desire to share the new insights.
 

moss elk

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then does 18 refer to the actual resting

Nope.
But you have a wonderful imagination! :)

The repairs in 18 are active conscious decisions and course corrections, actions. You need to be involved in 18.

What happens in sleep is more like 24. (renewal, temporary shut down, cessation of external work, easy peasy.)
The brain wave pattern people generally know as "You" (awake Rosada) specifically must be on 'vacation' for the growth hormone to be released about two hours after falling sleep.
7 days without sleep will kill most people,
Hallucinations will set in around day 4.


liquidity, it is primarily about you following, not you leading.
(excepting line 6 perhaps, but that is a different kind of leading.)
 

my_key

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For me Hex 17 is about adapting to the circumstances around you, going with them rather than fighting them. We find a sense of peace, through stalking our prey without killing, and with greater understanding of the trails they walk along and the behaviours they exhibit we maybe find some level of acceptance internally. If we are are very good at stalking we may even find a sense of joy in what we have or what we are experiencing, because we see it clearly for what it is and not a shadow darting from bush to bush. Hex 18 is a more proactive way where things that have become engrained in a situation or in us through historical conditioning are recognised and are addressed with conscious activity to bring about a new balance. This may involve internal and external work - we do what we caan to renovate the house inside and out.
 
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liquidity

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liquidity, it is primarily about you following, not you leading.
(excepting line 6 perhaps, but that is a different kind of leading.)

What about line 4, which, for example, Legge has translated this way:

"The fourth line, dynamic, shows us one followed and obtaining adherents. Though he is firm and correct, there will be evil. If he is sincere however in his course, and make that evident, into what error will he fall?"

Wing's commentary says: "Those whom you appear to influence actually have ulterior motives in their allegiance to you. Look beyond the current flattering situation into your original principled aim. Strive to act independently."
 
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Freedda

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Liquidity;

Bradford Hatcher's reading of 17.4 is 'Following to achieve success. Persistence has pitfalls. Being truly on the path, using clarity, where is the error?'

For me, what is important here is what approach or attitude we should take to our situation - regardless of who's following whom.

And as to what the advice is, I think a lot depends on who is asking the question, and just as importantly what the question is. Without this, you're only able to look at the hexagram in the abstract ...

You could have (all made up of course): how can I best get ahead in school? When is my cousin going to stop being mad at me? Or, does he/she/they love me, (and are they a he, a she or a they)? And the answer and advice in each case would fit the who, what, where, how, and why of the situation.

I think the best answers come when we can be fluid with what the answer is, so I wonder, does asking whom is following whom limit our liquidity?

Also, 'Following' is really just the name for this Gua, and some people don't give much weight to the names (some of course do). And you don't even find the word in four of the six line statements. You also have people calling it: Adjusting, or Becoming (a) New Form, or Following the Time (and/or) the Seasons.

As to this latter name, I don't think the time or the seasons would ever follow our lead, we always follow theirs, or so it seems to me.

Best, D.
 
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my_key

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17.4 - When we follow others - people, unworthy thoughts, conditioned behaviours - we are as a sheep. When we follow our own path more you will experience events or people that look to knock us off the new path. It will not be an easy path to walk. People will be attracted to the new and then look to unthrone you. (Maybe something like........... John, tell me what it's like having lost 10 lb in a month, you look faaaaaaantastic. Tell me about your diet, tell me about how you exercise, where did you get those new clothes......and then comes the sting let's go out for a slap up meal tonight to celebrate, I'm paying).

Following a new regime can be difficult. Temptations to fall back to old ways will be legion. However, if we persevere in following there will be success of some nature. We perhaps feel better about ourselves and then if we follow that new feeling even though at times we may waver off track we will still find a new balance in our life. Then perhaps, as a byproduct of our commitment to the regime and the new feelings we have inside we smile more, we lighten up. The example we set to others from this new mind set is not always something we consciously do, we just are more smiley and lighter and this then becomes a beacon for them to follow in a way that befits them best.
 
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legume

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for me this hexagram was always a pretty clear message (one of the few actually ;)) of following my own path, or rather stepping on the right path, even in the sense of some consciensciousness, where bradford's tracking, hunting and pursuit would fit perfectly.
 

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