What's really opened up your understanding of Yi?

This forum

Hilary

Bradford

Lise

and all the other people I've learned from on this forum.

I think overall that boils down to 3 cheers for this forum


Oh of course we get a lot more resources in CC so I mean this whole website not just this bit of forum

Oh and the Resonance Journal because that enables me to also be my own resource. I spend a lot of time studying my readings and readings patterns and so on which would be far harder without easy ways to access them. I'm not spending much time reading books but I do spend time thinking about Yi and how it works, how it really talks to us in practice, in real life and what it means for me.

"What's really opened up your understanding of Yi?"

The underlying Principles, the ordinances of Heaven, or at least the search for a better and more coherent understanding and knowledge of them, the experience of self, NeuroPsychology, Chinese Medicine, Physics, being brutally honest with myself, always open to other possibilities, the examinination and investigation of everything in a rational, logical and coherent manner in order to see if the same rational, logical and coherent patterns are present in what is being investigated. To name a few of the more obvious ones.

I have found Bradford Hatcher's website and writings a great resource. You can purchase his 2-volume set of the I Ching, or download a PDF, and also the same for the Tao Te Ching (I have done all).

From his website, I use:

Yijing Hexagram Names and Core Meanings, especially interesting if you like to explore the hexagram names;

Tarot as a Counseling Language: Core Meanings of the Cards - he provides 'correspondences' between the cards and the Yi (hexagrams, trigrams, etc.) - not exactly from a 'Yi' perspective or dimension, and perhaps a bit esoteric for some people, but that's each person's choice I expect.


Best, D.

What are your favorite I Ching books and articles?
What's really opened up your understanding of Yi?

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What Trojina said: this forum, the breadth and depth of experience. Also, I can think of three specific eye-opening moments.

The first was the Ritsema/Karcher, because it showed me the oracle word-by-word, so I could see where the same word was being re-used. (Brad's work does the same.) It has its flaws, but it was my original doorway into the Yi. (LiSe's, too.)

Then there's Steve Marshall's Mandate of Heaven, which shows the myths and legends behind some of the imagery. Again, it's not perfect, but it opened my eyes to the existence of all these stories. (Stephen Field's book is a fantastic source for them, too.)

And the third is Scott Davis' Classic of Changes in Cultural Context - probably an odd choice, but it opened my eyes to the possibility of a close integration between the text and the Sequence of Hexagrams. Once I realised there was something to look for, it's amazing what showed up.

Honorable mention: Stephen Karcher's simple little How to Use the I Ching, for introducing the concept of the 'relating hexagram'. Its introduction is brilliant for beginners because it really helps with interpretation and putting the parts of a reading together.

Although most visitors of this discussion board will probably not read German I would nevertheless put Dennis Schilling's Yijing in the spotlight (https://www.amazon.de/Yijing-Buch-Wandlungen-Dennis-Schilling/dp/3458700161/). I have not yet found it's equal in any other language. It is well-researched with copious amount of endnotes and explanations of the translator's choices for a certain translation. But most important:

It has a ribbon. Nothing can beat a book with a ribbon.

What really opened the IChing for me was when I started reading the I Ching from start to finish, that is, not just random lines as an oracle but rather reading all the lines and then reading the hexagrams in sequence and trying to understand why one hexagram led to the next.

Jukkodave's post about Yijing and tarot correlations can be found here. I've deleted the related 'procedural' posts about what is and isn't off-topic, etc.

hmesker said:

Although most visitors of this discussion board will probably not read German I would nevertheless put Dennis Schilling's Yijing in the spotlight (https://www.amazon.de/Yijing-Buch-Wandlungen-Dennis-Schilling/dp/3458700161/). I have not yet found it's equal in any other language. It is well-researched with copious amount of endnotes and explanations of the translator's choices for a certain translation. But most important:

It has a ribbon. Nothing can beat a book with a ribbon.

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Footnotes and a ribbon?

That settles it. Must buy.

rosada said:

What really opened the IChing for me was when I started reading the I Ching from start to finish, that is, not just random lines as an oracle but rather reading all the lines and then reading the hexagrams in sequence and trying to understand why one hexagram led to the next.

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Interesting! I've long contemplated doing this, but then another part of me seems to believe that the I Ching cannot and should not be systematized this way... that there is something 'non-linear' about it that can and should only be grasped tacitly, through experience with it.

But you feel like that attempt to understand it as a whole has really helped you? Would you be willing to share some of the specific insights you got out of that process?

Hi Liquidity,

Well first off I should mention what even got me into reading the book cover to cover. At first I tried to read Wilhelm and fell asleep before I got through the introduction. But then I got a hold of The I Ching Made Easy by Spear. The authors gave very brief summaries of their thoughts on each hexagram and then included sample readings for the lines which were based on questions they had asked while traveling the world. So as you read their book and their examples you're also enjoying reading the tale of their journey - so this sort of sucks you in to want to read the whole book. (Hilary does something similar now with WikiWing where we can all post real life examples of each line). While doing this I recognized that my own questions seemed to be getting more specific answers. Like the more I knew of all the possible responses the better the chances were the I Ching would give me the one that made the clearest sense. Also, when I knew what all the possible answers were I was more able to recognize if the one I got was particularly favorable or not. I mean, "Perseverance furthers" might sound good but it's not as strong a positive as "Supreme good fortune!!!" so it's helpful to know your options. Then what was really helpful was to see that while there are 64 different hexagrams they aren't totally different, rather they seem to be refinements on reoccurring themes, so as you read the whole book you come to see the I Ching's underlying philosophy which I would say is something along the lines of...
Life goes on.. so stay healthy...surround yourself with positive helpful friends..don't go too far off in any one direction but get feedback and make course corrections..don't be afraid to speak up when you're right and don't delay admitting when you're wrong...share and be helpful..it's usually best to do the normal expected thing...go with the flow...life goes on...

Thanks for asking!
Rosada

Another spin-off thread with some moved posts:

What does it mean to 'understand' the Yi?

i guess what helps me most is to use it often and view my readings through the lens of different translations. then again, learning of others' experiences on this forum is simply invaluable. not the mention the vast amount of knowledge about Yi itself that's shared and brought to light here. i guess it's time to start adulting and join the CC with all the goodies being mentioned

my favourite resources are Wilhelm, Bradford, lately also Alfred Huang and the Illustrated Book of Changes by Li Yan. LiSe's website has opened my eyes to many topics as well as resources and more materials still to find... generally Tao Te Ching and then more interdisciplinary approach, that's drawing from TCM, ayurveda, world's mythologies, cosmological or theological systems, Secret of the Golden Flower, enneagram, Gurdjieff's 4th way and Ouspensky's books, also psychology, general semantics, or even neuroscience - i find somehow helpful for discovering I Ching symbolism or hidden imagery.

for quick readings i use eclectic energies, then i often look up and compare lines on taoscopy. and as Carol Anthony helped me familiarise myself with Wilhelm i still value her Guide, even though i'm much more interested now in books like "The Inner Structure of the I Ching" by Govinda (but not sure yet if it's helping my understanding or only adding to confusion ).

for quick readings i use eclectic energies, then i often look up and compare lines on taoscopy. and as Carol Anthony helped me familiarise myself with Wilhelm i still value her Guide, even though i'm much more interested now in books like "The Inner Structure of the I Ching" by Govinda (but not sure yet if it's helping my understanding or only adding to confusion ).

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As long as you know Taoscopy's stuff is not the I Ching, it will most certainly add to your confusion, he just writes what he thinks with no connection to Yi at all. I think it's most unfortunate you actually use him as an I Ching resource ? Never heard of Govinda.

Trojina said:

As long as you know Taoscopy's stuff is not the I Ching, it will most certainly add to your confusion, he just writes what he thinks with no connection to Yi at all. I think it's most unfortunate you actually use him as an I Ching resource ?

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it's more to do with adding to own database of other viewpoints, similar to how i'd search the archive of this forum for particular readings. maybe more for broadening the experience rather than deepening it, if that makes sense... never my first go-to resource, but i was also sure it had some interesting articles that tbh i now seem to be unable to locate.

"The Inner Structure of the I Ching" by Govinda

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Govinda had very good books when it comes to stuff like lung-gom-pa and some other purely Tibetan systems.
However, even though he was born in Germany his prime interest was Tibetan Buddhism(got to be Lama and all) and while the inner fire and their view to Buddhist tantra is awesome there, the Yi Jing and the many systems related to it is just not related to what he was studying and knew in any way, other then the general region geographically.

So at that point of time, it would be same as taking someone studying Hawaiian culture to write a book about Yi Jing. They can gather some popular materials from other sources not related to Hawaii(as the stuff there isn't connected to Yi Jing in any direct way), but can't do more then that.

While Tibet is part of China today, the 2 cultures are very different and when it comes to the Five Arts, in my view most Tibetans know as much about any of them including the Yi Jing, as Chinese people know about Tantric Buddhism. And that is not much in general, with very few exceptions, not including Govinda.

Govinda tried to make some relations to western knowledge about the Yi, combined with some Tibetan teachings... The end result in my view was so bad its probably the worse Yi Jing book I have tried to read.

So feeling confused about how it works after reading that is good, if you feel you fully understand how it works after that specific book, then something is very wrong.

Hi Gmullii
But dont forget that it wouldnt mattere where in the world you are, be that Tibet, Germany, Hawaii, if the content was relevant to the underlying principles of nature and the ordinqances of heaven, that is of course one way of describing those fundamentals, then a book from any part of the world could and would be relevant, and would add to our repertoire of understanding.

Bit of course if the contents were just those of particular beliefs and had little or no rational, logical and coherent arguments to support them then of course you are right and it does make a difference.
But then the difference would be irrelevant as the comparision of the contents of one view to another could only be made if it was first established that the contents of any of the particular beliefs had any validity at all so at to be used as a reference point. The easiest way to do that, in the first instance, is by the tools of rationality, coherence and logic. If the contents of any view, from whatever part of the world it is, dont make sense then they have no more validity than those of anyone else.

Dave

But dont forget that it wouldnt mattere where in the world you are, be that Tibet, Germany, Hawaii, if the content was relevant to the underlying principles of nature and the ordinqances of heaven, that is of course one way of describing those fundamentals, then a book from any part of the world could and would be relevant, and would add to our repertoire of understanding.

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Ahh... Well, ok, lets go back to that, although should be obvious by now its not exactly the approach I have decided to follow in my learning.

If we look at quantum physics and stuff like the double slit experiment
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc) its easy to see that what we think is rational and logical is very far away from how the world actually works.

Or we can just look at the state of our environment. A tribe in central America many years ago had a saying.

"Only when the last tree has been cut down, the last fish caught, the last river poisoned, only then will we realize that one cannot eat money."

If we look at how it works, that same approach to rationality and logic, so strong in the corporation and science today had destroyed nature, because nature isn't logical. The tribes wouldn't say they are logical or rational, yet they had connection to nature we are missing today.

So while there is some "coherence" that is involved in studying the changes, logic and rationality don't play a lot, in my view to all these material.


And the "coherence" is evolving with time. Often we can think we got it fully together and then find out there was so much more we didn't knew...
If we view "coherence" as the wholeness of how we perceive a system that will always depend on how much we know about that system. For example all the blind people in the Image below think they have coherent understanding of what they are interacting with. And we as a person looking at them think we have coherent understanding better then theirs.

And we probably are all far away from reality, as depending how we decide to look at it, this are just synapses firing in our brains, not a real elephant and real blind people anywhere near...


That doesn't mean I have problem with any "non five arts" sources to this, though. I do agree there can(and is) valuable input when relating the systems from there to here. For example the connection of DNA to the Hexagrams seems to be valid and very interesting. And while Govinda does mention that its nice to remember that originally it was in another book and article.

So we get to the same idea... In my view "rationality" is subjective. Coherence is always evolving..
And logic is overrated, its similar to the probability theory in the other topic - it can do awesome job with the info you feed it, but there are so many ways to approach what to feed it, that with the same amount of circumstances people will arrive at a different conclusion, as we can again see in the other topic. Then we get to what conclusion is "right" and that is just not how it works, as then the inevitable question is "right for what".


So in short. In my view:
Rationality is subjective and means very little as an objective criteria for anything.
Coherence is important but its ever evolving and when beginning a new vast field of knowledge often may be missing at start. Doesn't mean whole of it doesn't work, just means we need to be able to exist in uncertainty to get to the good stuff at times.
And logic is awesome tool, but its only as good as the info we provide it.

How that relates to Govinda... He made an awful book that to this day is the only Yi Jing book that I actually throw in the trash some years ago. Was he rational, coherent or logical... That is your criteria for judging information, not mine, so can't comment on that in relation to his book.

Hi Gmulli

"the double slit experiment"

But isnt that the point. What we used to "believe" Youngs double slit experiment showed is now known to only be part of the picture.
I cant see the rationality in using an example os something that we dont have a rational and coherent understanding of.
The point that the double slit experiment shows is that the way we "think " the world works is very far away from how it really works. Is light a wave, is it a particle, is it both, how can it be both at the same time. It is one of the major questions of Physics and until we know the answer and have a coherent and ratinal theory as why light, or any other particle for that matter, can be both a wave and a particle at the same time, then all that shows is how little we understand. It is the same with Special and General Relativity, there are numerous contradictions and discrepancies that are as yet unknown. Same with Quantum Theory, same with Chaos theory. Science tells us that we have a "best fit" approach at any given time, but at least it is supported by rational, coherent and logical arguments that are difficult to argue about in general principle even if the details are still unclear and being investigated.

But where is the rational, coherent and logical arguments to support the "theories" of much of what we attach to the YI, 5E, Trigrams, history, all rather dubious at best. So not even a best fit more it seems of a belief fit. Which doesnt mean that any of it is not right just that we are reliant on our beliefs and not substance and they may possibly be wrong.

Like the Elephaont picture,one of the best I have seen.

Dave

I don't want to go to the 5E discussion again. I get you need to clear something there, but if it hasn't happen by now I really don't think it will anytime soon.
All the famous TCM practitioners I like in the west use the 5E and of course all in the East do, if they couldn't convince you, me as a creature not currently practicing TCM... Can't imagine how I could when it comes to acupuncture...

About rationality, sure, we can just accept we don't know everything and look for the best fit, but still using the scientific method. At the same time we can just not look for what the west would consider rational and coherent view, as we already are aware it will be flawed very heavily and instead look at what is getting results then try to figure out "why" its getting results.
While parts of the science will still be there, it could also lead us to tarot, or to hoʻoponopono or to Yi Jing, or to many other things and while it will rarely be rational on the first look and even less so coherent, it will be a lot more fun as a path to take.

Somewhat the idea of getting out of the comfort zone when it comes to rationality. I would say very few of the most powerful systems I had the chances to practice would be consider rational by most people(including the Yi Jing or the parts of TCM I'm aware of). Never stopped me. I don't get why its stopping you.

Its all your choice at the end. As I said, your rationality is not my rationality, so even if we were setting rational as the end task that can never be objective.

Just a reminder to all, please consider the original posting:


I believe the idea is that we can all share our suggestions, without long, drawn out judgements. If I or anyone else has a problem, or issue, or wants to further discuss the merits of a particular suggestion, consider starting a thread of your own: there are already threads about Five elements, yi and the tarot, what does it mean to 'understand' the Yi? - among many others.

I think this would help things stay on topic at bit (understanding that threads roam no matter what we do).

Best, D.

Hi Gmulii

You said:

"In my view "rationality" is subjective. Coherence is always evolving.
And logic is overrated, its similar to the probability theory in the other topic - it can do awesome job with the info you feed it, but there are so many ways to approach what to feed it, that with the same amount of circumstances people will arrive at a different conclusion, as we can again see in the other topic. Then we get to what conclusion is "right" and that is just not how it works, as then the inevitable question is "right for what".

But isnt that the point, rationality shouldnt be subjective, if it is subjective then it isnt rational, as anything and everything that is subjective is just our individual perspective and there is nothing rational about a single persons viewpoint. It doesnt meant that there shouldnt be a subjective component that might validate the rational view, but that rational is one that is greater than any subjective viewpoint, regardless of if that is a single persons view or 10's of thousands, if it is subjective for all it is not rational.

Our understanding and awareness of coherence may always be evolving, but the coherence itself is part of any underlying "principles". When we strike a note on a guitar and then another it is coherent when it resonantes, That is an inherent quality. Our evolving understanding of why that happens is an entirely different issue.

Logic is not just about what is "fed" in. Take the thought experiments that Einstein made famous. Logical, but being thought experiments nothing really to "feed in". Of course even in an extremely limited view of logic, as information to be fed in, the evaluation of that information, to see if it is rational, coherent or even logical in its own right, is an imporatant part of any logical analysis.
So the question of if 5E is valid, if Trigrams are valid, if the scholastic interpretations of the Yi are valid, if the methods used to cast readings are valid, is the first consideration of any logical analysis. If the informatin that we feed in cannot be shown to have logicality about it, then the results of any "logical" analysis fail miserably.

As you saty the inevitable question is "right for what", which brings it neatly back to the questions of how, why and what the Yi is as without that we cannot even begin to address the questions of right or what.

Dave

hmesker said:

Although most visitors of this discussion board will probably not read German I would nevertheless put Dennis Schilling's Yijing in the spotlight (https://www.amazon.de/Yijing-Buch-Wandlungen-Dennis-Schilling/dp/3458700161/). I have not yet found it's equal in any other language. It is well-researched with copious amount of endnotes and explanations of the translator's choices for a certain translation. But most important:

It has a ribbon. Nothing can beat a book with a ribbon.

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Schilling in English!! Discovered it right now. It seems it was published 8 days ago - feels like a miracle that I was searching for it now.
Just buy it and start reading!!!

I can read German, but got annoyed with again googletranslating a word into the right one, even though I knew what it meant.
No idea if this one has a ribbon, I ordered it 15 minutes ago at bookdepository.com

heylise said:

Schilling in English!! Discovered it right now. It seems it was published 8 days ago - feels like a miracle that I was searching for it now.

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Thanks LiSe. Let us know how your think it 'translates' from the German to the English. And also tell us about it's contents: does it include all the "endnotes and explanations" of the original?

And for us US-based folk, it's also on Amazon; https://www.amazon.com/Ching-Changes-Great-Works-Shape/dp/1839641495

Based on Harmen's recommendation, I too tried to Google Translate my way into Schilling, but it did not work out, in part because it took so long and also because I can't really trust Google.

Harmen called me and warned me - this is not Schilling's book, he just wrote the foreword! It is a translation of Legge.
Sorry!!! And don't buy it unless you want Legge.

Freedda said:

Thanks LiSe. Let us know how your think it 'translates' from the German to the English. And also tell us about it's contents: does it include all the "endnotes and explanations" of the original?

And for us US-based folk, it's also on Amazon; https://www.amazon.com/Ching-Changes-Great-Works-Shape/dp/1839641495

Based on Harmen's recommendation, I too tried to Google Translate my way into Schilling, but it did not work out, in part because it took so long and also because I can't really trust Google.

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If you have trouble with anything, ask me. I am of Swiss origin, and my German dates from long ago, but reading it is not difficult, apart from some words. I can see if Google has it right.
My reason for wanting it in English is most of all because English seems closer to Chinese. Dutch is a language of merchants, everything has to be to the point and certain. Chinese is never certain, characters have a whole landscape of meanings. German is a bit better than Dutch, but not that much. English is easier, or maybe only for me because my English is not perfect, and for me leaves space for interpretation. It is maybe a bit like cheating, using a language which is a bit vague here and there, but it seems other people have no problems with my guesswork.

I've really only come back to the I Ching very recently, over the last month or two. In that time, the resources that I've discovered that I think are most useful are:

1. Hilary's Language of Change, because it doesn't give much commentary, except for the discussion of what particular words and phrases might mean. I like the fact that it encourages you to look at the Oracle, Image and Lines without being told what they mean.

2. Balkin's The Law of Change, for exactly the opposite reason. I like his simple, easy to understand commentaries. Perhaps he's a little bit too confident that he understands, a bit too prescriptive. Perhaps it is better to deal with the ambiguity. But even so, I tend to read his commentaries first when I'm actually trying to make sense of a hexagram as applied to a question, particularly if I'm feeling a bit lazy. Wilhelm is still better for actual study of a hexagram.

3. Harmen's YiTube channel, for his delightful approach to using the trigrams to understand a hexagram. And for challenging many of my ideas about what the Yi actually is.

4. Mandate of Heaven. It's great for the myths and stories around the Yi Ching, and for historical context.

I feel exactly the same way about Balkin: everything intelligently explained and accounted for, nothing left mysterious. Very well done, and a refreshing contrast to many other books (I think of him as the anti-Karcher), only... maybe the oracle isn't quite like that?

Look out for Harmen's articles, too, and any time he is talking about the text.

Mandate of Heaven is one of my favourites - it had a huge influence on me when I first read it, introducing me to all these stories that lurk just below the surface. It's a whole, distinct way Yi creates meaning, and it changes readings completely. And… some of his scholarship is a little flakey and should be taken with a pinch of salt. For instance, those are almost certainly sunspots in Hexagram 55, not a constellation visible during an eclipse. However, imo this doesn't make much difference to the core realisation that we need to tell the story of Yu the Great when we cast 8 (or 39, I think), of Wu at Feng when we cast 55, and so on.