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jesed

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Hi everyone

Does anybody know about a modern version of the Li Ki?

My "newer" reference is Legge :eek:

I know that Bernhard Karlgren made some "Glosses on the Li Ki", but seems to be unavailable

Thanks
 
ewald

ewald

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Hi Jesed,
I googled a bit, and found this list of translations at http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/history/elman/ClassBib/09class.htm#9-3 :

  • [*] Biot, Edouard, Le Tcheou-Li ou Rites des Tcheou. Paris: L'imprimerie Nationale, 1851.
    [*] Couvreur, S., Li Ki. Ho Kien Fan: Imprimerie de la Mission Catholique, 1913.
    [*] Karlgren, Bernhard, "The Early History of the Chou Li and Tso Chuan Texts." BMFEA 3 (1931) 1-59.
    [*] Legge, James, The Texts of Confucianism. Li Ki. Oxford, 1885.
    [*] Shurai sakuin 周 禮 索 引 (Index to the Rites of Chou). Compiled by Noma Fumichika. Fukuoka-shi: Chugoku shoten, 1989.
    [*] Steele, John, The I-li or Book of Etiqette and Ceremonial. London: Probsthain, 1917.
    [*] Wilhelm, Richard, Li Gi, Das Buch der Sitte des alteren und Jungeren Dai. Jena: Eugen Diederichs, 1930.
There is a modern translation by Ch'u Chai.

http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/hbcanonru-u.html lists:
MÜLLER, Max (ed.) 1875-1925 The sacred books of the East. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Reprinted 1966 Delhi: Motilal Banarsidas. 50 volumes. Geisel Library: RL1010 .S3

http://www.meaning.ca/pdf/2000proceedings/elaine_pang.pdf mentions:
Book of Rites. (1967). In Book of Rites (Li Chi), translated by C. Chu and W.
Chu, (2 Volumes). New Hyde Park, New York: University Books.
 
H

hmesker

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ewald said:
  • Legge, James, The Texts of Confucianism. Li Ki. Oxford, 1885.
There is a modern translation by Ch'u Chai.

http://www.meaning.ca/pdf/2000proceedings/elaine_pang.pdf mentions:
Book of Rites. (1967). In Book of Rites (Li Chi), translated by C. Chu and W.
Chu, (2 Volumes). New Hyde Park, New York: University Books.
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As far as I know ( I don't have the book) there is only one complete English translation of the Li Ji, and that is the translation by James Legge. The books by Ch'u Chai and Winberg Chai (also known as C. Chu and W. Chu) are new editions of James Legge's work with introductions by these two authors, see for instance their version of the Yijing as published by Bantam Books. In other words, they are not new translations, it is just the work of Legge with added material.

As is said on this site: The only English translation of the text is still that of James Legge.

Harmen.
 
J

jesed

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Hi Ewald and Harmen

Thank you both. I was really waiting to hear from you. This is helpful; I wonder if there could be any modern scholar that would like to take the task to update this transaltion.

Another question. I hadn't read anything from Karlgren. I know that he wrote several books about etimology of Ancient Chinese.

So, maybe you can have an idea about his work (in the field of etimology at least) Any thought?

Best wishes
 
H

hmesker

Guest
Hi Jesed,

Why would you want a new translation of the Li Ji? What is wrong or lacking in Legge's translation?

About Karlgren: I only have his famous Grammata Serica Recensa, which for a long time has been a standard reference for the etymology of Chinese characters. But his work is getting outdated, the terse descriptions he gives of the OBI form are not always accurate. I think he has done a good job in trying to find the archaic pronounciation of characters; as a dictionary it is not very useful though because he only gives the accepted translations of a character in the context of specific literature like the Shijing, Shangshu, Zuozhuan etc. Very often though there are a lot more alternatives.

Oh, I remember I also have Karlgren's Sound and Symbol in Chinese, which is a general introduction in the history and peculiarities of the Chinese language. Nice to read.

Harmen.
 
ewald

ewald

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hmesker said:
Why would you want a new translation of the Li Ji? What is wrong or lacking in Legge's translation?
Click to expand...
For one, I personally found that I'd want to translate the Zhouyi and also the Shijing (from which I did 8 odes) quite differently from Legge's. So I see no reason to trust Legge's version of the Book of Rites.

Compare for instance Legge's translation and mine of Ode 239:
______________________________________

Legge's translation:

Look at the foot of the Han,
How abundantly grow the hazel and the arrow-thorn !
Easy and self-possessed was our prince,
In his pursuit of dignity [still] easy and self-possessed !

Massive is that libation-cup of jade,
With the yellow liquid [sparkling] in it.
Easy and self-possessed was our prince,
The fit recipient of blessing and dignity.

The hawk flies up to heaven ;
The fishes leap in the deep.
Easy and self-possessed was our-prince ; –
Did he not exert an influence upon men ?

His clear spirits are in vessel ;
His red bull is ready ; –
To offer, to sacrifice,
To increase his bright happiness.

Thick grow the oaks and the yu,
Which the people use for fuel.
Easy and self-possessed was our prince,
Cheered and encouraged by the Spirits.

Luxuriant are the dolichos and other creepers,
Clinging to the branches and stems,
Easy and self-possessed was our prince,
Seeking for happiness by no crooked ways.
______________________________________

My translation:

Looking up that dried foot of the hill,
hazel, arrow-thorn, help, help!
Why, younger brother of the Nobel One,
does the dryness make you happy? Why, younger brother?

Majestic is this jade libation cup,
with a yellow division in the middle.
Why, younger brother of the Nobel One,
being happy, happy about the downward direction?

The flying hawk goes up to the sky,
The fish jump to the depths.
Why, younger brother of the Nobel One,
despite your years you don't act like a man?

Arranging wine is already finished,
the bay stallion is already prepared.
In order to enjoy, in order to celebrate,
in order to assist an image of happiness.

Majestic is this tree and shrub,
the people set the place on fire.
Why, younger brother of the Nobel One,
do the gods set the place to work.

In no way, in no way, a cup of dolichos,
but administer a number of stalks.
Why, younger brother of the Nobel One,
does the search for happiness not reply.
______________________________________

Is it just me, or did Legge totally miss the point?
 
H

hmesker

Guest
ewald said:
For one, I personally found that I'd want to translate the Zhouyi and also the Shijing (from which I did 8 odes) quite differently from Legge's. So I see no reason to trust Legge's version of the Book of Rites.
Click to expand...
But the Li Ji is quite a different book than the Yijing or the Shijing. I don't think you can say that because you don't like his Yi and Shi translations you will also not like his Li Ji translation. I think you have to see it first to be able to judge it.

Compare for instance Legge's translation and mine of Ode 239:

*knip*

Is it just me, or did Legge totally miss the point?
Click to expand...

He didn't, he just followed the mainstream and tried to make a readable translation. But you try to translate more literally, which gives awkward sentences like 'hazel, arrow-thorn, help, help! '. You also choose meanings which only would be right within another context. Di 弟 indeed means 'younger brother', but seen in the context of the sentence '豈弟君子、于祿豈弟' this is most likely not the case, because 豈弟 seems to be a fixed expression which has as pronounciation kaiti; see Mathews 6201 and 544-a and 漢語大詞典 9.1345-A and -B. 豈弟 is described as '和樂平易', 'harmonious, happy and amiable'. The phrase '豈弟君子' occurs in quite some places in the Shijing, like in M251: '豈弟君子、民之父母', and translating it here like 'Why, younger brother of the Nobel One' does not make any sense to me.

Translating old Chinese like that in the Yi and in the Shi is not easy. You need good references that can help you you with the many, many decisions you have to make, and even then it is easy to go astray. Considering the day and age of Legge's time I think he did a good job.

Harmen.
 
ewald

ewald

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There sure are several details that could be worded better in my translation, and it is certainly not in a state ready for publishing. It does get the point across, however.

Overall, you will not be able to convince me that Legge didn't totally miss the emotional content of Ode 239. This is about a younger brother who doesn't seem to care about the harvest that may get lost because of the drought, and instead just cares about making fun. I find this theme throughout this ode. Legge's translation is about how nice and great everything is, which makes quite a superficial impression on me.

I do think that Legge did a good job considering the time he lived in, and we certainly owe him a lot. But today a better translation is possible. There are more and better dictionaries available, more work has been done on translating ancient Chinese. Legge's work is some 120 years old, you know. Sure, the Liji is a different animal than the Zhouyi or the Shijing. It's more recent and has a more accessible style. But I really don't need to first study and translate the Liji in detail to say with some certainty that a better translation is likely to be possible today, considering what I've seen of how Legge translated ancient Chinese.
 
H

hmesker

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ewald said:
Overall, you will not be able to convince me that Legge didn't totally miss the emotional content of Ode 239. This is about a younger brother who doesn't seem to care about the harvest that may get lost because of the drought, and instead just cares about making fun. I find this theme throughout this ode. Legge's translation is about how nice and great everything is, which makes quite a superficial impression on me.
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Maybe, but what about all the other poems where 豈弟君子 is used? Do they also deal with a careless younger brother? This seems highly unlikely, after all, '豈弟'(with or without '君子') seems to be a fixed expression.

I do think that Legge did a good job considering the time he lived in, and we certainly owe him a lot. But today a better translation is possible. There are more and better dictionaries available, more work has been done on translating ancient Chinese. Legge's work is some 120 years old, you know.
Click to expand...
Yes, but age that does not necessarily make a translation false or wrong. I am sure that a better translation is possible, but I doubt that a better translation will change our understanding of the Li Ji. I think what we need more is a description of all the things that are described in the Li Ji, like rituals, habits, history, etc.

Sure, the Liji is a different animal than the Zhouyi or the Shijing. It's more recent and has a more accessible style. But I really don't need to first study and translate the Liji in detail to say with some certainty that a better translation is likely to be possible today, considering what I've seen of how Legge translated ancient Chinese.
Click to expand...
I think you should approach every translation by Legge without prejudice. Judging his complete oeuvre negatively just because you don't like a few translations of him is in my opinion a attitude which does not help to acknowledge the good things that he did. His translations are helpful, just because you want to do it different :).

Harmen.
 
ewald

ewald

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hmesker said:
Maybe, but what about all the other poems where 豈弟君子 is used? Do they also deal with a careless younger brother? This seems highly unlikely, after all, '豈弟'(with or without '君子') seems to be a fixed expression.
Click to expand...
I see your point. I wasn't aware of the possibility of this being an expression going beyond the literal meaning. I guess you convinced me after all that this ode may not be about what I thought it was.
 
H

hmesker

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ewald said:
I see your point. I wasn't aware of the possibility of this being an expression going beyond the literal meaning. I guess you convinced me after all that this ode may not be about what I thought it was.
Click to expand...
Well, that's okay, isn't it? Never trust a translator of old Chinese who never adjusts his own translation :p .

Harmen.
 
J

jesed

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Hi Harmen

hmesker said:
I am sure that a better translation is possible, but I doubt that a better translation will change our understanding of the Li Ji. I think what we need more is a description of all the things that are described in the Li Ji, like rituals, habits, history, etc.
Click to expand...

This is the core theme in my interest.
Looking for a modern translation (in case it exist), but most of all, looking for deeper understanding at the light of modern knowledgement.

I think that modern knowledgement (historical, linguistic, archelogical...) is inlightening to understand and apply Yi Jing; but is not used in the same proportion to understand other classics.

And, in the tradition where I belong, the practice of Yi Jing is close-linked with the practice of Li Ki; so, my guess is that a modern comprehension of Li Ki could help modern people to improve their practice of Yi Ji without the need to belong to "traditional circles".

Of course, I'm not saying that a modern people would have benefits in his/her Yi's practice by making a Spring sacrifice as Chineses did... But a modern comprehension of Li Ki could give us the roots of that practices without the branches of cultural off-date rituals.

As Li Ki said:

The rules as instituted by the ancient kings had their radical element and their outward and elegant form. A true heart and good faith are their radical element. The characteristics of each according to the idea of what is right in it are its outward and elegant form: Without the radical element, they could not have been established; without the elegant form, they could not have been put in practice.
The rites should be suitable to the season, taken from the resources supplied by the ground, in accordance with the spirits, and agreeable to the minds of men;-according to the characteristics of all things

If the form is not in accordance with our times and circumstances, the rule cann't be put in practice; so we can change the form keeping the root and adapating it to our times.

By the way, one of the troubles of Neo-Confucionism (in my very subjective opinion) is that they forget the radical element.. so the rules became an external-moral sistem.

Best wishes
 
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J

jesed

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Hi Lindsay

I did mention why reading Li Ki, not as a fact but as a guess:

jesed said:
And, in the tradition where I belong, the practice of Yi Jing is close-linked with the practice of Li Ki; so, my guess is that a modern comprehension of Li Ki could help modern people to improve their practice of Yi Ji without the need to belong to "traditional circles".
Click to expand...

best wishes
 
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lindsay

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Jesed, I think you'll find the Li Ki rather "traditional," although that term seems to be a code word for you. I'm afraid your explanation flew over my head. Ordinary readers might be interested to know the Li Ki is an early Han encyclopedia of ancient Chinese religion, morality, and decorum - a sort of Chinese Book of Leviticus. Two chapters of the Li Ki - the Zhongyong (Doctrine of the Mean) and the Daxue (Great Learning) - were later removed to become stand-alone Confucian scriptures as part of the very important "Four Books" (the Torah of Confucianism).

The relationship of the religious practices and customs described in the Li Ki to the ancient Zhou world of the Zhouyi is problematical, to say the least. A few lifetimes could be spent sorting it out.

While you're studying the Li Ki, perhaps you should also look at this link too. It's a pdf bibliography of 376 pages with over 5,000 entries called "Ancient Chinese Civilization: Bibliography of Materials in Western Languages" by Paul R. Goldin at the University of Chicago. Somebody has probably already posted it before on Clarity, but there may be some poor soul who will enjoy looking through it.

http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/earlychina/res/bib/Ancient_Chinese_Civilization_Bibliography.pdf

I know this bibliography is way off-topic - Hilary can give me the boot if she wants. I spend too much time here anyway. Adios.

Lindsay
 
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lindsay

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Just a quick tip: If you decide to download Paul Goldin's big bibliography, be sure to use Harmen's link, not mine. Harmen's link (Paul Goldin's homepage) offers a newer, updated version. And, as Harmen says, the other bibliographies Goldin offers from his homepage are interesting too.

L.
 
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