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Duke of Zhou on oracle bones?!

sanderp

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I dont know if anyone has read this:
http://www.chinaheritagenewsletter.org/articles.php?searchterm=002_controv.inc&issue=002

Some quotes:
In March 2004, a joint team from Peking University and the Shaanxi Provincial Archaeology Institute began excavating at Zhougongmiao and within a fairly short space of time discovered 760 more oracle bones, of which 80 bore inscriptions. Three bore the name "Duke of Zhou", the first time his name has appeared in any oracle bone inscriptions.

With the discovery of building bricks and a tamped earth surrounding wall, it was clear that this was the highest ranking Western Zhou cemetery found to date in China, and was possibly the first royal cemetery of the period to have been discovered. The veteran archaeologist Zou Heng suggested that this was possibly the family cemetery of the Duke of Zhou himself, the man who established the political institutions of the Zhou dynasty. Others suggested that it could be a cemetery of the Zhou kings.

Zhang Zhongpei, [...], believed that haste was inappropriate at Zhougongmiao. However, another school of thought argued that the site was difficult to secure from tomb robbers, and, as the area had been subject to tomb robbery from early in the twentieth century onwards, it was wisest to proceed with the excavation as quickly as possible. More than 80% of excavations conducted in China are categorised as "salvage" excavations, and if a tomb is found to have been robbed, a salvage excavation is almost invariably approved if costs permit. SACH relented on the Zhougongmiao case by striking a compromise; in September 2004, SACH approved the excavation of two tombs only, in order to shed further light on the nature of the cemetery as a whole.

In October, the excavation of tombs nos. 32 and 18 began. Although tomb no. 32 had been extensively damaged by tomb robbers, tomb no. 18, with four entrance passages, seemed untouched. However, in December the team discovered three holes made by robbers in tomb no. 18. All is now quiet on the Western Zhou front at Zhougongmiao for the time being.


Pretty amazing i would say. If it reaully turns out to be a royal zhou cemetery, maybe there are also texts inside the thombs, that can shed light on how to translate the zhouyi. Maybe even a original zhouyi!

Does anyone know something more about this? Or does anyone know of pictures of the oracle bones found at this site?

Sander
 

bradford

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I'm rilly rilly looking forward to getting a facsimile copy of Zhou Gong's Unabridged Dictionary of Early Zhou Chinese, to go along with that Zhouyi First Edition.
 

lindsay

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Yes, I'm hoping archeologists will soon find the original cocktail napkins the Duke used to sketch out the first draft. And old Wen's prison notes, too.

In all seriousness, this probably isn't a good time to spend a lot of time reconstructing the original Yi. Who remembers the dozens of learned scholars who tried to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics before the discovery of the Rosetta Stone? A bit of Hexagram 5 may be in order these days.
 
C

cjgait

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Much Known, Much More to Go

lindsay said:
Yes, I'm hoping archeologists will soon find the original cocktail napkins the Duke used to sketch out the first draft. And old Wen's prison notes, too.

In all seriousness, this probably isn't a good time to spend a lot of time reconstructing the original Yi. Who remembers the dozens of learned scholars who tried to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphics before the discovery of the Rosetta Stone? A bit of Hexagram 5 may be in order these days.

Major difference here. We are not at the point before the Rosetta stone, we are well after it. Although not all Jia Gu Wen (JGW) characters are known, most are. We have a very good grasp of Shang and Zhou inscriptions (and I'm using a large collective 'we' because I know about three JGW characters :)). The possibility of discovering more material from the Zhou royal tombs, if that's what they are, is fundamentally important. Perhaps it can lay to rest the old controversy of the authorship of the Yi. Many people have been in the habit of dismissing traditions from Chinese history, only to discover that the tradition was based on fact. Perhaps the tomb robbers have destroyed everything. But if we have 80 characters already and many tombs unexcavated, there is hope that there are more oracle bones. Happily the bones represent little or no value to robbers, save perhaps to make into medicine as was the case when the first An Yang bones were found. The possibilities make me glad to be born in this period of Yi Xue.:bows:
 

sanderp

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lindsay:
I agree with you that it's questionable whether or not we could easily translate/understand the original Zhouyi. But at least we will know how much has been added and changed. I was also assuming (but did not write this in my first post) that Zhou commentaries on the Zhouyi and/or diviniatory records may be found as well. These could clarify how the Zhou thought about what the Zhouyi discribes.

It seams that it's a question whether you think that:
a. the Zhou knew exactly what they were writing about, and this message was somehow lost/altered (by scribal errors, transcriptions into newer forms of chinese script, misinterpretions etc.), or
b. that the Zhou made a first (but not succesfull) attempt to write something down, which was then 'expanded' or improved on as time went by.

In my opinion the first option is true. And so any texts discoverd at the Zhou cemetary would bring us closer to the original meaning of the Zhouyi.

That doesn't mean though, that i think that the learned scholars do a very good job with translating the Zhouyi. But thats a whole different subject : )
 

lindsay

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Hi Sander!

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clearer. I do have a healthy skepticism for current reconstructions of the Zhouyi, but I'm optimistic - even a little bit excited - that new archeological discoveries will soon broaden our understanding of the Yi.

I say "broaden" instead of "deepen" because I think a complicated picture will eventually emerge, and I am not sure archeology can give us the deep insight into the evolution of Zhou divination many of us hope for.

Here are a few reasons I think we will see more complexity rather than less:

(1) Anyone who reads the Yi in the same way we read an ordinary book can see it is a composite work, cobbled together from many bits and pieces. Where did all this material come from, why was it selected for divination, and who pulled it together and edited the Yi into its more or less final form? These are hard questions to answer under any circumstances, but it would be remarkably interesting if we found evidence for the some of the sources of the Yi.

(2) As you probably know, one of the great shortcomings of the oracle bone inscriptions is they do not sound anything like the Yi texts. We know, even well into historical times, that the turtle-shell oracle was considered entirely different from the yarrow-stalk oracle. I think bone-cracking represents a separate tradition of divination, and that using the Shang OBI to shed light on the Yi is suspect. The points of difference outweigh the points of similarity. To find divination evidence in the Yi tradition would clarify its relationship (or lack of relationship) to the blood-and-gore practices of the Shang.

(3) We think, from not entirely reliable sources, other divination methods existed similar to the Yi. The "Lianshan" and "Guicang" systems supposedly used the same 64 hexagrams. Possibly these were yarrow-stalk manuals belonging to other dukedoms (Jin and Song have been suggested - See Rutt 26-27) just as the Yi belonged to Zhou. It would be wonderful to find definite evidence for hexagram systems pre-dating the Warring States period. On the other hand, it is possible the hexagram system was an accident, a fortuitious derivation from a kind of diviner's shorthand used to record and remember readings.

(4) The Yi almost certainly existed in oral form before being written down, or so many believe. Rhyming material in the Yi, along with formulaic and repetitive texts, are the hallmarks of oral literature. It would be interesting to know how old the Yi really is. Some people speculate the Yi sprang from shamanistic roots, but there aren't many shamanistic elements in the Yi as we have it. My guess is the Yi grew out of ideas from an entirely different quarter. There is a connection between record-keeping and divination in the court officials known as the shi3, and it would be interesting to know a lot more about this group of literate people. We may discover the Yi had no history at all as oral literature, but was composed by one person or one group of people out of bits and pieces of then ancient text. There is good precedence for this in the ancient world. One example is the Daodejing, another is the epic of Gilgamesh, but there are many more.

(5) Where did all the philosophy behind the Yi come from? You know: yin/yang, correlative theory, mathematical aspects of the hexagram system, trigrams, sequential pairing, and so on. Should all of that be laid at the doorstep of the Han? As though Zhou people never had a thought in their heads! Plenty of room for some light on this subject. Again, one might see the influence of literati like the shi3, always poking around, asking questions, finding patterns, spinning theories. You know the type, people like those dreadful academic intellectuals so many people on this forum despise. I could see people like that inventing the Yi a lot sooner than trance-crazed mystical shamans who bathe every other year and eat toads. Even today, a good many intellectuals are obsessed with gaining knowledge from divination, only today it's called modelling, forecasting, scientific prediction, future studies, risk management, statistical analysis, survey research. In what way is the Yi different?

(6) The big question about divination, as in all other things in history, is cui bono? who benefits? Who wants to know the conventionally unknowable enough to devise and use a system like the Yi? The only thing worth the trouble is ... power. Power through knowledge. Nobody invented the Yi to help out the love-lorn or the job-seeker. The Yi came out of the same world as Sun Tzu, a world of fatally important questions and complex, elusive answers. Sort of like the "real" world today, the world of generals and politicians, corporate executives and university presidents, bishops and imams. Big stakes, big risks. Sorting that out was what the Yi was probably for under the Zhou. Who benefitted from having the answers? The shi3 did. Or that's my idea. But archeology may help, the science of analyzing old material objects. Luckily the powerful were also the tomb-builders and scribe-patrons. We may have some answers yet.

Lindsay
 

hilary

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lindsay said:
The big question about divination, as in all other things in history, is cui bono? who benefits? Who wants to know the conventionally unknowable enough to devise and use a system like the Yi? The only thing worth the trouble is ... power. Power through knowledge.
Lindsay, did you see the thread where someone asked Yi, "Who do we speak to when we divine?"? To the startlement of quite a few people, Yi answered 34, unchanging.
 

stevev

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Sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory …

lindsay said:
You know the type, people like those dreadful academic intellectuals so many people on this forum despise. I could see people like that inventing the Yi a lot sooner than trance-crazed mystical shamans who bathe every other year and eat toads.

but that's the funniest think I've read all day.
 

Sparhawk

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Funny, yes...

stevev said:
but that's the funniest think I've read all day.

But also very true...

L
 

stevev

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I've got a three word mantra ...

Yin And Yang.

I think it's history and it's origins are both facinating, and one of the reasons I like it so much, but isn't it more important what it's become, that's why I like it the most.
 
B

bruce_g

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Originally Posted by lindsay
You know the type, people like those dreadful academic intellectuals so many people on this forum despise. I could see people like that inventing the Yi a lot sooner than trance-crazed mystical shamans who bathe every other year and eat toads.
------------------------------------------------

That depends on the intellectual and the crazed shaman. They don't necessarily have to be separate. Even if they were separate individuals it seems reasonable for them to converge. One would almost think they had to.

Btw, I don't know anyone here who despises intellectuals. Not even us toad eaters.
 

bradford

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ya don't Eat toads, ya big sillies
ya lick them, or smoke their venom
 

Sparhawk

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bradford said:
ya don't Eat toads, ya big sillies
ya lick them, or smoke their venom

You are showing your years, Brad... :D Nowadays everybody goes for the quick fixes... Those were the days: artisan drugs... LOL

L
 

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