If you are so inclined, please let me know what you make of getting hexagram 48.2.5>15 when asking how best to proceed with adult stepdaughters. They are deliberately hurtful toward their new stepmother of about 18 months, and hound their father for money without offering anything in return. This woman is getting tired of being assigned to the "wicked stepmother" role...

Rinda

rinda said:

If you are so inclined, please let me know what you make of getting hexagram 48.2.5>15 when asking how best to proceed with adult stepdaughters. They are deliberately hurtful toward their new stepmother of about 18 months, and hound their father for money without offering anything in return. This woman is getting tired of being assigned to the "wicked stepmother" role...

Rinda

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Hi Rinda. Nice to hear from you.

I think this is saying to reach deeper into yourself. Not that you should cave to their demands or treatment, but that your own demands and treatment "spring" from the very best part of you.

The whole "stepdaughter/stepmother" term just seems wrong somehow. From Snow White on, it casts an evil shadow over the relationship. So maybe rather than use those terms for one another, something more 15 may work better.. more like "team".

Be the well, a pure, clear source, for her.
And find the well, to fulfil your destiny.

Forgive me if this sounds weird or offensive, its just I relate 48,2 (only through some experience) with someone who has the resources to give, not giving. So when you say the daughters are 'hounding' the father for money it makes me wonder why. Is this really 'hounding' or do they think they are legitimately owed something ? 15 also about balancing, weighing what is too much with too little. Is there possibly some reason unknown to the stepmother why the daughters have cause to make these demands ?

It could look like a situation where something needs to be given for fairness.

The Well is about self developement. If we don't take care of ourselves, we can't help anyone else. 48.2 is a person who is not yet self-sufficient. Is this the daughters' legitimately needing help from Dad to get up and running? Or is it the new marrage that is not yet solid enough to handle these requests without feeling tested and drained? Whatever, it sounds to me like a situation where there needs to be clearer structure. Do the husband and the new wife have a budget? Bottomline, 48.2 suggests these continual requests are not only draining the Well, but also are not serving a real purpose, that is I suspect the money given is not spent in a way that is of any real help to the daughter's situations. The good news is 48.5 suggests the potential for Dad and the family being of real help to each other. Perhaps by refusing to give money just to silence demands, but instead really getting involved with his children's lives, finding out WHY they are in such continual financial streights, the father will be able to help them become self sufficient and we'll all live happily ever after, 15.

As to what the new wife's attitude should be, I would see 48.2 as saying she hasn't been around long enough to be able to understand or heal all the murky family issues here. 15 advises the superior man to reduce what is too much and augment what is to little. this makes me feel with Trojan that there is a need to be very fair here. Also perhaps 15 is advising her to balance just how much time she should spend with the women, perhaps none if they are cruel to her. By keeping in mind that 48.5 does hold out a promise for eventually her good intentions being recognized she may better be able to avoid being drained by the current drama.

There is a book, Smart Couples Finish Rich, that helps couples talk about money.

rinda said:

If you are so inclined, please let me know what you make of getting hexagram 48.2.5>15 when asking how best to proceed with adult stepdaughters. They are deliberately hurtful toward their new stepmother of about 18 months, and hound their father for money without offering anything in return. This woman is getting tired of being assigned to the "wicked stepmother" role...Rinda

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Hi Rinda-
If line 39.5 were to appear in your interpretation here, would that be helpul in understanding the answer? That's the "Transitional Hexagram".

It would seem to suggest taking a stand against this sort of abuse with allies at her side, but only at a well-timed moment when the abuse was particularly unfair and obvious.

The girls were raised to expect that all their needs would be met with no action or compensation or even thanks needed or expected on their part - all was given to them, they were never asked to help around the house, even in the most minor ways, their laundry was done, even in one case their homework was done, their spending money provided lavishly, their own apartment (plus expenses) when they got tired of living at home...

They are 25 and 22 now, and are still dependent on their parents. I've never expected nor asked them to call me by anything except my given name. (The older two - my contribution to our current family - call my husband "Dad", and my grandaughters call him Grampa and he loves it.) The younger two have each used up an educational trust fund starting classes that they seemed not to intend to finish - they would drop out of a class as soon as their grades got below an A.... The 25 year old still has a year of classes to go before she gets her bachelor's (traditionally one's 13-16 years of school usually finished by the time one is 21) if she doesn't drop anything. The 22 year old has yet to finish a basic basic basic english composition class because her mother did all her high school english homework for her. She won't get tutoring and ignored my offer to help her figure it out the last time she attempted it.

Their sense of entitlement is vast and the circumstance that engendered it goes against everything I believe about raising children. I believe that this kind of behavior on the part of parents is a kind of abuse, it does not prepare kids for the real world. My own girls are close in age - 1 and 3 years older, respectively- and are totally independent, and work long hard hours to be that way, and have paid for their education by themselves as I was unable to help them. Their childhoods were far from ideal in many ways, and yet they are on their own and doing very well.

The financial contributions that my new husband and I each make to our household are well balanced, as I have flourished away from the influence of my ex-husband, and I find myself very angry when the younger two girls hold out their hands for money, yet treat me with disdain or worse.

During a conversation with them about 6 months ago they went ballistic at my suggesting that a simple please and thank you from them were appropriate, and were even angry when I pointed out that I had willingly agreed to the financial gifts their father and I have given them since our marriage. One's response was "that's why we don't like it - we don't want to have to worry about whether or not you will agree." If it wasn't mandatory for us to help at their whim, it was too uncomfortable for them and they were extremely angry and abusive at that !!!!

Their Dad is aware of how this makes me feel, and hates it, yet does not know any way to change their behavior. They are, after all, adult human beings with free will. He is getting much better at limiting how much is given to them, yet it still seems to me to be outrageous, especially when the adult child in question does not choose to work or to go to school. She will get a job and find herself fired after two or three weeks... runs with a crowd that has a criminal history, and worries her father and I terribly.

So yes, there is a vast sense of entitlement, and perhaps since my husband was unable or unwilling to raise them differently in the face of the will of his ex-wife, perhaps it is fair that he still helps them on occasion. It would be nice if they at least acknowledged that I have a part in that help, and would offer to help us on occasion with projects around the house or yard that are not as easy for us as we grow a bit older. Instead they choose to look at me as the cause of all their mother's troubles and as the cause of them not being supported financially by their father according to the way they were accustomed. They have no concept that their behavior towards their father was and still is to a great extent incredibly abusive and manipulative.

Sorry for dumping, and I do appreciate the helpful comments. I think things are slowly getting better, but Christmas was horrid - the girls chose to come exchange gifts with their dad when I was not there, left no small gift, not even card addressed to us together, no word of thanks for my part in helping choose and wrap and pay for gifts...

...and one of them is now asking for more money, for a medical bill and to repair her car. Dad decided to help with the medical bill and not pay for the car repairs, and this is a step in the right direction at least. I am ok with letting him decide what to give them, and he knows how much it hurts me when they are ugly with me.

I just wanted to know the best way to proceed because their attitude poisons me and makes me angry with them and with their dad, and I desperately don't want to let them do that, there's nothing they'd like better, and it goes against my nature.

Many comments offered look like they will be helpful, and I do thank you very much for them.

Rinda

rinda said:

If you are so inclined, please let me know what you make of getting hexagram 48.2.5>15 when asking how best to proceed with adult stepdaughters. They are deliberately hurtful toward their new stepmother of about 18 months, and hound their father for money without offering anything in return. This woman is getting tired of being assigned to the "wicked stepmother" role...

Rinda

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Consideration of your question indicates a situation covering issues with trust of another/others and so a focus on deep issues of security seeking and control. (Covers wind based hexagrams as it does water based.)

The water side focuses on encapsulation, a boundary is formed and covers the emotional dynamics of rejection issues and so protection, keep something/someone in or out.

The wind side focuses on the emotion of anticipation (initially of wrong doing).

In general, to dampen the rejection assert a context focused on mediation but a focus on balancing (11) rather than neutralising (12).

The infrastructure of 11 is described by 18 and so a focus overall on correcting false, corrupt, perceptions. Since the focus is on restoring equilibrium rather than instigating a win/lose situation, the mediating focus is there to do exactly that, no more.

If we combine the two trigrams we get:

wind/water = 59 and a focus on dispelling illusions
water/wind = 48 and a focus on setting down foundations in the form of source of nourishment.

The overall vibe above covers mis-conceptions suggesting a need for talk in the form of establishing trust by revealing some history, both sides need to do that and that means talk between them excluding the presence of him; the females need to establish personal relationships as peers since the stepdaughters are adults... any consideration of 'replacing mother' and so seeing oneself as 'stepmother' is not the way to go since it is obvious the lack of trust in another/others is an issue and the boundary is up, rejection is operating.

As such, one cannot step in to a mother role so one has to shift to an adult role and that demands history sharing. IOW we shift from issues of rejection (water) to acceptance (fire). The common ground here, what makes all part of the same 'gang', is 'female' and so a focus on an experienced female vs possible lack of experience (adult stepdaughters). What can she offer them not as a mother etc but as an mature female (and so elements of 53 - gradual progress through maturing includes passing on lessons learnt in that maturing but from a peer position) - this requires mediation, casual talk that can elicit sameness or an attraction of a difference. Rapport requires agreement to start with, even if the initial agreement is on something wrong.

To work on the rejection/acceptance dimension reflect on those hexagrams with water and fire as base trigrams. To then work on future developments once a degree of acceptance is reached, focus on wind based hexagrams (anticipation of wrong doing indicates a resolution is possible over time where the wrong doing is converted to right doing, cultivation and becoming influencial)

Chris.

Okay, I wasn't quite sure what the question was at first. You're wanting to know the best way to proceed. 48.2 says you have talents that are not being used. So, what you have to offer or what you give is wasted. So no more pearls before piggies! Wait for 48.5,wait and give to someone who CAN appreciate you, like your own kids.
The change to 15 emphasizes being centered and self sufficient. In this case I think it is telling you not to go out of your way for these girls. They are not your daughters, they are not even your friends, so why are you buying and wrapping gifts for them? Have as real relationship with them as you would have with any other adult. If you bought a gift for anyone else and they insulted you would you keep buying them gifts? Of course not! Do these girls the curtesy of treating them like you would any other adult. Be civil to them, but if they have demonstrated they don't wish a closer relationship, respect that. If you pick up the phone and recognize one of their voices immediately say, "Oh, you want to talk to your Daddy, I'll go get him." Don't have private conversations with them. Don't be alone in the same room with them. Then they wont have a chance to be abusive. If you do this, and remain civil, not only will you not be sucked into the Wicked Step Mother role, but if they ever do figure out it's nice to be nice you wont have a history of harsh words to overcome.

Another book you might get value from, "Co-dependant No More."

Just read and basically agree with Chris' post except I think his suggestion that one not only relate to these girls as adults but also go a step further and try to have a chat woman -to-woman is a little too optimistic. Much doubt that you'd be able to get these daughters to agree to a truce. Maybe later, but for right now I think 15 is encouraging you that you do not have to do any futher reaching out than YOU feel comfortable with.

I believe that is good advice, Rosada. I was thinking along similar lines.
There are really many wells in this situation. As wells the stepdaughters are apparently in a bad shape, they don't give much water. In other words, they don't reach their full potential.
Rinda gives water but it is not recognized or accepted. Perhaps the same is true for her husband, if his children use him mainly as a money well.
With so many wells that either don't function or are not fully used by others it's not surprising that everybody is thirsty.

In this situation it's probably best not to focus too much on what the stepdaughters don't give or receive but on ones own "well function". If they don't want the water then give it to somebody else.
But maybe they can recognize and receive other water, water that is not "mother milk", so to speak.

Rosada writes: Be civil to them, but if they have demonstrated they don't wish a closer relationship, respect that. If you pick up the phone and recognize one of their voices immediately say, "Oh, you want to talk to your Daddy, I'll go get him." Don't have private conversations with them. Don't be alone in the same room with them.

Yes, this is how I do function with them, except for the expected holiday/birthday gifts. I will wait for 48.5 should it ever arrive.

Thanks, all. I feel better, more resolved to continue in this vein.

Rinda

I'm going to venture - or risk - an unequivocal prediction on this question. Since the mention of transitional hexagrams seems to arouse no interest here (coincidentally pursuant to line 48.3) this will be a public test which interprets 39.5 as an important step towards the Authentcity represented by Gua 15. This is not a restatement of the simple question I asked earlier.

Unless this family encounters a major crisis or impasse, something an order of magnitude (ten times) more intense than anything it has yet experienced together, this uncomfortable condition will simply persist, business-as-usual. That's even with much-needed family counseling. I don't know if it needs to be a life-threatening event, but it will have to be strong enough to really rattle and shake everybody out of these games and habits, and show everybody who their real friends and family are.

There- for time to tell.

I'm finding all these analyses really insightful and interesting. I very much agree with how Rosada sees it.

I don't know what the transitional hexagram is, how it comes to 39,5. I think theres info on it here, I'll go and find out.

bradford said:

Hi Rinda-
If line 39.5 were to appear in your interpretation here, would that be helpul in understanding the answer? That's the "Transitional Hexagram".

It would seem to suggest taking a stand against this sort of abuse with allies at her side, but only at a well-timed moment when the abuse was particularly unfair and obvious.

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I am definitly interested in this, Bradford, no question about it. I'm waiting for the moment. I look at transitional hexagrams, and have always found them helpful.

Their Dad had surgery a few weeks ago, and although they asked for a time to visit when I was not there, they did bump up against me, and found it in themselves to be civil. Perhaps it scared them that they were able to do that. (They both live with their mother now, and from a couple of comments early on one of their favorite passtimes is trashing me.) I was, I think, civil and pleasant and did not "make over" them, and politely made myself scarce for awhile so they could visit alone for about a half-hour.

They are grown and not at all interested in family therapy. I understand that if I want change, it must come from inside myself, thus my work on this problem with Yi. There are times my emotions run so high I can't read it properly, thus my request for help with it. I'll let Bradford and y'all know of significant changes, confrontations with allies at my side if they arise. It may be awhile, so don't hold your breath...

Rinda

trojan said:

I don't know what the transitional hexagram is, how it comes to 39,5. I think theres info on it here, I'll go and find out.

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You simply look at each change line's transition. So 48.2 would reflect 39.2. LiSe's Yi index page is especially handy for quick referencing this.

Martin, "mother's milk", exactly. Establishing friends would work better, imo.

Whenever you are unfairly judged by someone, the answer can't be found in them.

bruce_g said:

You simply look at each change line's transition. So 48.2 would reflect 39.2. LiSe's Yi index page is especially handy for quick referencing this.

.

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48.2 would reflect 39.2 ? Well that would be the fan yao wouldn't it ? Or is that just another word for it ? But 48,5 doesn't transit to 39, 5 ? So still don't see where 39.5 comes from with this reading. Can't even see it anywhere..but I know when I do this is gonna be one of those times when I do this cos its been obvious all along and then I'll do this Hey I'll get there lol

trojan said:

48.2 would reflect 39.2 ? Well that would be the fan yao wouldn't it ? Or is that just another word for it ? But 48,5 doesn't transit to 39, 5 ? So still don't see where 39.5 comes from with this reading. Can't even see it anywhere..but I know when I do this is gonna be one of those times when I do this cos its been obvious all along and then I'll do this Hey I'll get there lol

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ooh, maybe I'm not understanding then.

Maybe Brad meant to say 48.2?

No-
From 48.2 to 39.2 is not a transitional hexagram. 39.2 is the fan yao of 48.2
For 48.2,5 you simply change the bottom line first, leaving you with 39.5
Then read and change that and you have arrived at 15

My biggest concern here is actually the sub-text of 37.3 (Family)
(just a Yijing reference, not part of any divination technique)

Family members scolded severely
Regrettable harshness
Yet opportune
But wife and child smirking and mocking
Ends in disgrace

The text is supposed to get us asking the question: why is this?
You can get through scolding and harshness, but not smirking and mocking?
Because in the family, even peace is not as important as respect.
Without respect you have nothing to build on, a well nobody cares to repair

Rinda- do I remember correctly that you are a therapist yourself?
If so do you have the advice of a colleague?

What is the qualitative difference (for the conclusions regarding the divination) when you use the steps to go :
48.2 (39)= first stage, 48.5 (46)= second stage, 15= ideal/potential stage

versus using steps to go :
48.2 (39), 39.5 (15)

Obviously, when 48.2 changes you have 39; and then when 39 changes you have 15, and the result of the reading is the same for thinking it as 48 changing twice or 39 changing once.... but what's the difference between the divinations thinking it of 48 changing twice versus 39 changing once?

I never use transitional hexagrams, but there are many who like them a lot. Personally I don't see any purpose in it, you skip 48.5, which in my view gives important information. After all, that is what the Yi gave you.

Hex.15 seems to me that it has to come from both sides. Each doing her part, without demanding it from another. And since you can only decide about your own actions, you can only do half.

There is one thing though: half of it is your whole. It is all you can do. Repair your own jug, and there you can feel comforted: the fanyao says the limping is not your fault. Still it is your job to get it whole again, your own jug.
And 48.5 that the most important thing is, to have that inner spring clear. Fanyao: step by step, on and on.

I think that is all you can do. Make it all good from out you, over the rest you have very little power, if any.

LiSe

autumn said:

but what's the difference between the divinations thinking it of 48 changing twice versus 39 changing once?

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* definitions of terms are given below, for those who don't know the words

Hi Autumn-

The problem with 48 changing twice is that 15 is a non-sequitur* to both individual changes. The idea here is that the Line Texts were written as interpolations* between the meanings of two Gua*. Thats what gives them the core of their meaning. But 48.2 and 48.5 go off in two different directions, with meanings that can easily contradict each other. And neither alone leads us to 15. It's only when we melt the two together in our minds that we get the meaning of a simple change, and that hurts the best of heads.
So if we follow the Yijing's basic theory that Change evolves from the bottom to the top of the Gua in the same way that Gua are built, then we wind up proceeding only along the simple lines of interpolation by which the lines got their meanings, to the same destination, but with one or more additional stages of transition. This isn't any big challenge to someone who works with Tarot and can make a little story out of any sequencee of cards. You just connect the dots.

This is one of a number of ways to deal with multiple lines. One solution (the Yilin or Forest of Changes) went so far as to write a whole new Yi with 4096 texts, one for every possible combination of Changing Lines. It's always been a big problem in Yixue. For me this method is the most logical way to deal with it, but then I'm Vulcan.

I don't know who was the first to use Transitional Hexagrams. Mondo Secter, Bruce Hamerslough and myself all rediscovered and published the method independently in the same year (1976), so we couldn't have been the first.


non-sequitur - they don't follow in any logical way
interpolations - 1.5 is an interpolation between 1 and 2
* called Ben Gua or Root Hexagram and Zhi Gua or Resultant Hexagram

Very interesting. Thanks.

bradford said:

<snip of good stuff>

Rinda- do I remember correctly that you are a therapist yourself?
If so do you have the advice of a colleague?

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Yes, and have been following it, it is much the same as written here, though not many real studies have been done regarding blended families where the relationships in question are adult - most of what I see is ancedotal. One that was helpful in seeing this as not personal but fairly common in this type of situation is:
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]Making Adult Stepfamilies Work : Strategies For The Whole Family When A Parent Marries Later In Life[/FONT]

Seems like there's quite a bit of reading out there on the subject, as baby-boomers begin to encounter this problem in larger numbers.

Still hurts like h-e-doublehockeysticks! when it's in yer face, takes up a lot of personal energy managing my feelings about the situation, and I thought it might be interesting to explore with Yi.

One thing we've done is made wills. We've set them up that everything goes to the other when one of us passes on, and when the second one passes on the estate, if there is any left, will be divided equally between the four girls. It's a contract between my husband and I that can't be broken after one of us passes on, but could be changed earlier should we both agree to that. That way each one/each side of the family knows they will not be left out.

We may try the balancing thing suggested earlier in the thread, by giving an equal amount to my granddaughters whenever his girls get money - I think that will help me not feel so undermined by their money games. They won't be neutralized, but they will be balanced out.

Since Yi knows I make use of the transitional hexagrams (while not disregarding any of the changing lines) it makes sense to me that they were relevant here.

Rinda

That really is spot on what you saw there with 39.5, Brad. Do you use this approach regularly, or just when the original method doesn't give you a clear answer? I hope you'll continue to give us your insights using this technique.

rinda said:

Since Yi knows I make use of the transitional hexagrams (while not disregarding any of the changing lines) it makes sense to me that they were relevant here. Rinda

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Rinda- Thanks for pointing that out to the others - I forgot to.
It's still important to read the upper changing lines in the Ben, Root or Original Gua.

Rosada-
Yes, I use this method exclusively with multiple changing lines, with the above provision that you still read all of the original changing lines too, just in case.
That's also why I don't often chime in with interpretation advice in cases of mutiple lines - it might just confuse the dialog, especially among beginners. But I remembered Rinda as being experienced and tuff enuf for that.

Rinda-
Are you sharing any of this with your new husband?
Or is this just something his witchy wife does on her own?
I hope you get through all of this OK with some good mental health to spare.
Do keep us posted

Hi Brad,

“For 48.2,5 you simply change the bottom line first, leaving you with 39.5”

Which bottom line? The bottom change line, which is line 2? That goes to 39, and the fan yao of 39.2. How do you arrive at 39.5? I understand the concept of what the line means, but not how you arrive there.

feeling a little dense…

The idea is to look at the 5th line of 39 (the resulting hex when you change line 2 of 48) and not or not only at the 5th line of hex 48.

Another example: 13.2.4.6

The steps are:
(1) read 13.2
(2) change that line, you get hex 1
(3) read 1.4
(4) change that line, you get hex 9
(5) read line 9.6
(6) change that line, you get hex 5
(7) read hex 5

(in steps 1,3 and 5 you also read the hexes)

(8) take a beer