Background question on hex 28, lines 2 and 5

bruce_g · Jan 23, 2007

Re: 28 line 2 and 5

1. Why is it fortunate that an older man marries a young woman in line 2, but it seems vain for the older woman to marry a young man in line 5?

a) An older woman can’t bear children?
b) It isn’t socially acceptable?
c) Other?

2. What does this imply symbolically?

RindaR · Jan 23, 2007

Might it be more difficult for an older woman, perhaps with more experience and knowledge of the world accept a younger man as the "head of the family"?

Perhaps a younger man would not find an older woman as attractive? That seems to be the stereotype...

Please note, I'm not commenting here on the rightness or wrongness of the traditional male-dominant, female-submissive roles.

Perhaps symbolically line five might imply that young seed sown in older, perhaps depleted soil is not as likely to grow with vigor? Or that it might further deplete the receptive element?

Rinda

getojack · Jan 23, 2007

bruce_g said:
Why is it fortunate that an older man marries a young woman in line 2, but it seems vain for the older woman to marry a young man in line 5?

Because the man's ridgepole has been sagging since 28.3, so the woman goes for a younger stronger ridgepole in 28.5. So, "No praise. No blame."

Trojina · Jan 23, 2007

I think I go with option a, that she is too old to bear children. I only say this because I find this line tends to indicate situations where theres too little too late of something to make any impact on a situation. Something can't be renewed or restored, nothing new can be born out of the situation but it can continue awhile and be enjoyed. Especially if the ridgepole holds up :rofl:

bruce_g · Jan 23, 2007

Rinda, some young men prefer older, more experienced women. Interesting point about accepting a young man as head of household. Also, the seed of the young man bearing no fruit makes sense.

Jack, that makes practical sense for the man. I guess an older woman doesn’t deserve such good fortune?

Are there merely traditional values and stereotypes shown here, to illustrate virility and vanity?

bruce_g · Jan 23, 2007

trojan said:
I think I go with option a, that she is too old to bear children. I only say this because I find this line tends to indicate situations where theres too little too late of something to make any impact on a situation. Something can't be renewed or restored, nothing new can be born out of the situation but it can continue awhile and be enjoyed. Especially if the ridgepole holds up

Good points!

lindsay · Jan 23, 2007

As nitpicker extraordinaire, I'd like to question the vanity of the lady in 28.5. What the text actually says is "No blame, no praise." That's a pretty neutral judgment compared to 28.3 ("misfortune") and 28.4 ("humiliation"). It doesn't sound like disapproval for the marriage, but it isn't exactly a round of applause either. I agree the downside of the liaison is probably the difficulty in producing children, but the upside might be in having a bit of fun. If the Yi really thought such a marriage was ridiculous or disgraceful, it would have said so in ways similar to those used in 28.3 and 28.4.

I always look at 28.2 and 28.5 as comments on the position of the older man (very beneficial for him!) and older woman (so-so for her) rather than that of their younger consorts. I wonder how they feel about the matches? I suppose the texts are really talking about a certain kind of marriage situation, not the implications for either partner.

Lindsay

lindsay · Jan 23, 2007

Yes, in response to Trojan, 28.4 clearly says:

"If the ridgepole curves upward,
Good fortune.
If there is something else,
Humiliation."

I think that is something to keep in mind when considering 28.2 and 28.5.

bruce_g · Jan 23, 2007

Thanks, Lindsay, and all.

lightofreason · Jan 23, 2007

if we take the PAIR of 2 and 5, the focus is on issues of containment/control.

Given that background so the old man can contain/control the young woman (father figure etc) but the old woman may have issues in trying to control the wandering eye of the young man - the male being 'singleminded' and so only thinks of one thing all of the time! (implicit in this is the traditional female being dualminded - devoted to another/other as compared to devoted to self that comes with being singleminded.)

28 covers both literal excess as it does figurative in the form of going the extra distance for someone/something unconditionally (its pair 44 is more particular in this excess in its focus on persuasion/seducation)

The line positions cover the 7ness and 8ness of 28. Thus the 7ness of 28 is XOR 28 with 07 to give a change to line 2 and so establishing uniformity is expressed through 07 by analogy to 31 and so a focus on cooperative enticement (hex 31).

For the 08ness (passive attraction of the king/court as the source of control) we have the expression of 32 and so a focus on issues of commitment (well covered in the concerns of the old female with the young male!)

The 29ness of 28 covers control/containment issues overall of 28 and that is described by analogy to characteristics of 62 where containment/control is in the form of exaggerating (excess) of 'traditions' as attempts to keep things together, to, maintain overall loyalty to the 'cause' (this covers, in its weak form, a focus on routine to keep things together)

Chris.

bruce_g · Jan 24, 2007

lightofreason said:
if we take the PAIR of 2 and 5, the focus is on issues of containment/control.

Given that background so the old man can contain/control the young woman (father figure etc) but the old woman may have issues in trying to control the wandering eye of the young man - the male being 'singleminded' and so only thinks of one thing all of the time! (implicit in this is the traditional female being dualminded - devoted to another/other as compared to devoted to self that comes with being singleminded.)

28 covers both literal excess as it does figurative in the form of going the extra distance for someone/something unconditionally (its pair 44 is more particular in this excess in its focus on persuasion/seducation)

The line positions cover the 7ness and 8ness of 28. Thus the 7ness of 28 is XOR 28 with 07 to give a change to line 2 and so establishing uniformity is expressed through 07 by analogy to 31 and so a focus on cooperative enticement (hex 31).

For the 08ness (passive attraction of the king/court as the source of control) we have the expression of 32 and so a focus on issues of commitment (well covered in the concerns of the old female with the young male!)

The 29ness of 28 covers control/containment issues overall of 28 and that is described by analogy to characteristics of 62 where containment/control is in the form of exaggerating (excess) of 'traditions' as attempts to keep things together, to, maintain overall loyalty to the 'cause' (this covers, in its weak form, a focus on routine to keep things together)

Chris.

That's interesting, Chris. The practicality of your first and second paragraph, especially.

lindsay · Jan 24, 2007

To be serious for a moment, I sometimes interpret 28.2 and 28.5 as being about reviving some old passion or interest. Perhaps some old strong feeling. Trying to give something you thought was worn-out a new life. Sometimes this works for a short while, but it rarely endures. It's very hard to revive love or enthusiasm or curiosity. There are tricks to make stale things seem fresh, but they are in the end just tricks. 28.2 shows more promise than 28.5, but the underlying premise of both is unsound. One must learn to accept the end of youth and freshness. When a certain kind of 60 year-old man buys a bright red Ferrari and zips around town to show off, this is the kind of great excess we are talking about. Donald Trump. The Rolling Stones. Viagra. We are starting to live in a geriatric culture. Not only are the baby-boomers worn out, but so are their ideas. We'll be seeing a lot of 28.2 and 28.5 in the future.

Lindsay

jesed · Jan 24, 2007

Hi Bruce

Maybe you could find useful, in order to derivate symbolic meaning for today, change "old woman/young man" for "old yinn==>young yang" (-x- ) tranformation into (---)

In a context of excess of the Yang, moving from softleness (yinn) forward rigidity (yang) is not wise. In spanish we use to say: "echarle más leña al fuego" (to put more wood into the fire)

Best wishes

bruce_g · Jan 24, 2007

Lindsay, I think you’re right. The sacrifice of dignity for the gain of a solid ridgepole is also pretty vain, huh? I mean, that is what line 2 really comes down to, isn’t it? I love how LiSe expresses 28 in her commentary: “Do not live as an old man or an old woman, live as a grand old man, a grand old lady. Without regret or fear, but with the riches of wisdom and experience.”

Jesed, yes, that is along the line of what I was digging for. Both old yang become new yin. Along this same line, the fan yao of 28.2 is 31.2: Affecting ones calf – pitfall. To settle: auspicious. And the fan yao of 28.5 is 32.5: Steadying ones character: determination. So in both cases there is suggestion of steadying, settling and relaxing.

Gracias!

rosada · Jan 24, 2007

I think Trojan got it when she said this discribes something that can continue for a while and be enjoyed. I don't see any judgement here about the woman or a comparison to how it is for an older man. Consider that an older woman would marry a man simply because she wanted to. A younger woman is expected to marry and reproduce and an older man marrys to have a woman to take care of his house. But an older woman who marries does it simply because she wants to, and who could blame her if that's what she wants to do? On the other hand, she's only doing it for her own pleasure so there is no praise here either.
In a reading I would look at this as indicating an activity that one does for the simple pleasure of the doing it, without expecting long lasting results. Like plumping up the pillows before you flop into bed.

bruce_g · Jan 24, 2007

rosada said:
an older man marrys to have a woman to take care of his house.

Only if she wears a sexy maid's outfit.

bruce_g · Jan 24, 2007

Rosada, while I appreciate your thoughts, I have to tell you that I about chuckled myself to sleep last night, thinking about your ‘older man marries woman to take care of his house’ comment. As an older dude, taking care of my house would never even occur to me as a reason for marrying. Neither would bearing children be a consideration. But I do agree with you, in that Trojan’s comments did hit the mark in her often dead on and practical way. I found her comments useful because my question to Yi had nothing directly to do with marriage or relationships; hence my request for symbolic meaning.

Sparhawk · Jan 24, 2007

bruce_g said:
Only if she wears a sexy maid's outfit.

Here, Bruce, this one is very functional and you don't have to hear, pay or feed her...

L

heylise · Jan 24, 2007

28.2
When an older man marries a young woman, then the Chinese text says "profit", literally "harvest". Wenlin gives: profit, interest, advantage, benefit, sharp, favorable, do good (to), be beneficial (for). Children can be seen as the 'interest' of a marriage: bring two dollars to the bank and you get a dime interest. Nowadays children are rather seen as money eaters than money makers, but in old times that was different.

The fanyao, 31.2, warns for running too fast after things, but to settle. And that is a very good advice for any older man who wants to marry a young woman. For her just as well. It can save both a lot of trouble.

28.5
When an older woman marries a young man, then you get no interest. Which does not at all mean, that it is wrong. The text does not especially say though that the man is young. He is shi fu: fu is a (grown up) man, person engaged in manual labor, or it indicates simply a husband. Shi is scholar; intelligentsia, person, soldier, person trained in a certain field, (commendable) person. So he is respectable or intelligent or both.

Fanyao 32.5 is about a married woman, and "fu zi", young men. Or maybe man and son or child. Fu zi together, as one word, means: (trad.) disciple's address to his Confucian master, pedant, (trad.) my husband, master, title of respect for the elders. But fu on its own is the same character as in 28.5, the (grown up) man.
To determine about steadying one's character - auspicious for married women but not for young men or for man and youngster.

I think it is not good for someone who marries an older woman, to settle too much, to steady one's character too much. For the woman maybe (will have to think about that), but I do have some experience with older women, let's say inside information, that they enjoy a man with a lively spirit much more than a solid steady one. She has no kids anymore to look after, so she can finally have some fun and adventure. She wants to expand her horizon, and do all those things she could not do when she had to change diapers, get them to school and get them to finish it and into real life. No blame. No honor either, but I don't think she cares much about that. And the man neither, at least if he has that lively spirit she enjoys so much.

LiSe

bruce_g · Jan 24, 2007

Thank you, Lise, for your taditional and lively spirit insights. Makes a great deal of sense.

Luis, right on. Who could think of housework with one of these running around the house?

View attachment 156

But all this reminds me of what my Dad said to me after my brother and I were grown and moved out: Now that you kids are grown and gone I can chase your mother around the house. Only problem is, I forgot what to do once I catch her.

Trojina · Jan 24, 2007

Yes enlightening thoughts from LiSe, though I think I will opt for the more settled guy as I get older. An old woman needs time to stir her soup

Just looked at Denning on 28,5 and she seems to think its about not leaving things too late to put things right. Hmm I can see in some instances it might indicate not enough effort going in to make an impact, though theres no blame in that. Denning seems to imply some blame.

hilary · Jan 26, 2007

Lovely thread.

The commentary thinks that 28.5's marriage is disgraceful; the Zhouyi only thinks it means 'no blame, no praise.' This strange little comment comes up about just one other line, I think - 2.4. 'Tied up in the bag. No blame, no praise.' Do these two have anything in common, do you think? Could it mean something that's just not available for social evaluation - hidden from it, or beyond it?

bradford · Jan 27, 2007

I think there are other nuances to this, partly because I see a little tongue-in-cheek humor in "no blame, no praise". I'm not certain, though, that the authors of the Wing commentary thought it was funny. If they did they would be parodying the shock and horror with their comment.
I think the Zhouyi authors acknowledged that there was a double standard that they would be unable to correct, and also that the majority of their readers were men at the time.
To me the line text "no blame, no praise" simply means don't expect a lot of support or even attention from society. I don't see it as a recommendation to avoid playing with older women (which was one of my favorite pastimes as a young student or shi). Yeah, no kids out of this, except hers, who are older than you, and you have to get past the smell of all that makeup. So what? There's things and new tricks to be learned here!

bruce_g · Jan 27, 2007

bradford said:
I think there are other nuances to this, partly because I see a little tongue-in-cheek humor in "no blame, no praise". I'm not certain, though, that the authors of the Wing commentary thought it was funny. If they did they would be parodying the shock and horror with their comment.
I think the Zhouyi authors acknowledged that there was a double standard that they would be unable to correct, and also that the majority of their readers were men at the time.
To me the line text "no blame, no praise" simply means don't expect a lot of support or even attention from society. I don't see it as a recommendation to avoid playing with older women (which was one of my favorite pastimes as a young student or shi). Yeah, no kids out of this, except hers, who are older than you, and you have to get past the smell of all that makeup. So what? There's things and new tricks to be learned here!

That’s what I’m talkin’ about! The underlying, almost sick humor in it all. Thank you, Bradford, for smacking that nail square on.

Ok, in a story telling mood.

I was just 17, and on liberty in a more upscale part of Spain. This wasn’t the usual sailor stop over, like, say, Barcelona. This was native civilian territory, and ladies of the night were nowhere to be found. I was drunk, sad and very lonely, when a painted woman – must have been in her late 40s – walked through the empty pub door. It didn’t take long to negotiate and get down to business. I only had an hour or so before being AWOL; not that a horny young sailor needs more time than that. My ship had already ported in Cannes and Naples, and I understood the business like cold protocol of the game. But this older woman… this elegant mother and whore… she was altogether different than those young others. In fact, she utterly spoiled the rest of my skirt-chasing 6th Fleet cruise. Strangely, or perhaps not so strangely, I often wondered about her after that night. I wondered if the tenderness she showed me came from her heart or just her experience. Naive, some would say, but in some mysterious way, I knew I touched her too.

No blame, but a lot of praise from this young sailor.

Could this be what the Zhouyi authors were ashamed to admit? No, of course not. They were always proper. Right?

rosada · Jan 27, 2007

Aww, what a sweet story, Bruce, and so nicely told. What a bland world this would be without the withered poplars!

rosada · Jan 28, 2007

By the way, I recently read a translation that included in 28.6 the line, "Possessed by devils indeed." Anyone else seen this? If it is indeed part of 28.6 I think it would suggest the older woman helping the younger man overcome his demons.

hilary · Jan 28, 2007

The commentary on 28.5 (xiaoxiang) has a word, 醜, translated by Wilhelm/Baynes as 'a disgrace' and by Ritsema/Sabbadini as 'demoniac'. Brad has 'condemnation, derision, ugly (gossip)'.

Looking it up in Wenlin (with thanks to Brad's matrix for the character): 1) ugly, unsightly, hideous 2) disgraceful, shameful, scandalous. Karlgren: wine and devil/ghost/spirit, a drunken devil. And now hopefully someone with real knowledge about usage will chime in.

'Disgraceful' or 'scandalous' seems most likely, though it's an odd thing to say of a line with 'no blame, no praise'.

bruce_g · Jan 28, 2007

hilary said:
The commentary on 28.5 (xiaoxiang) has a word, 醜, translated by Wilhelm/Baynes as 'a disgrace' and by Ritsema/Sabbadini as 'demoniac'. Brad has 'condemnation, derision, ugly (gossip)'.

Looking it up in Wenlin (with thanks to Brad's matrix for the character): 1) ugly, unsightly, hideous 2) disgraceful, shameful, scandalous. Karlgren: wine and devil/ghost/spirit, a drunken devil. And now hopefully someone with real knowledge about usage will chime in.

'Disgraceful' or 'scandalous' seems most likely, though it's an odd thing to say of a line with 'no blame, no praise'.

Yes, that is the negative connotation I alluded to. I recall how, even back in the 1950's, a woman who was divorced was stigmatized as 'disgraceful' or 'scandalous', darkly frowned upon. To then take up with young man would surely have made her a whore. No blame to the young man, however. hmm...

bradford · Jan 29, 2007

rosada said:
By the way, I recently read a translation that included in 28.6 the line, "Possessed by devils indeed." Anyone else seen this? If it is indeed part of 28.6 I think it would suggest the older woman helping the younger man overcome his demons.

The word chou by itself may have connotations of a supernatural wrongness, but this rendering in the context of yi ke chou ye is not at all justified. It doesn't work grammatically. The writer had an idea that he had to put down here. That's all.
BTW, this is the Wu Wayfarer interpretation

bruce_g · Jan 29, 2007

"I think it would suggest the older woman helping the younger man overcome his demons."

That's an interesting thought. Though not possessed by literal devils, the older woman can help the lad to find himself - that's true.

What still bothers me about this contrast of lines 2 and 5, is the injustice. I get the feeling that the authors weren't being entirely honest with themselves, as though trying to slip one by, because they were unable to reconcile the contradiction.

Background question on hex 28, lines 2 and 5

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