Dear All,

If anyone can help with this I would be so glad!
I asked the Yi this question: "If I go to the country where the girl I love lives will my efforts and perseverence be sucessful (marriage, happiness)?"

The Yi gave the response of hexagram 32 with no changing lines. How should I understand this? I have read the forum posts on Hexagram 32 and if I understand correctly it has a core meaning of something being stable or enduring. I have read in WIllhelm that this hexagram can relate to marriage. From the forum I have also read that it can mean that the present state of affairs can perpetuate itself. This could mean something negative.

I will try to give some background detail. This relationship has been going on for two years. We get on together really happily. "Happy as sand babies" is the phrase that comes to mind! We do not have any personal difficulties of any kind. We dont argue, or fall out etc.

However the situation is that there is another person who she also loves. Both he and I live in different countries from each other, and from her. So it has been possible for her to avoid making a real choice, which would have been forced upon her if we all lived in one place.

When we are together, she is very happy, peaceful and it makes a great difference to our relationship. But the practical situation is that we are not together often, and when I am not there, the other person she loves visits, and this strengthens their connection. And so it revolves from him to me and back again.

It is clear that she cannot chose between her two suitors. And although it may seem unusual it is really true that she has deep sincere feelings for us both. Obviously we mean something different to her, both of which she values. Both of us are really devoted to her. She does not have any doubt about our commitment to her.

There is therefore a repetitious quality to this relationship, essentially that she cannot bring herself to make a real commitment to me for fear of losing him, or to him for fear of losing me. Its as silly a situation as you could wish for, but unfortunately it is being lived by all three of us.

I thought the main problem is that she doesnt have either of these two men in her life on a real daily basis. It is hard to choose between two people that you see infrequently. I thought, being there, being together is the only way of solving this. "I thought if I am asking for commitment I should show it. Actions not words".

But for me, this is a big step which involves relocation to another country, another job etc. So the thought of failure in this relationship is a little scary. I wouldnt be worried about it was an established relationship. I would jump with delight at the chance to be together.

I was also anxious because, this situation of course creates problems of honesty and trust. I should acknowledge that she avoids telling me when he will visit essentially being too frightened of the pain it will cause her and I. He doesnt know that she has a relationship with me, but of course has some intuition about it. But she also doesnt say to him or to me that either are her boyfriend (I dont want to paint her in a bad light).

So I asked the Yi and received this reply of hexagram 32. Can you advise me how I should know how to interpret it?

The judgement says:

Duration. Success. No blame.
Perseverance furthers.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go.

Perseverence futhers: This seems to indicate, that making an effort (perseverence = effort?) is helpful towards stability.

It furthers to have somewhere to go: Does this suggest going to her, brings the stable and enduring relationship?

Then the Image says:

Thunder and wind: the image of Duration.
Thus the superior man stands firm
And does not change his direction

Is the message dont go (dont change direction)?

Or is the message, "your going there is a direction which should not be changed"?

Is the image that of a man who despite thunder and wind (difficulties, buffeting, troubles! etc) remains stable, and because of this stability there comes success?

(Often when I ask about this relationship, and what will happen I receive the 32.3 or 32.1)

Then also I am puzzled about some points made in previous posts about Hex 32: One possible interpretation seems to be that 32 indicates stability in the sense of a situation "continuing as it has been". But when I think of this, it seems that if the Yi had meant this, it could have given me the answer in another form to show this, particularly because my question asked about success (marriage happiness). Could it be that by 32 the Yi means continuation of this unhappy situation?

The other idea perhaps means is that the instability will go and be replaced by a stable "succesful" relationship?

Maybe there are other meanings to 32? I would be really grateful for your insights and clarifications.

Thanks for reading all of this!

"I asked the Yi this question: "If I go to the country where the girl I love lives will my efforts and perseverence be sucessful (marriage, happiness)?"

The Yi gave the response of hexagram 32 with no changing lines."

It looks like success in the form you've imaged. Here's why I think so.

Hex 32 is about continuing perseveringly in the same direction you're moving. Okay, you're already moving in your heart toward the girl and wanting to be with her and be happy with her and marry her. The Yi seems to be saying: 'Continue in that direction.' Now, I'm not going to predict that you'll actually marry the girl, cuz I don't have that foreknowledge, and the Yi deals in general symbols, not particular cases or situations, but I feel quite certain that the Yi is endorsing the direction you're moving in, toward the girl. Good luck with it.

Hi satya,

"I asked the Yi this question: "If I go to the country where the girl I love lives will my efforts and perseverence be sucessful (marriage, happiness)?"
"The Yi gave the response of hexagram 32 with no changing lines."

Hex 32 is about a relationship enduring, to persevere in all the changes that occur from time to time within that relationship.
But, it also says don't confuse yourself, see the reality of the situation, don't take any radical action. It says the situation that you are now in is cyclic, ie. when this cycle/relationship ends another will begin. The end is reached by contraction, then a new beginning starts.

Hex 32 also indicates the end of July 2007, so that could also be a time to watch out for.

Anyway, I think that it is still early days to start asking about marriage, I suggest that you give the situation more time to mature, to see the truth of the situation. If you carry on like you have been doing, living in faraway places, "continuing as it has been", then the situation will remain the same until you change the status quo by moving towards a permanent arrangement. But on the face of it, a marriage/living together does not seem to be what your future holds here, in fact it suggests that you will go your seperate ways in the not too distant future. It maybe in 14 weeks or 14 months. You are the person who is in the weakest position here, I'm sure that your influence/power is very limited. Her boyfriend as you put it, is in a far stronger position than you are. Another thing is that you don't see this girl very often, so she will be extremely pleasant everytime that you visit because you are only there for a short while.


I must ask this, does she have even more relationships going on besides the two that you know about? I personally think that there is more going on here than you are aware of.
I have another question for you, are you sending/giving this girl money?
Does this girl live in South East Asia?

Hi again,

I was wondering if you tried to take a trip last month but something or other prevented you from going? You mentioned travelling in your post but I forgot to mention that I don't think that you will be travelling anywhere for quite some time, is that correct?

About Willow's thoughts

Thanks for the responses.

Its an unusual situation and I can see how its easy to grow suspicious when hearing of it. But I would like to avoid that.

I noticed that conversations backed up by any kind of mental suspicion (however valid) have not helped me to clarify the meaning of what the Yi is saying, but takes us ( you me etc), back into the world of uncertainties, opinions and parblindness out of which the Yi is there to help. Does that make sense?

Perhaps it is impossible to interpret the Yi correctly if there is a misapprehension about the facts. If so, I will try to clarify a little further!

About the weakness of my situation: In some ways my situation is weak. Any boy seeing a girl who also sees anothe boy is in a weak situation! But it is not as you envisage exactly. We see each other about every 3/4 weeks or so, for about a week at a time and sometimes stay together for as long as month. The other guy sees her every 3 months or so. The country is not south east asia. There is no money involved. I have never been asked for money. She comes from a good but also wealthy family, and certainly has no need of money. If there was someone else involved I would know, because she would tell me, as she tends to want to share whatever is going on inside her with me, regardless of whether I want to know it or not!

You say she is extremely pleasant to me because we dont see each other often. I would never have used the words extremely pleasant. Of course we are overjoyed to be together. But being together is something normal, natural - sometimes up sometimes down, but basically happy - like any couple.

But I dont think this happiness is because I am only there for a short time. She is equally demanding of my time and company when I am not there. When we are apart she calls me almost every day, and it is fairly normal for us to be in contact for several hours each day. We have never been able to resist making contact with each other for more than 6 days on one occasion over the whole two years we have known each other!

My question to the Yi did not envisage getting married immediately or even soon, of course. My question was was about whether putting myself in the same location and persevering (not getting deflected) would end in success (marriage happiness) or by implication, failure. I had marriage in my mind as a longer distance emblem of stability.

About my travel - I was there in October for two weeks. I did postpone that visit for few days, but it was this month not last. I didnt plan to travel there last month and postpone it.

I am planning to return next week...at least if I can resolve what the Yi is telling me! If I cant resolve it, if I felt really hopeless, probably I wouldnt go.

Im curious why this Hex should indicate an ending in July 2007. What in the Yi leads you to that conclusion?

You wrote:
It says (Yi) the situation that you are now in is cyclic, ie. when this cycle/relationship ends another will begin. The end is reached by contraction, then a new beginning starts

If this were so, how could this Hexagram be thought to pertain to marriage? If the hexagram symbolises marriage, this is generally thought of as a once in a life time relationship, not a relationship which ends to be replaced by another one. If one interprets H32 to mean duration in the sense of relationships ending and new ones starting it seems to stretch the meaning of "duration" so far as to make it synonymous with "change". Is that useful?

I wonder how this fits with Wilhelms comment?
Duration is rather the self-contained and therefore self-renewing movement .
Isnt Wilhelms point that the "duration" envisaged by the Yi, is a living, adaptive, responsive state (like life itself), yet for all its flexibility "in the background" or at a causal level, there is something which keeps it constant in direction?

Thanks Willow!

Hi Satya,

Have you asked her if she would like it if you moved to her country? Or if she would be willing to be in a relationship with you (and only you) if you lived there? Would she give up her other boyfriend? Is that what she wants?

Hello Lightangel! Thanks for this!
I have asked if she wants me there - and she does, and when I said I might not come she was sad.

She often says that she cannot decide, but is only waiting in a kind of helpless way for whatever will "happen"

I have sometimes asked her to give up her other guy, and sometimes she has tried it. The only thing I noticed is that if I am there, she starts to prefer having contact with me and to feel much stronger about me. Being there "I am real", influential etc. and to feel more strongly against the other. Obviously if I am there with her, it makes it so much more difficult for the relationship to exist between them.

Thank you Dobro

My first thought on seeing H32 was "Wow. Thank heaven!!" But I have learned to be wary of such responses, both negative and positive. For example sometimes I have had splitting apart and interpeted it as an ending, yet it didnt mean that at all. So my sense of H32 is that the meaning appears to be as you say it.

I wonder also, how much do people actually rely on, and take risks based the answers of the Yi? Would you act on the Yi's advice if it wasnt backed up by your own intuition?

My other question is really - how do people know what the Yi is saying. Even on this one topic we seem to have two diametrically opposed views about the meaning of H32. Does that mean there is no method for interpreting the answers the Yi gives?

Hi Satya,

Your answer makes me think there is hope in all this.
Maybe she is, like you say, waiting for a decision to come her way.

I really like what Lise says about Hex 32. Here's the link:
http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_17-32/hex_e_32.htm

If this is something you are willing to do and if it's possible at all to do it (only you know what difficulties you might have in getting a job in a new country, etc.), I think you should do it. Nobody can tell you for sure whether things will turn out the way you want. But the Yi seems to be saying that you will be fine.

Good Luck!

satya said:

My first thought on seeing H32 was "Wow. Thank heaven!!" But I have learned to be wary of such responses, both negative and positive. For example sometimes I have had splitting apart and interpeted it as an ending, yet it didnt mean that at all.

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Very wise assessment.

satya said:

I wonder also, how much do people actually rely on, and take risks based the answers of the Yi? Would you act on the Yi's advice if it wasnt backed up by your own intuition?

Click to expand...

Every important decision involves a risk, with or without the Yi. Yi can aid in giving us a picture of the situation, and that can help us to make better choices. But, a misinterpretation can complicate matters even further.

satya said:

My other question is really - how do people know what the Yi is saying. Even on this one topic we seem to have two diametrically opposed views about the meaning of H32. Does that mean there is no method for interpreting the answers the Yi gives?

Click to expand...

This is the single most debated subject on this board. Several interpretations may only make matters less clear than before. But it can also shed light on some angles of a reading you may have overlooked. I'd never abandon my own intuitive, gut level feeling about a reading I received, but I'd be open to see it from other points of view.

I'm less certain than some others here seem to be that the Yi always speaks directly to your exact question. That makes interpreting for another a slippery slope, unless there's more understanding about you and what the reading means to you.

For example, what if Yi's answer was speaking not to your direct question but to your mental/emotional condition as a result of this dilemma you're inquiring about? 32 can represent a state of mind, just as all 64 hexagrams can.

So, what might 32 have to say about you, rather than about your specific question? 32 is self contained, self renewing and self perpetuating. If you gain this momentum and equilibrium within yourself, does that change your view of the matter in question?

Unity

I'm less certain than some others here seem to be that the Yi always speaks directly to your exact question. That makes interpreting for another a slippery slope, unless there's more understanding about you and what the reading means to you.

I am sure, that the Yi deals with the causal state from which the question arises, not with words of the question. Words are a little like hair in this context, they are a dead outgrowth of something living. In this sense they are a handle or pointer. LIke the famous moon and pointing finger. The Yi would look at the moon, not the finger. This must be the case, for several reasons. The most obvious is that all the difficulities of legalistic interpretation would exist for the Yi in providing its answer if the Yi were to know only the words. The more direct answer though, is that there is a unity, in which there is no separate Yi, or you or I, or words, and because of this the whole question of which point in the emegence of meaning (sounds to thoughts to words) the Yi takes our questions, becomes redundant.

Thanks for this - it made me consider things from a new angle

satya said:

I'm less certain than some others here seem to be that the Yi always speaks directly to your exact question. That makes interpreting for another a slippery slope, unless there's more understanding about you and what the reading means to you.

I am sure, that the Yi deals with the causal state from which the question arises, not with words of the question. Words are a little like hair in the context, they are a dead outgrowth of something living. In this sense they are a handle or pointer. LIke the famous moon and pointing finger. The Yi would look at the moon, not the finger. This must be the case, for several reasons. The most obvious is that all the difficulities of legalistic interpretation would exist for the Yi in providing its answer if the Yi were to know only the words. The more direct answer though, is that there is a unity, in which there is no separate Yi, or you or I, or words, and because of this the whole question of which point in the emegence of meaning (sounds to thoughts to words) the Yi takes our questions, becomes redundant.

Thanks for this - it made me consider things from a new angle

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Likewise, thank you for this. Like how you state things, and I could not agree more.

lightangel: I hope so too

Your answer makes me think there is hope in all this.
Maybe she is, like you say, waiting for a decision to come her way.

I am hopefull, but before making my decision, I want to check if I made some great mistake in interpreting this Hexagram. The view, expressed by members here who have much greater knowledge of the Yi than I do, that it could mean something negative, really threw me. So it was this negative interepretation that I was really hoping to understand.

Thank you for the link to Lise's H32.

Hi satya,

"I asked the Yi this question: "If I go to the country where the girl I love lives will my efforts and perseverence be sucessful (marriage, happiness)?"

I had the idea that you were asking about the chances for marriage in the near future, and thats not the story here. Now, I realise that you actually meant something else, going to X country.

Okay, approaching the question from a different angle now, about moving,

The text says to "set out and do something", going to X country and looking for employment.
"When something ends, there is always a new beginning" , suggests that you end your employment, leave your home to set up a new life in X country. Contraction, to reduce your links to your home country, then proceed to start a new life elsewhere.
"A person stands firm and does not change his course", suggests that you must make up your mind on what you want to do, then make the commitment and proceed accordingly. Once you have decided, do not change your mind.

So, hex 32 is saying that relocating to X country will be successful.

Then you must use perseverance in your relationship when you are actually there in the flesh.

Okay, I misunderstood about your visits, I thought that you meant that you seldom saw her. Also, now that I know more of the background to this story, the questions that I asked are redundant.

It is basically down to your girl then for her to make up her mind, to make a firm commitment, on how she wishes to proceed with this strange relationship arrangement.
It still looks negative to me at the moment but it is up to you to relocate, and see how that changes the balance, will it go in your favour, his favour or nobodys?

"If this were so, how could this Hexagram be thought to pertain to marriage? If the hexagram symbolises marriage, this is generally thought of as a once in a life time relationship, not a relationship which ends to be replaced by another one."

It depends entirely on what the question is, now I realise that you are asking about moving in order to achieve a goal, but you are not married yet, so there is no enduring marriage relationship, it is still in the courtship phase which is a lot more problematic and unsure as to the eventual outcome. And even more so here.

July 2007

Thanks Willo - Im curious about your idea that something significant would happen in July 2007

Im also curious why you asked about my postponing a visit. It was incorrect that I cancelled a visit, last month, but I did postpone my visit this month due to other demands on my time. So it was curious that you raised these points. What led you to ask about those things and about my not travelling for sometime in the future?

satya said:

"If I go to the country where the girl I love lives will my efforts and perseverence be sucessful (marriage, happiness)?"

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being a little tongue-in-cheek here...

Marriage and happiness may be two separate questions.

Looking only at the direct question and answer, I'd tend to agree with what Angel said earlier, that the prospect does look good. How long it takes to get there, how much stuff you'd have to go through to make it happen, that would require lots of endurance, I'd think.

Marriage & Happiness

being a little tongue-in-cheek here...

Marriage and happiness may be two separate questions.

When I asked the question of the Yi I kept both in mind, because a marriage might not be happy! The form of the union is not as important as its completeness

Looking only at the direct question and answer, I'd tend to agree with what Angel said earlier, that the prospect does look good. How long it takes to get there, how much stuff you'd have to go through to make it happen, that would require lots of endurance, I'd think.

This seems to make sense to me, because one of the most frequent hexagrams I receive from the Yi is that of gradual development. The other that often comes up is H32.1 - which I have generally understood as counselling patience. And also H32.3 which I have understood to be a kind of admonishment for my own lack of patience.

Another curiousity about this is that the response of the Yi changes over time when I ask about the state of the relationship between her and the other guy.

I have a few questions about this. When I ask for example "How is her relationship with him at this time?" do the judgement and the lines indicate advice to me, or to her? How would one know?

Secondly, I notice that the Yi doesnt appear to see fixed outcomes, but that things are in a constant state of development. So when I have asked the Yi in the past about the possibility of success or marriage (whatever!) in this relationship, it has sometimes given different answers. My point here is that the Yi does not seem to have the idea of a predestined future. (?)

If this is correct, then it would perhaps be a mistake to think that the Yi's advice is somehow a rubber stamp on what will happen. Perhaps all that the Yi is saying when responding with H32 is, at this time there can be success(but maybe later as things develop the relationship can turn in another direction???

Satya,

Any time I’ve tried to nail down a formula, i.e. the Judgment pertains to this or that one, and the Image to this one, etc, it throws a curve that brings me back to formula one. I just don’t believe there are these sorts of conclusive and repeatable formulas. I personally think it’s only the over-organized mind that constructs these regiments for sake of psychological comfort.

“Secondly, I notice that the Yi doesn’t appear to see fixed outcomes, but that things are in a constant state of development. So when I have asked the Yi in the past about the possibility of success or marriage (whatever!) in this relationship, it has sometimes given different answers. My point here is that the Yi does not seem to have the idea of a predestined future. (?)”

Yeppers, that’s how I see it too. While we seek final resolution, Yi’s pages just keep on turning. Resolution reaches completion, but the wheel is still in spin. Predestination depends on what point destiny is being viewed from. This is a very old problem. It is the function of time to separate present and future. Yi seems to lack this limitation, but yet it understands it and teaches it nevertheless. Crazy. I can only be certain of one thing: I am here, now. I believe I play a co-creative role in the shaping of my destiny. Some of it is fixed and some is fluid. Some of it seems to have been entirely unavoidable, and some I seem to be able to influence through my thinking and actions.

It’s interesting to think of your situation with this woman as having a predetermined destiny, and that any decision you make is still part of what had to happen. It just depends how high up on hexagram 20’s tower we’re standing at the moment. From line 6 there is no destiny problem, and it makes no difference. What will be will be. Enjoy the moment, and in doing that we secure our fate, whatever it turns out to be. I think that's 'standing firm and not changing our direction'.

This ever present moment, without dimensions, is the enduring. This is so true how in not taking a separate stance from that (ie not thinking here is I, and this moment"), is standing firm.

Satya

"I wonder also, how much do people actually rely on, and take risks based the answers of the Yi? Would you act on the Yi's advice if it wasnt backed up by your own intuition?"

Well, I got into the Yi because I wanted more guidance than I was getting from my own conscious mind - I can think my way through a situation, but thinking your way through is never enough. And my emotions are a reliable guide yet. So I took to the Yi. So my answer to your question about taking risks with the Yi is - yes. I mean, why consult if you're not going to do what it says at least some of the time? Do you consult just to exercise your uncertainty? Or to get a cosmic pat on the head for what you were going to do all along anyway?

See, it all comes down to two things with following the Yi's advice or not:

* Do you trust the intelligence that the Yi's coming from?

* How much of a difference do you think it would really make if you chose alternative A over alternative B? Once you see that marrying this person or not marrying this person wouldn't really make *that* much of an important difference in your life (because on the one hand you'd find somebody else to marry, and on the other hand you can learn all the most important lessons you need to learn in this life pretty much no matter *what* alternatives you choose) it's not such a big deal. If you really see it, I mean.

Having said all that, it's also true I think that you shouldn't let the Yi make your decisions for you. You have to put the work into the decision-making process and engage your feelings and do some real thinking. Then consult. Then make your decision.

hex 32

I think this hexagram usually means to continue with your current life without changing direction - usually it means don't change your current course or direction therefore I think that your should continue with your life as usual and not make the change you are considering

this thread is over 3 years old so hopefully satya made the decision already