Can we logically derive which of the eight images sky, earth, thunder, wind, fire, water, mountain, and marsh belongs to which of the eight trigrams on the basis of the positions of the yin and yang lines in the trigrams only? And if not, is the traditional connection between the trigrams and images purely conventional?

M. A. Kazlev explains it very nicely why each trigram is thus formed (see here - 8 Trigrams).
Is this what you had in mind?

Thank you. I could use that explanation as a way to memorise the connection between the images and the trigrams. But it looks like there could be other ways to connect the images with the trigrams that could just as well be explained somewhat along those lines.

So I am looking for an explanation that kind of proves the traditional connection between the images and the trigrams to be the most appropriate.

But maybe other connections could do just as well, as somebody told me today...

Hi, maybe in this video You'll see it? (In the bottom of the frame there is a little box You should activate for english translation):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFcTqJXBpA4

Great video! It explains very well why the images were chosen in the first place. But still I do not see why the trigrams should be connected to the images the way it is traditionally done. For instance: the earth could just as well be considered solid and durable while the sky is penetrable and ever changing. The traditional trigram for heaven/sky would in that case be connected to the image earth and the traditional trigram for earth would than be connected to the image heaven/sky.

(By the way: is there a possibility to directly post the symbols of the trigrams and hexagrams?)

Great video! It explains very well why the images were chosen in the first place. But still I do not see why the trigrams should be connected to the images the way it is traditionally done. For instance: the earth could just as well be considered solid and durable while the sky is penetrable and ever changing.

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No because the earth births things and heaven 'inspires' them. Think of them as genitalia, sorry but it's necessary. A firm straight line a yang line/heaven/male/penis, yin, broken line,open space/receptivity/earth/vagina/birthing. It's that fundamental isn't it ? Penis/Vagina. The sky does not carry and bear the weight of the ten thousand things, the earth carries and nurtures them. Also the earth is considered solid and durable, and receptive, heaven inspirational, life force, pure energy.

To manifest anything pure energy in yang must meet the receptive in yin to produce. To birth anything yin needs the quickening life force of yang. I mean just think of the sex act and go from there.

From there, the yang trigram qian being father and the yin trigram kun being mother the other trigrams can be seen as the rest of the family. For example dui, youngest daughter. Why that arrangement of lines is youngest daughter I can't recall, it's to do with the progession of the yin/yang lines. I'm no trigram scholar but surely it's quite apparent why qian is heaven/male and kun is earth/female. As I said you need go no further than the appearance and form of male/female genitalia to see the connection.

Earth/receptive/vagina/womb
Heaven/fertilising/inspiring/penis


Obviously this has been put far more fulsomely and elegantly elsewhere....but it's that fundamental .....hence the graphic descriptions.

Leerling said:

But still I do not see why the trigrams should be connected to the images the way it is traditionally done.

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Leerling, I think one think Trojina and others are pointing to is that besides their names, the trigrams have specific meanings, associations, and ways of being that are uniquely theirs -- and they may sometimes be different than our usual associations with their names.

For myself, I had to suspend my own understand and associations a bit, and realize that the trigrams might not necessarily or exactly match my definitions and associations with Earth, Heaven, Water, and so on.

For example, when I see the trigram which has a solid line between two broken lines, in my mind's eye I see a stream or river flowing between two rocky shores -- the trigram Kan, or water. Whether or not that image was seen the same way as the early originators/thinkers of the Yi or of the trigrams is not all that important to me.

Many of my associations with the word 'water' are positive: life-giving, calming, flowing .... But in contrast, many of the meanings of Kan are not usually seen as positive (or even associated with water): pitfall, abyss, chasm, risk, exposure, danger, etc. What is more important to me are the meanings and definitions which are associated with that trigram, and not necessarily its name.

Study of the trigrams is itself vast. Some people find knowing about the trigrams important in understand the I Ching; some people don’t focus on them as much. If you want to delve more into the trigrams, some sources I’ve found useful are:

• Look at the Shuo Kua, or Eight Wind of the I Ching, which is a discussion of the Trigrams. It contains material of great antiquity in explaining the eight primary trigrams. There is a translation of the Shuo Kua in Wilhem’s version, and I’ve found at least two online versions here and here. (Please note that I have found some differences in interpretation between some of the online versions (not necessarily these two) - for example, one talked about two trigrams interacting between each other, while the other website said they were in "conflict.")
  
• Lise Heyboer’s web site includes a section devoted to the trigrams.
  
• Brad Hatcher’s Yi Ching has a detailed section about the meanings of the trigrams (in Vol. I), and the Glossary (in Vol. II) contains definitions of the trigram terms/words: Qián, Kun, Li, and so on. You can purchase a hard copy from him, or download a PDF version, both from his website.
  
• If you are a Change Circle member (another part of Online Clarity), there are a number of discussions about trigram interpretation/divination in the Yi Academy section.

Best, David

Leerling, for some reason I can't edit my post above, but just want to add (and maybe add to your confusion ) - I looked at one of the websites about the Shuo Kua, or Eight Wing of the I Ching about what it says about Kan/Water, and it varies quite a bit (and might seem to be contradictory):




Best, David

Thanks for all the answers. I will think about it.

Hilary offers an "I Ching Foundations" course right here at onlineclarity (Click on SHOP at the top of this page). It includes a terrific discussion of the trigrams including much more information than the youtube videos plus it's in audio in English - no having to read subtitles.

Hi.
There are many systems of the five arts that work with Images.
Stems and branches have their own image, every Hexagram have too, there are even systems that add extra Images to the mix like Na Yin for example, that apparently was used alone for divination in past times as well.

So when it comes to the trig rams, some of the Images related to the Trigrams, aren't easy to understand without going more deeply into the elements.

For example Zhen has images of Head, Leader, Electrical Lines etc. while we can see Qian with Images of giant machine, vehicle, or even vacation resort.
The logic behind it... We can say that that are the Images that come with the Stems of the same element, that Jia is leader because Wood is growing and that movement can be seen in leading as well, or many other things, but at the end of the day the Images that are used in the Five Arts, are usually just made with centuries(in this specific case even millenniums) of practice. And while with modern times Images are updated, the principle behind their derivation is not entirely logical in the western way of thinking.

In another topic bradford wrote (about a book on the meaning of the I Ching):

From perusing what was available in the "Look Inside" feature, it looks to me like the author really doesn't know what science is. Neither does he know that Yin-Yang theory didn't come along until at least five centuries after the Yijing was first created and should therefore be treated as an afterthought rather than fundamental or foundational. But obviously he isn't alone in not knowing that.

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If that is so the whole idea of wanting to derive the images corresponding tot the trigrams from the Yin- and Yang-lines in the trigrams might well be misguided. The reasons given (for the correspondence) would than be a kind of post hoc rationalisation, and would only work for people already committed to the traditional correspondence. Could that be in fact how it works?