17,4

peter2610 · Oct 5, 2015

The success of this new project in Manchester is not looking very likely: 17,3,4>63

I submitted a post on 17,4 some months ago but it reappeared again recently in a reading that, I suspect, makes its meaning even clearer. The Wilhelm line-text for 17,4 reads:-

Following creates success.
Perseverance brings misfortune.
To go one’s way with sincerity brings clarity.
How could there be blame in this?

The first line of the line-text confirms that the direction one has been following has been correct and would lead to success.The perseverance mentioned in the second line is often seen as perseverance in the direction described in the first line, but this doesn't correlate with my own personal experience. The second line is not referring to perseverance in the direction one has been following but rather to perseverance in the doubts and uncertainties that have begun to appear. If these are maintained they will lead to the collapse of one’s position. The third line affirms that if you can return to your original direction with faith and sincerity your doubts will disappear and your path will become clearer and clearer.

In over twenty-five years of using the I Ching I have never once found 17,4 to apply to a situation of misfortune following the acquisition of followers.

A suggested clarifying addition to the line-text would read as follows:-

Following your true path creates success.
Perseverance in doubting or disbelieving brings misfortune.
To go your way with faith and sincerity brings clarity.
How could there be blame in this?

bradford · Oct 6, 2015

I think that addition destroys the meaning.
And it certainly isn't in the Chinese.

peter2610 · Oct 9, 2015

The problem is that the most commonly accepted interpretation of the line - that one at 4th yang obtains followers who bring about one's downfall - isn't in the Chinese either, it's an interpretation just as my suggestion is an interpretation. As I mentioned in my post I have never once received 17,4 in a situation whereby I have obtained followers who eventually proved to be a liability. I HAVE received 17,4 many times where my questioning doubts have proved to be groundless - but I don't regard that as a final definitive proof. I think that this is one of those difficult situations where each person has to search for his/her best interpretation. Peter

bradford · Oct 9, 2015

Or you could use a proper interpretation of the original Chinese text to begin with.

charly · Oct 9, 2015

bradford said:
Or you could use a proper interpretation of the original Chinese text to begin with.

Hi, Brad:

To get a proper interpretation one must begin with a literal translation, I believe.

Why not to begin with it?

All the best,

Charly

bradford · Oct 9, 2015

charly said:
Hi, Brad:
To get a proper interpretation one must begin with a literal translation, I believe.
Why not to begin with it?
Charly

That's what I did. But I'm sure yours will have naked girls in it somewhere.

sooo · Oct 9, 2015

CHAR-LY CHAR-LY CHAR-LY!! (I've been watching too much Gerry Springer.)

sooo · Oct 9, 2015

Fwiw, it has always seemed fitting when receiving this line to simply go my own way; the active word is "go". Not as in permanently but as in following my own path, which leads away from group-think and entanglement (i.e. perseverance). How can there be blame in that?

bradford · Oct 9, 2015

sooo said:
Fwiw, it has always seemed fitting when receiving this line to simply go my own way; the active word is "go". Not as in permanently but as in following my own path, which leads away from group-think and entanglement (i.e. perseverance). How can there be blame in that?

That's how I read it too. Following contrasts rule-bound following with ad hoc following or tracking. Can't keep following old successes, or others' successes.
Also there's this about what to follow:

Another, more distantly related metaphor:
A swami kept a cat in his ashram. There were very few occasions when the cat and the swami were not seen together. The only time there was ever any problem was at Evening Puja, when the cat sometimes upset the oil lamps. After a few incidents, the swami decided the cat could not be present during the Puja any more and took to putting it out just before the ritual began. This solved the problem comfortably and Puja went on for years without interruption. Eventually the swami passed away. All the faithful devotees continued doing Puja and continued to put the cat out before it began. One day the cat died. There was no question in the minds of the devotees: they immediately went out to the market and found another cat for the ashram. It would not be possible to do Puja properly without the ritual of putting the cat outside.

charly · Oct 10, 2015

sooo said:
Fwiw, it has always seemed fitting when receiving this line to simply go my own way; the active word is "go". Not as in permanently but as in following my own path, which leads away from group-think and entanglement (i.e. perseverance). How can there be blame in that?

Hi, Bruce:

I agree with it.

See a temporary translation
(with some alternatives added at the foot following Brad´s suggestion):

隨有獲
sui2 you3 huo4
FOLLOWING TO_HAVE CAUGHT
Looking for getting captives ... (1)

貞凶
zhen1 xiong1
OMEN UNFORTUNATE
It should be horrible!

有孚在道以明
you3 fu2 zai4 dao4 yi3 ming2
HAVING TRUST IN METHOD IN_ORDER_TO UNDERSTAND
If we have a reliable method to understand ...
Or: going your way, behaving at your manner, following your understanding...

何咎
he2 jiu4
HOW WRONG?
How should it be wrong?

All the best,

Charly

___________________________
(1) Dirty alternative, another almost literal translation for this sequence:

Only looking for having sex... it should be unlucky!

The engish verb TO CATCH in spanish is COGER, which means TO FETCH and also TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. In chinese a character meaning TO FETCH (取 qu3) also can mean TO MARRY.

(2) Another sequence that allows more almost literal translation:

HAVING CAUGHT ON (the) ROAD WITH CLARITY,
Say, sex outdoors at the stars light
Or, maybe, sex outdoors FOLLOWING the teachings learnt in Hilary´s forum (CLARITY)

... how should it be wrong?

獲 huo4 means to capture, to catch.
孚 fu2 means reliable, confidence, sincerity but earlier it meant to capture, to catch be prisoners, be booty.
道 dao4 means road, way, path and also method.
明 means clarity and also understading.
取 qu3 means to fetch, to catch, to take and also to marry.

Ch.

sooo · Oct 10, 2015

peter2610 said:
The problem is that the most commonly accepted interpretation of the line - that one at 4th yang obtains followers who bring about one's downfall - isn't in the Chinese either, it's an interpretation just as my suggestion is an interpretation. As I mentioned in my post I have never once received 17,4 in a situation whereby I have obtained followers who eventually proved to be a liability. I HAVE received 17,4 many times where my questioning doubts have proved to be groundless - but I don't regard that as a final definitive proof. I think that this is one of those difficult situations where each person has to search for his/her best interpretation. Peter

I had to tangle a bit with Charly's temporary translation. The key was in concluding that to follow my way didn't have to do violation to established method or tradition, such as going out to buy a replacement cat in keeping with established forms or establishment.

I'm not seeing such a wide chasm in interpretation, only a bit in expression, which seems in keeping with the spirit of line 4. However, I've never in any way associated obtaining a following and a resulting downfall with this line. Rather the downfall would result from either following the established path or expecting any to follow my path. Just go quietly along my way.

peter2610 · Oct 10, 2015

Fwiw, it has always seemed fitting when receiving this line to simply go my own way; the active word is "go". Not as in permanently but as in following my own path, which leads away from group-think and entanglement (i.e. perseverance). How can there be blame in that?

- Sooo

Yes, "Following" is the following of one's true path, however hard this might become, it is the following of one's spiritual destiny, not the following of convention. The latter part of 17,4 (To go one’s way with sincerity brings clarity. How could there be blame in this?) reinforces this approach, the need for "clarity" implies that there has been doubt and confusion and the earlier "Perseverance brings misfortune" is simply a warning that maintaining doubt and confusion will erode one's conviction and lead to misfortune. The way to avoid this is by increased sincerity in following one's path, not by abandoning one's path.

anemos · Oct 10, 2015

Perhaps the confusion sprung from the blurred boundaries between self and group. Losing the sense of self , perhaps its the misfortune of line 4. Deindividuation is one of the hazards of following a group.

peter2610 · Oct 11, 2015

Good point anemos, deindividuation/non-self is an important aspect in many religious paths and has been the intended effect of many world leaders throughout history. Perhaps a moderate example can be seen in army discipline where recruits are led through a strict regime that emphasises the importance of obedience over self-will. A more extreme, and dangerous, example can be seen in Hitler's phenomenal rise to power in the 1930's in which an entire nation gave its loyalty and support to such an extent that the movement more closely resembled a "cult" rather than a political party. Such can be the radical and powerful outcomes of deindividuation that I think we should be extremely careful in how we adopt it.

anemos · Oct 15, 2015

I need to find a farewell gift for a close friend that leaves a team I belong too. Going to paint something and was thinking of a specific idea but was unsure. So kind of erased a dozen ideas from my mind concentrate of that person and the occasion and asked Yi "M's present " 17.4

Sometimes , we have to say goodbyes, sometimes we have people let go. She follows the path of her heart, and now I'm sure about my gift to her.

sooo · Oct 16, 2015

anemos said:
I need to find a farewell gift for a close friend that leaves a team I belong too. Going to paint something and was thinking of a specific idea but was unsure. So kind of erased a dozen ideas from my mind concentrate of that person and the occasion and asked Yi "M's present " 17.4

Sometimes , we have to say goodbyes, sometimes we have people let go. She follows the path of her heart, and now I'm sure about my gift to her.

anemos · Oct 16, 2015

Nice !

Soon will be my time to get farewell gifts and I hope will get something like that.

canislulu · Aug 24, 2017

I am grateful for this thread as it helps my understanding of 17.4. I have been struggling to understand the "Perseverance brings misfortune" bit. Peter's rendering "Perseverance in doubting or disbelieving brings misfortune" resonates. On reading the story Bradford shares in post #9 "putting the cat outside" for me becomes "putting the doubts outside" or "putting group think" outside" and following the "compass of one's heart" (Bruce's (?)post #16) on the journey, making course corrections as needed.

Could 17.4 be the "journey and not the destination" line. Perhaps "Preverance brings misfortune" can refer to not being attached to the outcome. The path unfolds moment by moment.

moss elk · Aug 24, 2017

How about perseverence (in following this particular thing or person) brings misfortune?

MirrorTouch · Feb 2, 2018

Or colloquially: "Booty Call"

I appear to be lurking in geriatric threads, but I sorta suck at sussing through forums. I've gotten this line predicting a booty call from a person I thought wasn't interested. Someone who had actually been really rude to me while with his friends, only to call me an hour later to ask me over.I went, thinking it was for a chat (I'd done some photos for him). When I asked why he was being a douche, he said he didn't want his friends to know he liked me. I didn't get his "lead" until his tongue was in my mouth.Now I'm predictably slow on the uptake, so I asked the Yi when I got home. I think my question was,"WTF??!!" The answer:17.4(1) Dirty alternative, another almost literal translation for this sequence:

Only looking for having sex... it should be unlucky!

The engish verb TO CATCH in spanish is COGER, which means TO FETCH and also TO HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE. In chinese a character meaning TO FETCH (取 qu3) also can mean TO MARRY. (2) Another sequence that allows more almost literal translation:

HAVING CAUGHT ON (the) ROAD WITH CLARITY,Say, sex outdoors at the stars lightOr, maybe, sex outdoors FOLLOWING the teachings learnt in Hilary´s forum (CLARITY)... how should it be wrong?

獲 huo4 means to capture, to catch.孚 fu2 means reliable, confidence, sincerity but earlier it meant to capture, to catch be prisoners, be booty.道 dao4 means road, way, path and also method. 明 means clarity and also understading.取 qu3 means to fetch, to catch, to take and also to marry. Ch.[/QUOTE]

moss elk · Feb 2, 2018

I got this line one night when I was working security at a facility.

There was a large water leak and two maintenance men were running around trying to find it. I was weighing whether to help them or not. (since it wasn't really my duty.) I had some time to think about it, so threw a cast.

After the cast, I went and helped them.
I found one leak, and they found another leaking directly over a pallet of Rock Salt piled 5 feet high.

They ran to shut off a water main, and I moved the rock salt by hand. (there was no forklift at the location) Afterward, I went back to my regular duties for the night.

So I followed them for a time,
then went back to my own path after some mutual success on their path.

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