I sometimes here people refer to Gua 1, Heaven as being Yang; and Gua 2, Earth as Yin. The implication is - I think - that Heaven is more active than Earth;

A few observations about this:

First, I've never been all that keen on using Yin and Yang to describe Heaven and Earth. In part because the Yi predates the concept of yin and yang by at least a few centuries, and also because it seems to create some divisions that I don't think really exist.

One of these division is in the realm of activity, doing stuff, of making things happen. I get the sense that some people think that Heaven is the active principle here, and it does stuff; whereas, Earth just sits back and 'accepts.'

However, the Yi shows that both of these hexagrams are 'active' but in different ways. For example:

From Earth: to "uphold the outer world;" and ... "the noble young one has somewhere to go ... (to) secure the certain good fortune." The lines too in places describe restraint or to endure persistence, but there is action and activity here, even if it also includes acceptance, tolerance, and to not always be the one whom leads.

And from Heaven: to be "naturally energetic ..." and to be creative throughout the day (at night ... a different matter!); and to "dance across the deep with no regrets."

In looking at the associations of the trigrams, Heaven is often described as the energy or force which drives all things, but Earth is necessary to manifest this energy into the 'myriad things.' Using these assocations, it's almost as if Earth is actually the more active force, that makes things real, that brings them 'down to earth.'

Best, David

Good point! The yin and yang roles are all relative, so while Earth maybe yin in relation to Heaven, it is yang in many other situations. In real life Earth provides nutrients and cover for plants, and plants provide fruits and flowers for us to enjoy. Earth receives and then gives back.

The yin-yang relationships of the trigrams are interesting but I'm not finding them all that helpful when it comes to interpreting casts. Now when I do a reading, I focus more on each trigram's individual essence and less on whether it's considered 'yin' or 'yang'.

Freedda said:

... First, I've never been all that keen on using Yin and Yang to describe Heaven and Earth. In part because the Yi predates the concept of yin and yang by at least a few centuries, and also because it seems to create some divisions that I don't think really exist.
...
And from Heaven: to be "naturally energetic ..." and to be creative throughout the day (at night ... a different matter!); and to "dance across the deep with no regrets." ...

Click to expand...

Hi, David:

I totally agree with you. Of course, the Changes predates the Yin/Yang theory although maybe there was an incipient conceptual opposition corresponding to light an shadow, sun and moon, dry and wet, hot and warm... (1)

Two different principles not always opposed but often collaborative, not always fighting even if mingling bloods. (2)

On 1.3 I have an alternative almost literal traduction:


Of course the alternatives are uncountable for reduplications use to be taken as sound words, onomatopoeias, often with little relation with the stand-alone one-syllabe word and often pointing to another words with similar, not identical, sound.

Say qian-qian can be borrowed for another reduplication with the same phonetics, no matters the tone, or with similar sound like jian-jian, xian-xian, gan-gan, han-han, and so on.

Meanwhile the first sequence meaning is uncertain or multiple, the end is clear, allowing less exuberant translations. At the end the JunZi is cautious, prudent, respectful, almost timid, nothing excessive.

Do you think so?


All the best,


Charly

___________________________
(1) Even maybe, viceversa.
(2) The primal metaphor in the Changes is, I believe, of sexual nature, the sexual reproductive mode.
Ch.

very thought provoking thread.

i agree with some things that were already said - it's not crucial for an interpretation to know if the hexagram is more yin or more yang, when we do understand the essence of each trigram already. also it's not important at all, unless we start comparing them…

and yup, when it comes to yin and yang, their roles are always relative, as well as dynamic... but not sure if we can ever find out if I Ching predates the concept of yin & yang or if this concept is simply inherent within the changes? it's a bit of a chicken and an egg quest i imagine.

as to the meaning of the two, in Chinese philosophies earth could be considered the mother and her activity is to create, while heaven is the father and his activity is to control... but then control seems more like a passive activity compared to creating or actually going into labour, right?

and then the names of the hexagrams (or trigrams even) lead to even more confusion - heaven being the creative and earth the receptive now…

i think the basic theory of yin and yang is better illustrated by taijitu than the binary system or trigrams and hexagrams... although it also has its interpretational limits, at least it serves as a reminder that there's no absolute opposition, but:

1) the opposition of yin and yang means the ability to struggle with and thus control each other; the yin or yang aspect within any phenomenon will restrict the other through opposition;
2) the interdependence of yin and yang mean that neither can exist in isolation: without the yin there can be no yang, without yang no yin; they’re both the condition for the others’ existence;
3) there’s the inter-consuming-supporting relationship of yin and yang - the two aspects of yin and yang within any phenomenon are not fixed, but in a state of mutual consumption and support - consumption of yin leading to gaining of yang, and vice versa;
4) while the inter-transforming relationship of yin and yang means, that if the previous relationship is the process of quantitive change, then the inter-transformation is the process of qualitative change (extreme yin will necessarily produce yang and extreme yang will necessarily produce yin; in TCM terms - severe cold will give birth do heat, severe heat will give birth to cold)
5) last but not least - the infinite divisibility of yin and yang - think fractal...

this could possibly explain the partially confusing names - heaven at the maximum of its yang becomes almost yin, becomes the creative, while earth, at the peak of its yin is also the most receptive (sensitive, susceptible)… this weirdly makes me think of young parents-to-be

and i don't think all this in any way implies that heaven is more active than earth. i also don't think the yin-yang theory implies any divisions, on the contrary, it teaches about the illusion of dualism and how everything's actually connected...

so even though there's probably no need to use either yin or yang to describe the first two hexagrams, i'd find it weird to run away from the fact that they're fully built out of either 0's or 1's (which is pretty much the same concept as yin and yang)… but i'm afraid this understanding is actually very simplistic and could easily make one forget about their actual dynamic relation - leading to kind of black and white view and such mental shortcuts that you write about here yet ascribe to others

the universe together with our galaxy is supposedly ever-expanding and active and on a constant move and our earth is following that movement, as if controlled by it, but at the same time it runs around itself and around the sun and is constantly dividing itself... and we are part of it. or both actually... there might be more and more space out there, in space, yet we're starting to run out of space here on earth. but enough with the paradoxes...

and in the most primal sense, indeed, one can easily observe, that earth is made up of all broken lines, that create a hole, while heaven is made out of only solid lines - you probably know where i'm going with this...

on that note, i had a weird conversation lately with someone, who supposedly listens to, pardon the literal quote, "pussy" music. i didn't get insulted at all, but few days later that person made a correction saying they shouldn't call weak music like that. only then i corrected them saying that i've heard that music and it's not to do with how strong or weak it is, it's simply nice, gentle and soft

so, going back to the mother analogy - i'd think most vaginas are stronger than any penis and that's a perfect example of yang within the yin (strength being a yang element, the tiny luminous dot, within the darkness of the „fish” of the yin-yang symbol ) - but it doesn't always have to be the case, same as the heaven isn't necessarily in any generic way more active than earth, because all of it is relative and undergoing a constant change…

lastly, even our own languages give some clues into this notion, as passive already carries within itself the idea of action - From Middle French, Old French passif, from Latin passivus - “serving to express the suffering of an action; in late Latin literally capable of suffering or feeling”.

thanks for this space and letting me explore and share such thoughts, as well as keeping up with my ramblings...

Thanks Charly, a few thoughts:

charly said:

On 1.3 I have an alternative almost literal traduction:

君子終日乾乾jun1 zi3 zhong1 ri4 qian2 qian2 ... NOBLE SON ALL DAY LONG VROOM-VROOOM!!!​

Of course the alternatives are uncountable for reduplications use to be taken as sound words, onomatopoeias, often with little relation with the stand-alone one-syllabe word and often pointing to another words with similar, not identical, sound ... Say qian-qian can be borrowed for another reduplication with the same phonetics, no matters the tone, or with similar sound like jian-jian, ... han-han, and so on.

(2) The primal metaphor in the Changes is, I believe, of sexual nature, the sexual reproductive mode.

Click to expand...

So,

• I'm curious, is this your translation (or traduction, which I think means "an act of defaming" and I don't see how that fits here)? and if not yours, whose?

As to seeing repeated words - i.e. qian2 qian2, etc. as onomatopoeias:

• Are you saying this is your understanding of how repeated words were used in ancient Chinese - based on what others have found out? Or is this your own idea?
  
  
• And are you saying that these repeated words are fluid and can be used interchangeably (e.g. 'often with little relation'), so qian2 qian2, (creating, creating) could become any number or things: vroom-vroom, or vigor-vigor, or view-view, bark-bark, meow-meow ... and so forth? And again - since I have never heard of this - what is your source for this?
  
  (I am not a linguist or sinologists, but I have read that repeated words often indicate a degree of intensity, or that something is more long lasting than if it happens only once).

And ... as to "the primal metaphor in the Changes is ... of sexual nature ...", I do not agree. Sex and sexual relations are found and used in the Yi, but not pervasively, and often as metaphors for other aspects of human interaction. Also, I'm not sure if there is a 'primal metaphor' - or what that even means? - for the Yi; and if there is one, I don't know it.


Regards, David.

Legume, thanks for joining in. As to:

legume said:

... so even though there's probably no need to use either yin or yang to describe the first two hexagrams, i'd find it weird to run away from the fact that they're fully built out of either 0's or 1's (which is pretty much the same concept as yin and yang)… but i'm afraid this understanding is actually very simplistic and could easily make one forget about their actual dynamic relation - leading to kind of black and white view and such mental shortcuts that you write about here yet ascribe to others

Click to expand...

I am a bit confused by some of this, so I welcome your clarifications:

First: "i'd find it weird to run away from the fact that they're fully built out of either 0's or 1's." -- I am not sure who or what you mean here? Whom is running away (one of the participants in this thread ... or?) And what exactly are they running away from?

And, again: "i'm afraid this understanding is actually very simplistic" -- whose understand of what is simplistic?

And finally: such mental shortcuts that you write about here yet ascribe to others -- again, what mental shortcut are you referring to, and whom is the writer you are referring to (who is ascribing something to others)?

I know that I am not always clear - so I'm in no place to be tossing stones or 0s and 1s, or even mental shortcuts - but by way of a suggestion, it is always helpful if you can quote the text you're referring to, along with identifying the author(s).


Thanks, David.

Freedda said:

Thanks Charly, a few thoughts:
So,

• I'm curious, is this your translation (or traduction, which I think means "an act of defaming" and I don't see how that fits here)? and if not yours, whose?

Click to expand...

The translation is mine, as far as I remember. I didn't read nothing similar but always exist the possibility of an unconscious reminiscence, anyone could have done it with the idea of ​​an onomatopoeia, duplicating a word sounding like qian or rhyming with qian.

There are many possibilities with different nuances of meaning, some converging, some even contradictory.

Playing with words not necessarily injures the reputation of anybody. If somebody feels hurt, I apologize!

As to seeing repeated words - i.e. qian2 qian2, etc. as onomatopoeias, I'm a bit confused:

• Are you saying this is your understanding - based on what others have learned - of how repeated words were used in ancient Chinese? Or is this your own idea?
  
• And are you saying that these repeated words are fluid and can be used interchangeably (e.g. 'often with little relation'), so qian2 qian2, (creating, creating) ...
  (I am not a linguist or sinologists, but I have read that repeated words often indicate a degree of intensity, or that something is more long lasting, than if it happens only once).

Click to expand...

Reduplications as onomatopoeias are common in chinese, common in the Changes as in the Book of Poetry. Read the first song (Mao nº 1)

關雎:
關關雎鳩、在河之洲。
窈窕淑女、君子好逑。
Guan Ju:
Guan-guan go the ospreys, On the islet in the river.
The modest, retiring, virtuous, young lady: For our prince a good mate she.

Source: Chinese Text Project, Shi Jin and Legge translation.

關關 [guan1guan1], n., (AC) imitation of the sound made by birds.
Source: Lin Yutang Online Dictionary

Click to expand...

Trust me, I didn't invented it. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe that can find something about it in Rick Kunst and Ed. Shaughnessy dissertations. If I find a quote I will post it for you.

And ... as to "the primal metaphor in the Changes is ... of sexual nature ...", I do not agree. First, sex and sexual relations are found and used in the Yi, but not pervasively, and often as metaphors for other aspects of human interaction. And second, I'm not sure if there is a 'primal metaphor' - or what that even means? - for the Yi; and if there is one, I don't know it.
Regards, David.

Click to expand...

I didn't invented it, I know that the idea is opinable, but thinkj that sex pervades all human activities, even more literature. In a culture where from old times sex was object of so heavy social control that people could not speak about it if not with metaphors, metonimies, puns an double-entenders, the return of the repressed could hardly be avoided.

But this is a bit complicated and needs more work.
(To be continued)

All the best,

Charly

Thanks for the response Charly. You clearly have explored this far more than I have.

charly said:

There are many possibilities with different nuances of meaning, some converging, some even contradictory. Playing with words not necessarily injures the reputation of anybody. If somebody feels hurt, I apologize! Reduplications as onomatopoeias are common in Chinese, common in the Changes as in the Book of Poetry ....

Click to expand...

A follow-up question: do you think that there may be a range of possibilities/options for how doubled words (i.e. reduplications) are treated? For example, that they could be seen as onomatopoeias (as you mentioned), or as an emphasis, or as an indication of a duration of time (as I’ve read about)? Or are the options more limited?

Also, I don’t know of anyone’s ‘injured reputation’, and I’m not sure how you got that from my post? (or if you were just having a bit of fun.)


Best, David.

Freedda said:

Thanks for the response Charly. You clearly have explored this far more than I have. A follow-up question: do you think that there may be a range of possibilities/options for how doubled words (i.e. reduplications) are treated? For example, that they could be seen as onomatopoeias (as you mentioned), or as an emphasis, or as an indication of a duration of time (as I’ve read about)? Or are the options more limited?
Best, David.

Click to expand...

Hi, David:
I'm only an amateur in translating the chinese of the Changes but I have a long practice in social research.

I use to read disorderly here and there and make CONNECTIONS, sometimes experimental connections.

Later I can forget where I've read about a given matter. But I'm use to be quite sure that I'm not inventing. All that I say is BORROWED from somewhere or somebody.

About reduplications in the Changes and maybe in the Songs, I believe that a reduplication functions as a DEVICE to get the reader halt and think: «there must be here something different from the word standing alone».

Maybe the use has attached to the reduplication a given meaning that can be found in dictionaries as idioms. If not, or even so, the meaning of the standalone word can became more intense or with some nuances that we must get at the fly.

If the word functions as a verb the reduplication can mean repretition, continuity or increasing rhythm of the action. If the reduplication is used as a sound word it can have a fixed meaning like in comics baloons or can be a neologism whose meaning must be decoded from the context, like in «guaguan go the ospreys» or by divination, trying and error.

But at least the meanings of the standalone word shuld give a CLUE.

About VROOM-VROOOM! for 乾乾 quian2 quian2:

I understand VROOM-VROOOM!!! as «increasing the speed of a car or a motorcycle».

Let us try with some alternatives:

乾, qian2: male heavenly generative principle, warming principle of the sun, ► 乾乾, qian2 qian2: always MANLY ► increasingly HORNY. (1)
乾, gan1: dry, dried food, sun dried ► 乾乾 gan1 gan1: cleaned up, without money ► incresingly poor ► GAMBLING.
謙, qian1: modest, humble ► 謙謙 qian1 qian1: modest and cautious [Lin Yutang], MODESTAMENTE. (2)
虔, qian2: devout ► 虔虔 qian2 qian2: REVERENT [Lin Yutang] (3)
杆, gan1: shaft, pole, flagpole ► planted on central place, held firmly, rising high ► 杆杆 gan1 gan1: CONSPICUOUS.
竿, gan1: pole, rod, bamboo pole // penis ► BRAGGING.
桿, gan3: wooden stick or rod, authority symbol ► 桿桿, gan3 gan3: big stick ► always MENACING.
趕, gan3: to hurry ► 趕趕 gan3 gan3: to accelerate, to speed up ► more and more ► ACCELERANDO, VROOM-VROOOM!!!
敢, gan3: to dare, to presume, bold, brave ► 敢敢 gan3 gan3: TEMERARIOUS ► RECKLESS.
感, gan3: feeling, emotion, appeal // to feel / to touch feelings ► 感感 gan3 gan3: appealing, touching people's emotions ► behaving like a CHARISMATIC LEADER ► SEDUCTION.
倝, gan4: old variant of 乾, dawn ► 倝倝, gan4 gan4: always early-rising, taking advantage. COCK CROWING.
幹, gan4: stem, tree trunk, human trunk, arrow shaft // power, ability ► 幹幹, gan4 gan4: always powerful, skilled. PHALLIC?
幹, gan4: to work, to manage, to do // to do it, to F_CK ► always working ► always «active», always «creative».

The list is short, it lacks of many characters/words rhyming with qian, more qian and gan but also jian, xian, han and the like. (4)

Also, I don’t know of anyone’s ‘injured reputation’, and I’m not sure how you got that from my post? (or if you were just having a bit of fun.)

Click to expand...

Maybe I misunderstood something in your post, don't worry, I apologize

All the best,

Charly
____________________________________
(1) Nobody's perfect! Of course, centuries of traditional commentaries have fixe the meaning of 乾乾 quian2 quian2 = «to strive ceaselessly». Maybe in han times it was commonly understood while the original meaning of the character standing alone was already lost or almost lost.

(2) Not an opposition with the last part of the line: «all the day long modest and cautious, at the night even more cautious» ► untiringly cautious or maybe worse: always cautious but at the night also tired and worrying. I wonder why this alternative has little press among traditionalists. Or am I wrong?

(3) Similar to (2), «all the day long reverent, at the night respectful » ► maybe in public reverent with people, at the night respectful with ladies, «a person of noble character» indeed!

(4) The previous list is based mainly in Lin Yutang online dictionary and MDBG:

Better go to the source, see the post by Harmen:

hmesker said:

The problem with the names of hexagram 1 & 2 is that they only occur in the Yijing and nowhere else. If they are used in other texts they refer to the names of these hexagrams. We don't have any reliable sources or context to know what 乾 and 坤 really mean, other than later commentaries and dictionaries that uses these commentaries as a source.

About hexagram 1 see http://yjcn.nl/serendipity/archives/47-The-banner-of-qian.html .

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The Banner of Qian is a must. And full of sexual imagery. I believe, please, tell me if I'm wrong.

Ch.

charly said:

... The Banner of Qian is a must. And full of sexual imagery. I believe, please, tell me if I'm wrong.

Click to expand...

You asked, so ... yes, you are wrong.

Or more correctly, I have read the 'the banner of 'qian'' a few times now and there is nothing in it that I see which talks about sex, or sexual organs, or intercourse, ... etc. And I don't read into it any metaphor or imagery alluding to this. I've also done a word search through a version of the Yi I use and trust and I did not once find where it uses any words related to sex or sexual power (nor sex organs, intercourse, ...).

I'm not trying to convince you or change your mind, only that I'm seeing this quite differently and I don't see sex or sexual relations as the main theme of Hex. 1 or the Yi.

This not to say that fertility, or generation or regeneration, or unions and communion are not a part of the Yi - far from it. I just don't give it the label of 'sex.' And as either Groucho or Freud once said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Or a banner is just a banner shining in the early morning sun - perhaps signifying creative power, new ideas and potential.


Regards, David.