The Abyss of Line 1.4

Freedda · May 28, 2019

Line 1.4 reads:

Someone dancing in the abyss. No mistake. ... or ...

Probably leaping from an abyss. No fault.... or ...

Somehow to dance across the deep. With no mistakes.

(Different interpretations have the dance happening in, across, above, or leaping from the abyss.)

I noticed that the word used here for the abyss or the deep is Yuan1 (gulf, chasm, depth, deep), and it is only used this one time in the Yi. This is in contrast to Kan3, which also means chasm, or depth (and also risk, danger, pit, hole, etc.) and which is the name of both Hexagram 29 and the trigram Water. (Kan is used a few times, but only in the oracle text and line text of 29.)

I'm wondering, is there a particular reason or significance why Yuan was used here in this line, instead of Kan? And is this difference important or not?

Best, D.

mandarin_23 · May 28, 2019

This is interesting, even though I don't really know that much. The meaning "abyss" seems to be quite different to "chasm". An abyss, this is depth, an open space. Dancing in an abyss, this sounds like lyrics to me, as if it was a proverb or a line from a poem or so.

Not sure if it could mean something similar to "in limbo", an open, but promising situation?
Dancing in a chasm, however, would be hard to imagine …

Liselle · Jun 1, 2019

Hilary often suggests looking things up on Richard Sears' site, which I am not good at, but this might be his page on yuan1: https://hanziyuan.net/#淵

And here's perhaps the page on kan3: https://hanziyuan.net/#坎

What seems to be said is that yuan1 means things like deep, surge up, bubble up, gush forth, "whorl-pool," and kan3 means things like pit, hole, snare, trap, crisis.

I never thought of 1.4 like that. I always envisioned a canyon or ravine. (Disclaimer: not a geologist, using words un-scientifically...)

It's confusing that hexagram 29 and the kan trigram are watery, and hexagram 1 is not, but yuan1 sounds more watery than kan3, at least on Sears' site. But I could definitely be doing it wrong.

Freedda · Jun 1, 2019

Liselle said:
Hilary often suggests looking things up on Richard Sears' site, which I am not good at, but this might be his page on yuan1: https://hanziyuan.net/#淵. And here's perhaps the page on kan3: https://hanziyuan.net/#坎

Thanks Liselle. One time Hilary told me about using Sear's site, but I've never really tried it ... so your using it here is a good introduction.

I too found it interesting that Yuan seems more related to water, as in water + whirling, as in a whirlpool or a maelstrom (very loosely, Dutch: grinding + stream). Also, some of the related / corresponding characters have what looks like 3 or 6 drops of water or rain.

Kan seems more related to a pit or trap, and some of the related / corresponding characters show what looks like a pit with three stakes on either side and an animal or snake in the middle. For the three lines of trigram Kan I've always thought of the two broken lines on either side of a solid as depicting the stones on the two shores of a river (the solid middle line) but maybe they too might be two stakes on each side of the pit, where something or someone 'solid' is trapped?

It is also interesting - at least from what I could glean from Sear's site - that Yuan has related (older) oracle and bronze characters, whereas Kan does not. Could it be that Yuan is simply an older term - perhaps with similar meanings?

It is impossible for me to draw any firm or final conclusions (especially since my knowledge of the Yi and of Chinese is so limited), but:

Perhaps among the group of diviners who wrote the Zhouyi, the one who authored Line 1.4 used Yuan because they felt it was more appropriate or that they were more familar with it.
Yuan suggests to me a natural process or occurance - whirling, grinding, stirred-up waters, whereas Kan suggests a more human-made situation: falling into a trap that someone has set. So ... maybe 1.4 is about dancing in the face of an excited or upsetting natural occurance (or even our own true nature?), whereas with Kan, the dance - or a dangerous encounter - is with someone else?

But all that is pure and simple conjecture on my part. And of course none of this touches on what might be the 'positive' aspects of Kan: going with the flow, a hightened awareness to one's environment, to continue to work on one's character and conduct in the face of adversity, and that 'to keep the heart secure is fulfillment.'

Best, David.

Liselle · Jun 2, 2019

How I go about looking things up there is by looking at Bradford's Book Two for the pictograph and also the name of it (e.g. "kan3") - then Google "kan3 chinese" - then, when looking through the Google results for the pictograph, compare the pictographs I see with the one Bradford uses to make sure they're identical - then select (highlight) the pictograph in the Google results, copy it with ctrl-c, then paste it with ctrl-v into the search box on Sears' site.

If you come up with a simpler way of doing this, please let me know...

Freedda · Jun 2, 2019

Thanks again Liselle. I have a question about Sear's website - for you or anyone's else.

I looked up 潛 - 'qian2' (0918) on his site. The search worked and it shows a related 'seal' script character and a related 'Liushutong' script character, each with an associated number (s08202 for the seal script), so I am wondering how I can then learn more about these related older characters? I didn't see any search options on site.

Separately, I searched for 's08202' in Google, and an image of the character came up as part of the Google commons 'Ancient Chinese characters project' but it only has an image of the character and no info about its meaning. D.

- image of qian2' (0918)

- image of related seal character.

Liselle · Jun 4, 2019

I'm sorry, Freedda, you may as well be speaking Greek to me for most of that.

Freedda · Jun 4, 2019

Liselle said:
I'm sorry, Freedda, you may as well be speaking Greek to me for most of that.

Sorry. My Greek is not very good! I mean, when you look up a word on Sear's site - as you did twice above - the web page will show oracle, bronze, and seal script characters that are related to the word you were asking about. They have titles or 'tags' with them like 'S09234' but there's no further information about these characters that I can find. I am wondering how I can find more information about them - like their meaning, root, etc.

Liselle · Jun 4, 2019

Oh, I see.

Well - I ignore all that, haha, because I have no idea what it is. The only thing I do is look around the page for words in English. This is the sort of thing I meant when I said I'm not sure I'm doing it right.

I'd guess Sears probably figures his target audience knows what they're doing. (People like us are probably not his target audience.)

Freedda · Jun 4, 2019

Liselle said:
.... Well - I ignore all that, haha, because I have no idea what it is. The only thing I do is look around the page for words in English. This is the sort of thing I meant when I said I'm not sure I'm doing it right .... I'd guess Sears probably figures his target audience knows what they're doing. (People like us are probably not his target audience.)

Yes! I just found it interesting to see the related and probably earlier characters and I wanted to learn more about this. With Kan, for example (as I mentioned above), a few of the related figures look like the image of an animal in a trap, but others I didn't really understand, so I wanted to delve more into these ....

Best, D.

rosada · Jun 4, 2019

Consider that the fourth position is that of the guide or teacher but here at hexagram 1 everything is being newly created, there is no previous experience or teacher.. All the person can do is to prepare as best they can - 1.3 - and then with a leap of faith, step off the edge sans any guide and trust they'll be able to fly.
I use a picture of Dumbo the elephant sailing through the air holding tight to his magic feather to illustrate the feeling here.
Anyway, whether one goes with "chasm" or "abyss" the point is that this line describes a situation where there are no rules or precedents to guide us, but this newness in itself does not necessarily make it a hostile situation - thus the dancing! - it's more like a "You don't know what you can do until you do it" moment. Like you can practice all you want giving a speech in front of a mirror but it doesn't mean anything until you preform before a live audience.
"Do or don't do - there is no try!"

Liselle · Jun 4, 2019

rosada said:
Consider that the fourth position is that of the guide or teacher but here at hexagram 1 everything is being newly created, there is no previous experience or teacher.. All the person can do is to prepare as best they can - 1.3 - and then with a leap of faith, step off the edge sans any guide and trust they'll be able to fly.
I use a picture of Dumbo the elephant sailing through the air holding tight to his magic feather to illustrate the feeling here.
Anyway, whether one goes with "chasm" or "abyss" the point is that this line describes a situation where there are no rules or precedents to guide us, but this newness in itself does not necessarily make it a hostile situation - thus the dancing! - it's more like a "You don't know what you can do until you do it" moment.

*scavenges for notes* - :bows:

charly · Jun 12, 2019

Freedda said:
Line 1.4 reads:

Someone dancing in the abyss. No mistake. ... or ...
Probably leaping from an abyss. No fault.... or ...
Somehow to dance across the deep. With no mistakes.
(Different interpretations have the dance happening in, across, above, or leaping from the abyss.)
...
I'm wondering, is there a particular reason or significance why Yuan was used here in this line, instead of Kan? And is this difference important or not?
Best, D.

Hi, David:

I believe that, in connection with waters imagery, while Kan symbolizes the moving waters of a stream or river, Yuan symbolizes the still waters of a deep pond. I don't like too much ABYSS wich is less concrete.

Leaving aside the moral or philosophical perspectives, going to the most concrete, I believe that 1.4 refers to the place where the dragon rests or sleeps and from where suddenly appears partially visible in the sky. (1)

A quick and literal translation could be:

PERHAPS LEAPING INTO DEEPS (IS) NO WRONG.
Say, perhaps, it also could be wrong. Do it or not at your own risk.

Also a literal translation but thinking on the DRAGON could be better:

PERHAPS LEAPING FROM DEEPS (IS) NO WRONG.
The Dragon is leaping OUT of the deeps to get the sky.

Of course, the appearance of the Azure Dragon in the sky cannot be wrong if not out of the proper season wich never happens. Then, why to say perhaps?

The word perhaps, maybe, keeps open a wide diversity of suitable stories. If we want to emulate the Dragon we could not know with accuracy when or how to jump or maybe we could not endure too much in the bottom of the pond. Better avoid to get into the pond, better to avoid to fall into the abyss. (2)

Of course, there are much more stories in the same line (3), YUAN means not only deep, also profound, applied to knowledge an experience. Always exists the possibility of failure, go cautious, be prepared, but if we overthink some things and don't take some risks we will NEVER KNOW. Sometimes it's worse not to have tried than to fail. Sometimes there is a second chance and then experience matters.

All the best,

Charly

______________________
(1) See Edward Shaughnessy's hypothesis about H.1 describing how is seen the Dragon Constellation in the chinese sky at different seasons, in «Before Confucius». It's also useful to see LiSe page.

(2) The character for yue, to LEAP, to JUMP (dancing seems crazy to me) is the same of Mao's «The Great Leap Forward». Perhaps no wrong, perhaps worse.

(3) In connection with the imagery of H.1 there is also the custom of the Chinese Alligators, known as Dragons, able to endure much time resting in the bottom of the ponds, although they surely don't jump up to the sky.

Ch.

hmesker · Jun 12, 2019

Perhaps there is no 'perhaps' in the Yijing. Dee https://www.yjcn.nl/wp/about-tuan-彖-and-hexagram-1-judgement-and-lines-1-4/ and https://www.yjcn.nl/wp/hexagram-7-line-3/ .

heylise · Jun 19, 2019

In creation myths there is often (always?) a chaos before anything comes forth. In China it is a watery one.
The lines of hex.1 talk about a dragon. I think in the fourth line the dragon is dancing above the abyss behind the edge of the world, where this big unfathomable huge water is. He is doing that literally: there is a time in the year when the dragon constellation is visible on the horizon, but only his (its, her, whatever) upper part.

Nobody knows how the dragon can dance there, so they wonder about it.
The sun is also quite familiar with this place. Every day it travels through this same water back to the east, after sinking down into it in the west.

When this line changes, trigram heaven turns into trigram wind. Lots of movement there, and wind doesn't need any solid footing, it is free to dance wherever it wants to: "and the spirit hovered over the waters".

I also think the fear in hex.9 line 4 (the corresponding line in the hex. it changes into) has to do with 1.4: if you have fear, you cannot dance in the abyss. You need complete freedom of fears, doubts, anything which holds you back if you want to do something 'impossible'.

If you get 1.4, I think it tells you to 'go for it', whatever you ask about, without any second thought.

heylise · Jun 19, 2019

Charly (3) In connection with the imagery of H.1 there is also the custom of the Chinese Alligators, known as Dragons, able to endure much time resting in the bottom of the ponds, although they surely don't jump up to the sky.

Yes they do!!
Dragons/alligators flying

my_key · Jun 19, 2019

Here's a few thoughts -
Abyss - Something that is immeasurably deep or infinite (the void)
Chasm - Something so deep that it's full extent is not visible. (suggests it does have form, size, shape etc).
The chasm is limiting the abyss is limitless.

So at 1.4 the dragon is coming together from somewhere in the unknown. I like Karcher's
" Inspiring Force: "Someone" is playing in the Primal Abyss. This is not a mistake."

At line 4 " someone" is having some fun and games. Nothing is concrete there is no form as yet - it is just creative energy coming together at the heart centre. It will be what it will be and needs to be treated playfully as it dances and twists. It is the starting foothold of a creative tension as yet unclear which way to move and spring from the abyss. Wilhelm talks of the yin and yang of each situation both being possible and what forms is "according to the inner law" and because of this there is "no general law to say which of the two is the right way".

It may not so much be Dumbo's feather as the essence that becomes the feather, but only if the feather is the deep truth that is held within the essence. What ever comes out of the abyss will be right and appropriate for that time; for that twist, for that dance and therefore there is nothing that can be wrong about it as it has come from a place of truth.

As always it may be none of these things as well.
Perhaps it is like Schrodingers Cat an unformed entity both dead and alive waiting in its cosy abysmal box. It's only when you lift the lid that you can see what you've got. There is no mistake if it is a dead cat and there is no mistake if it is a live cat. It is just essence (and possibilities) until you start to harvest the view.

Good Luck

charly · Jun 22, 2019

heylise said:
Yes they do!!
Dragons/alligators flying

Hi, LiSe:

I never believed that Chinese alligators would climb to heaven!
Of course, now, reading your link, I understand that it's possible,

Source: Li Se's «Yi Jing, Oracle of the Moon»
Link: https://www.yijing.nl/YiMages/01-dragons-2.html

Your image of the Heaven's Dick reminds me the story of Liu Bang, the first Han Emperor that lacking credentials of legitimacy got someone to write a mythical story about his miraculous birth, in line with other birth myths of ancient cultural heroes or dynastic founders. (1)

He became the Son of a Dragon, and if a Dragon is in the Dick of Heaven, he was the legitimate Son of Heaven, the Emperor who have received the Heaven's Mandate...

But that's maybe another story. Maybe I didn't understand it right!

All the best,

Charly
_____________________________-

Who Was Liu Bang?

Liu Bang was born into a peasant family in Pei County ... which was then part of the conquered state of Chu. When Liu Bang became emperor, legendary tales about his origins were created, so as to provide legitimacy to his rule ...

One of these myths, for example, tells of how Liu Bang was conceived. In this tale, his mother was caught in a storm and sought shelter under a bridge ... When her husband came to her ... he saw a dragon beside her.

Liu Bang is said to have been conceived shortly after this supernatural incident.

Source: https://www.ancient-origins.net/his...iu-bang-peasant-rebel-chinese-emperor-0010018

Ch.

charly · Jun 22, 2019

charly said:
Hi, LiSe:
I never believed that Chinese alligators would climb to heaven!
Of course, now, reading your link, I understand that it's possible...

Why not, if a JUMPING CARP CAN BECOME A DRAGON?

charly said:
Jumping to become a Dragon

Look for the story at: www.egreenway.com/dragonsrealms/DT3.htm

Not every carp could do it, only the One Outstanding Carp...

I will not tell what connections are behind the Dragon Carp Myth, that's another story, that maybe you should not believe.

All the best,

Charly

Freedda · Jun 23, 2019

Thanks LiSe, et al. I started this thread by asking ...

I'm wondering, is there a particular reason or significance why Yuan was used here in this line, instead of Kan? And is this difference important or not?

With your response, along with others ...

I am thinking that this distinction of Yuan vs Kan (or a dry pit vs a watery abyss) may not be all that important or central to the meaning of the line. Instead you have ...

'There is a leap over an abyss. There is no curse from the ancestors.'

... or ...

'Somehow capering (skiping or dancing about in a lively or playful way) over the abyss. Without fault.'

And so perhaps more central is your idea of ....

heylise said:
I also think the fear ... has to do with 1.4: if you have fear, you cannot dance in the abyss. You need complete freedom of fears, doubts, anything which holds you back if you want to do something 'impossible' .... (and) If you get 1.4, I think it tells you to 'go for it', whatever you ask about, without any second thought.

Maybe too, to simply face your fear and go for it.

By way of explanation - if any is needed - I was mainly exploring specifc word meanings and usage, as I might look into the difference between 'car' and 'automobile' or to wonder about the Latin or Proto-Aryan roots of an English word, and what those roots meant, or - as in the case of Kan - how a word for a dry pit or canyon got to be about water. A curious inquiry as I said.

Best, D.

rosada · Jun 24, 2019

Thinking how this line describes creative thinking, playing with ideas, and about why "watery abyss" would be more applicable here than "dry pit". Maybe there's something about the nature of water that we intuitively connect with creation. For example, in team projects people come together with their own carefully thought out ideas - 1.3 - but then they create by tossing the ideas into the air without censorship to see what others can make of them or what new ideas might be generated. This is called "brain storming" - another example of water being used as an image for creating.

Liselle · Jun 24, 2019

There are theories that life began in the oceans, and here's also one saying it began in what they call "mud pots".

National Geographic News (Feb. 2012)

Earth's first cellular life probably arose in vats of warm, slimy mud fed by volcanically heated steam—and not in primordial oceans, scientists say.

...

Mud pots are where steam is coming out of the earth and condensing, carrying with it many minerals, including potassium," Mulkidjanian said. "They look like slime coming out of the earth and would make a nice kind of hatchery for the first cells.

bradford · Jun 28, 2019

Consider that this is still the dragon's Gua. Once he manages to grip the wind, the abyss is his element. But until then it's scary even to him.

heylise · Jun 28, 2019

I love that image, the dragon gripping the wind!
And when he does, it is also the other way.

rosada · Jun 29, 2019

“To feel you all around me,
And to take your hand,
Along the sand..
Ah, but I might as well try to catch the wind”
Donovan

my_key · Jun 30, 2019

bradford said:
Consider that this is still the dragon's Gua. Once he manages to grip the wind, the abyss is his element. But until then it's scary even to him.

Heaven is a powerful mover. Moving nothing to become something begins at the source. It can be scary to trust in the wind from where we stand now. We create the world we are best able to create through our choices. If we grasp too hard at the wind of change we are seeking it slips through our fingers, or even becomes a tempest in our life. The art of riding the wind can take a long time to learn and even longer to master, especially when we think there are no parachutes. Remember, if you have a dragon in close proximity, the need for a paracute is reduced.

The Abyss of Line 1.4

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