How to Learn the Yijing Gig?

wealth · Mar 13, 2008

For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Surely there must be more than just that?

meng · Mar 13, 2008

Doing is the harder part.

Tohpol · Mar 13, 2008

wealth said:
For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Surely there must be more than just that?

Are you actually wanting a serious reply to that?

Topal

martin · Mar 13, 2008

wealth said:
For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Surely there must be more than just that?

If the Tarot was catholic the Yi would be protestant.

The Yi gives you text instead of images and the symbolism is more austere and black/white, less rich and colorful than the symbolism of the Tarot.
Of course there is more richness and color in the Yi than what meets the eye initially, you have to get used to it, also because it uses symbols from a China of long ago and that is a bit far from home for most westerners. The Tarot is closer to home.
Still, the Yi is not the Tarot. And I think these two oracles also tap a different kind of knowing and understanding. The Tarot seems more 'astral', the Yi more 'etheric'. It's not exactly that the Tarot is more emotional and the Yi more intellectual but there is a similar difference.
Anyway, perhaps the Yi is not for you or perhaps it is, it depends on what you want and like, but if you like oracles, I think they can complement eachother. The Tarot can give you one perspective, the Yi another.

Sparhawk · Mar 13, 2008

wealth said:
For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Ask Confucius??

dobro · Mar 14, 2008

wealth said:
For me tarot was simple as I just read tonnes of books on tarot and related subjects. Now the Yijing seems different, how can reading the same words over and over again (okay with different views from author to author) be good learning?

Surely there must be more than just that?

Use it every day. After a while, you'll be more familiar with it.

bricogirl · Mar 14, 2008

I don't know the Tarot so I can't comment on the differences between it and the I Ching. I'm just getting started with the Yi but I find it to be a source of much wisdom, perhaps plenty for a lifetime.

I'm wondering what the experienced readers out there think of how long it takes to get to know the Yi and become comfortable in using it? I started out by falling in love, became hopelessly confused, was led to buy Hilary's course which cleared up a lot of things, than proceeded to make a fine mess of my new relationship. Now at my 48th query I am calming down and feel the conversation is back on track.

Can some of you more experienced folks indicate how long it took you to start feeling really comfortable with the Yi and maybe some highlights of the relationship? Some perspective like that would surely help me along at this point.

Kind Regards - Kim

meng · Mar 14, 2008

bricogirl said:
I don't know the Tarot so I can't comment on the differences between it and the I Ching. I'm just getting started with the Yi but I find it to be a source of much wisdom, perhaps plenty for a lifetime.

I'm wondering what the experienced readers out there think of how long it takes to get to know the Yi and become comfortable in using it? I started out by falling in love, became hopelessly confused, was led to buy Hilary's course which cleared up a lot of things, than proceeded to make a fine mess of my new relationship. Now at my 48th query I am calming down and feel the conversation is back on track.

Can some of you more experienced folks indicate how long it took you to start feeling really comfortable with the Yi and maybe some highlights of the relationship? Some perspective like that would surely help me along at this point.

Kind Regards - Kim

Tarot seems good at giving a picture of the thing inquired of, but for me it's rather two dimensional, in that there's no philosophical theme to it as a whole. Or none I've found, at any rate.

IC can also, of course, give a picture of the thing inquired of, but whether real or made up in our own heads, it seems to point in a direction.

Your "falling in love" experience I can relate with. The first time a friend led me through the reading process, I was smitten - in love. It quickly became a way of life, as I became obsessed with it: over-used it, abused it, seriously misunderstood much of it; but in all that, I got the gist of its spirit or tao - and that became the real addiction. There's a sense of direction, though that sense has become more subtle, refined and realistic over forty years. It's something I can point to, even if I can't completely grasp it.

martin · Mar 14, 2008

meng said:
Tarot seems good at giving a picture of the thing inquired of, but for me it's rather two dimensional, in that there's no philosophical theme to it as a whole.

Ay, don't let Tarot lovers hear that!

I'm less familiar with the Tarot than with the Yi but even to me the Yi seems relatively 'flat'. In musical terms, it's like the Tarot is a symphony and the Yi a piece for one instrument. And there is certainly no lack of philosophy or direction in the Tarot system. But it's maybe not so easy to grasp that direction, the guidance that it can give, exactly because it's richer and more complicated.

Sparhawk · Mar 14, 2008

martin said:
Ay, don't let Tarot lovers hear that!
I'm less familiar with the Tarot than with the Yi but even to me the Yi seems relatively 'flat'. In musical terms, it's like the Tarot is a symphony and the Yi a piece for one instrument.

What did you have for breakfast this morning?? I told you not to spike your morning coffee... :rolling:

martin · Mar 14, 2008

sparhawk said:
What did you have for breakfast this morning?? I told you not to spike your morning coffee...

Ah, you didn't know? I draw a Tarot card every morning. If it's favorable I eat it, if it's unfavorable I go back to bed. :rolling:

maremaria · Mar 14, 2008

Hi Kim,

My experience with Yi it counts less than a year. Before that had no experience with Tarot or other similar things. I have heard about Yi but never did any effort to study it. Don’t know why I didn’t and why some months ago I did. Still now I can’t explain it, why this specific day , I googled “I ching” . Why I took those three coins and started tossing? Why I did open that door? And then , like you and Bruce also mentioned, me too felt in love , with all the pros and cons some of falling in love. First obsessed (did all those things Bruce mentions) then a little less obsessed and now little bit more relaxed. Now, when I don’t get the meaning of an answer I leave it for a while without thinking and suddenly from* no where* I hear the answer in my head.

I guess my relationship with Yi is as all those significant relationships that become better a better as time goes. You observe and understand the other part, you observe and understand you self and by letting thing flow, as the times allow, it becomes better. The less resistance and control from my part the better that relationship becomes. I hear thing I like, I hear thing I don’t like, I hear things I didn’t knew that I knew. I’m not sure if there will be any time that I might fell really comfortable regarding my understanding . To me see as an endless path , I’m walking the best way I can . Sometimes I ‘m satisfied with my progress , some others not. I move forwards, I move backwards and when I fell I have lost direction Yi somehow help me to correct my way.

Some days ago , I thanked a friend for helping me about a matter of mine. He said “I didn’t do that , you did “ . Same with Yi. It doesn’t actually do something for us, but Yi’s advises helps us to do what we have to do. And the more we trust what we hear , the more relaxed we are in that relationship.

Rambling here…..

Maria

meng · Mar 14, 2008

martin said:
Ay, don't let Tarot lovers hear that!
I'm less familiar with the Tarot than with the Yi but even to me the Yi seems relatively 'flat'. In musical terms, it's like the Tarot is a symphony and the Yi a piece for one instrument. And there is certainly no lack of philosophy or direction in the Tarot system. But it's maybe not so easy to grasp that direction, the guidance that it can give, exactly because it's richer and more complicated.

"Tarot seems good at giving a picture of the thing inquired of, but for me it's rather two dimensional, in that there's no philosophical theme to it as a whole. Or none I've found, at any rate."

Sparhawk · Mar 14, 2008

martin said:
Ah, you didn't know? I draw a Tarot card every morning. If it's favorable I eat it, if it's unfavorable I go back to bed.

And all the cardboard doesn't give you a constipation?? You know, we ain't spring chickens anymore. Don't forget a tablespoon of olive oil to down the cards... Unless, of course, all your drawings are bad ones or you are in denial... :rolling:

luz · Mar 14, 2008

In denial?

Do you know anybody who is *not* in denial, Luis?? :rolling:

But, surely, Martin exaggerates. If he liked the tarot so much he would probably be talking to other tarot-minded people in a tarot-minded forum.

I understand what Maria says about 'falling in love' with the Yi. But I think that this is, usually, mostly the 'new toy' feeling we all get when we find it and realize that there is something to it and it will answer your questions, and so on and so on.

But, this is very different from finding a religious or nearly religious depth in the Yi. I think it's a fine line, though. Sometimes I try to justify my position to it, sometimes I plead, sometimes I feel that 'it' loves me.. but I could very well be talking to another part of me, so it's not necessarily an object of reverence to me.

As far as 'learning' to use it, I guess very few people would claim that they know exactly how. I think that what we call intuition plays a huge role in this and you can't get lost in the words or the lines, you need to let it speak directly to you. Gut feeling kind of thing, some of us have much less than others, but that is how it works.

martin · Mar 14, 2008

lightangel said:
But, surely, Martin exaggerates. If he liked the tarot so much he would probably be talking to other tarot-minded people in a tarot-minded forum.

Oh, I didn't mean to say that I like the Tarot more or that the Tarot is 'better' in some way. A symphony is not better than a piece for one instrument, just different.
For some purposes the Yi is better, for others the Tarot, and it's also personal of course.

And yes Meng, I know that what you said is your opinion ..

sergio · Mar 14, 2008

How to learn the Yi gig?The way I prepare for a gig is first I listen to the songs,then I make notes and then practice the hard parts or particular arrangements.Last,I go to band practice and play the songs,make or correct notes and when at home,listen and parctice more.When I get to the gig I forget all about it and trust my intuition,which is almost always right(provided I have done my homework).B a process of analogy learning the Yi is exactly the same:listen(read)make notes-practise everyday,correct notes,and when casting it forget all about it and trust your intuiton which should almost always be right(provided you have done your homework)Last,once the gig is over be aware of your hit and misses,take note of them and remember for there is always another gig to fix your mistakes or enhance your perfomance.The idea is to be able to forget the sheet music and fully concentrate in the art of playing music.The same with the Yi.Oh and don't forget the three commandemts of music

ractice,practice,practice .Victory is a series of lost battles and perseverance is our only weapon to achieve it.Same with the Yi.
Sergio

maremaria · Mar 14, 2008

lightangel said:
In denial?
Do you know anybody who is *not* in denial, Luis??

But, surely, Martin exaggerates. If he liked the tarot so much he would probably be talking to other tarot-minded people in a tarot-minded forum.

I understand what Maria says about 'falling in love' with the Yi. But I think that this is, usually, mostly the 'new toy' feeling we all get when we find it and realize that there is something to it and it will answer your questions, and so on and so on.

But, this is very different from finding a religious or nearly religious depth in the Yi. I think it's a fine line, though.
.

Some people can function in an absence of heart. I’m not one of those people.

For me its vital to “fall in love”, “be in love” or just “love” with the thing I engage myself to. Enthusiasm, passion or love do not necessarily diminish, imo, the potential of going deeper than the surface. Masterpieces are creative not only because of the ability but also from the artist passion and *madness*. So being in love with something is not that negative to me… But maybe is what you meant by saying “I think it's a fine line, though” .

I guess that when this “new toy feeling” evaporates and we still “play” with that toy then it is not just the *attraction* that makes us stay there, but a *commitment *

martin · Mar 14, 2008

sergio said:
How to learn the Yi gig?The way I prepare for a gig is first I listen to the songs,then I make notes and then practice the hard parts or particular arrangements.Last,I go to band practice and play the songs,make or correct notes and when at home,listen and parctice more.When I get to the gig I forget all about it and trust my intuition,which is almost always right(provided I have done my homework).B a process of analogy learning the Yi is exactly the same:listen(read)make notes-practise everyday,correct notes,and when casting it forget all about it and trust your intuiton which should almost always be right(provided you have done your homework)

I like your analogy a lot

But, there is a but .. I think we all tend to overestimate our intuition or openness, and underestimate our blind posts. When the going gets really tough, when the Yi tries to show us things that we don't want to see, will we then understand? Probably not.

That's why I find it problematic if people expect from the Yi or another oracle that it can act as a guide on the inner path.
An oracle can no doubt help there, but I don't believe that it can compete with a 'real' guide. For the simple reason that such a guide can and will correct us if we misunderstand. An oracle will try to correct but probably fail because we will also misunderstand the correction. It has no way to reach us other than through symbols that we can easily misinterpret.

I've seen it too often, people who for various reasons (lack of trust? unwillingness to surrender? fear?) refuse to get real guidance and instead stay with books, videos, oracles and so on. Until it finally dawns on them, maybe after twenty or thirty years, that they perhaps have acquired a lot of wisdom, but that it is unfortunately still mainly talk that they cannot walk.

Better get a real guide as soon as possible, I think. How to find one? That is another topic.

sergio · Mar 15, 2008

Yes,Martin,you are right.When playing music some musicians overestimate the value of inspiration(a different form of intuition).If you don't practice your instrument and your repertoire intution-improvisation-inspiration ,in a word music i,s really hard to come by.The so called muses can only help you if you previously help yourself.With the Yi is the same.One has to study,read and re-read until it is part of our mindset.Also we can read all the music books in the world(please,do not eat them-hence Luis' advise...)but if we do not get up and pick up the instrument and play nothing will ever happen.Same with the Yi. And last but not least,if we constantly question and overintelectualized what we play we do not communicate,first(nobody but us understand what we are playing)and second,our music never evolves (we are stuck in the same place-always correcting and recorrecting)Same with the Yi.As you see it has to be an unending path walked in perfect balance with a clear intent to move forward, sometimes you manage to get through on your own,sometimes somebody-something helps you but,above all one has to stay focused and balanced-that;s when the Yi yields it greatest influence.But we have to be able (or wiling)to put all we learned into practice,fearlessly...and there lies the challenge as you point out.There's no point practising my instrument and be the greatest at home-it means nothing without an audience.Same with the Yi-it means nothing if we dare not put it into action in real life.At least that's my personal opinion.We are all different after all,would'nt you say?
Sergio

bricogirl · Mar 15, 2008

It is so very helpful to me what all of you experienced people are offering here. Thanks to all. I am thinking now that I need to explore taoism to enhance this new relationship. Since the Yi is steeped in taoism, is that not where it is leading us?

Martin - pretty please, just a couple of words on that guide idea. Are you saying I need to get out there and find myself a guru? I've been trying to figure out the world all by myself for years now and the Yi has been the next step on this journey. What are you suggesting?

martin · Mar 15, 2008

bricogirl said:
Martin - pretty please, just a couple of words on that guide idea. Are you saying I need to get out there and find myself a guru? I've been trying to figure out the world all by myself for years now and the Yi has been the next step on this journey. What are you suggesting?

Well, if you can find a good guide on a path that suits you it will certainly be a great help. People often ask if they really 'need' a guide. The answer to that is that you can make some progress on your own but you will very probably get stuck beyond a certain point. And, in any case, you make things very difficult for yourself if you insist on doing it all on your own. Why would you? There is no need to, good guides are available.

Of course you have to be critical, not everybody that calls himself or herself 'master' or 'guru' is authentic. But I think you are quite safe if you look for guidance in one of the old traditions, such as Buddhism or Sufism. There are teachers there that not only have a high level of being but also know how to transmit their realisation to others. That is an art in itself.
I have mentioned only one reason (our blind spots) why an oracle cannot replace a real guide, but there are others. A guide can directly communicate his or her being-quality to you. This is invaluable and it's not something that you can get from books or oracles. You can also not 'invent' it yourself or find it in yourself without help, you wouldn't know where to look.
Transmission of 'being' is what Gurdjieff called 'C-influence'. There is no other way to receive this influence than in the direct contact with a more evolved other.

lindsay · Mar 15, 2008

I agree completely with Martin about the need for guides in life, but I would like to add a couple of points I think are often true. First, one guide is usually not enough over a lifetime. The "great person" who helps you now may later become helpless or even obstructive as you grow and confront different situations. Be prepared to seek help often and in many places. Second, not all guides are professional gurus. In fact, I personally have found more enlightenment from ordinary people who know how to live skilfully and deal wisely with their circumstances. Sometimes a good taxi driver or an excellent plumber have much to teach. Wasn't Jesus a carpenter? Third, many of our biggest problems in life are not "spiritual" in nature. Sometimes you need help understanding what is going on with your spouse, or why some people don't like you, or how to keep your finances straight. Dealing with these problems squarely requires the several different types of expertise. Chanting or praying or visualization may not be an appropriate response. Also, there are many stories about lecherous Zen masters and heroic accountants. Trust your inner voice.

Lindsay

martin · Mar 15, 2008

lindsay said:
First, one guide is usually not enough over a lifetime. The "great person" who helps you now may later become helpless or even obstructive as you grow and confront different situations. Be prepared to seek help often and in many places.

Yes, you need to move on sometimes. It's not a decision that one should make lightly though, because it's possible that ones own resistance gets in the way and that there is nothing wrong with the guidance. And students do resist the teacher and the teachings a lot, you can bet on that.

Second, not all guides are professional gurus. In fact, I personally have found more enlightenment from ordinary people who know how to live skilfully and deal wisely with their circumstances. Sometimes a good taxi driver or an excellent plumber have much to teach.

Working with 'professionals' helped me to recognize the skill, wisdom (and beauty) of others. And I think I can safely say that 'ordinary' people don't exist for me any longer. Everybody is extraordinary. But I don't know, would it be like that if I hadn't met the 'professionals'? I doubt it.

meng · Mar 15, 2008

I think the qualities of a student are far more important than the qualities of the teacher. A great student will learn from everyone and everything.

dobro · Mar 15, 2008

The Buddha talked about how he taught for the sake of the middle group of students that came to him. He compared himself to a doctor treating people: some people the doctor treats die anyway despite the treatment, and some people will recover on their own whether they receive the treatment or not. Those are the two groups that don't really need the treatment, even if they receive it. But it's the middle group, the people who will recover ONLY if they receive the treatment, who really, really REALLY need that doctor. Ditto the people studying with the Buddha: there was the group that wasn't going to achieve any spiritual result no matter how many years they hung out with the monks, and there was the group that was going to achieve enlightenment whether they studied with the master or not. But it was that middle group, the group of people who could attain enlightenment ONLY if they received the Buddha's teaching - THAT was the group of people he really taught for, even though he taught everybody who came to him and asked for teaching. (It's my personal belief, by the way, that the middle group is the largest of the three groups - I think the distribution's like a bell curve.)

Okay, back to Meng's point about the student being more important than the teacher. I think it's true as far as it goes, but that it makes more sense if it's put in the context of the Buddha's story about doctors and spiritual teachers. The student's more important than the teacher? Really? Well, which type of student are we talking about?

meng · Mar 15, 2008

Well, good point. I guess I was talking about the exceptional, perhaps noble student or junzi. The treat in teaching a junzi is the wealth of insight and knowledge the teacher gains.

dobro · Mar 15, 2008

I'm a teacher myself. I agree with you about the student being the more important part of the enterprise - a good student learns no matter how lousy the teacher is. I have experience lol. The thing is, I teach language, and it's possible to learn a language to a great extent without the help of a teacher. You really can acquire a lot of language with books and CDs. But if we're talking inner transformation, developing 'new organs of perception', getting to and stabilising in new states of mind without going off the rails in the process, then I really, really think you need to be working with someone who's been there before you.

meng · Mar 15, 2008

Oh, I agree on the value of a good teacher. But if I understand correctly, we're talking about a comprehensive set of life skills and understanding, not being limited to say math, language or something skill-specific. Hence Martin's mentions of gurus and such. How many college courses major in this sort of thing? Where are reliable teachers to be found but in books and historical works? Well, I'll go with Lindsay's observation: they are found among the common folk, living a small life in a big way.

luz · Mar 15, 2008

maremaria said:
Some people can function in an absence of heart. I’m not one of those people. For me its vital to “fall in love”, “be in love” or just “love” with the thing I engage myself to. Enthusiasm, passion or love do not necessarily diminish, imo, the potential of going deeper than the surface. Masterpieces are creative not only because of the ability but also from the artist passion and *madness*. So being in love with something is not that negative to me… But maybe is what you meant by saying “I think it's a fine line, though” .

I guess that when this “new toy feeling” evaporates and we still “play” with that toy then it is not just the *attraction* that makes us stay there, but a *commitment *

Maria, I didn't mean for one moment to imply that falling in love is a negative thing. Not at all. I actually fell in love with the I ching myself. Falling in love is pretty much the 'new toy' feeling and it of course passes, unless you spend a lifetime asking 100 questions a day, which is still possible, I suppose

. What remains after? I wouldn't really call it 'commitment', that sounds a bit heavy, like the Yi would not like it if I did tarot sometimes

. But I guess it's a relationship, between you and 'it'. And it can be called love. I just don't think it's a kind of reverent love, it's just love. And, how could love prevent you from going deeper with anything? It's the opposite, imo, so I never implied that.

It's just that, to me, going deeper doesn't mean figuring out the exact meaning of the chinese characters, or agonizing over this or that translation, about which one is right. The words are there, the symbols, the pictures Lise has in her website (I forget what they are called) and they all give you hints and they can mean so many things, go in so many different directions and the only reason some answers are more straightforward than others is because they resonate faster, more easily with us and our perception of the issue at hand. And, in this process, it helps a lot to hear what other people think, what they're interpretation is, it gives you more colors to play with, but it's you who has to complete the picture.

As for being a teacher, I think the Yi shows us and teaches us a lot about ourselves and the world , but not so much like a 'guru', more like those every day teachers that Lindsay mentions. They are everybody and everything, pretty much, as long as you are aware that this process of learning from them is going on. I also agree, by the way, that many times the help or insight we need is sometimes not spiritual at all, so a guru won't help you solve that. But the I Ching might

.

How to Learn the Yijing Gig?

Supporter

meng

Guest

Supporter

(deceased)

One of those men your mother warned you about...

visitor

visitor

meng

Guest

(deceased)

One of those men your mother warned you about...

(deceased)

maremaria

Guest

meng

Guest

One of those men your mother warned you about...

visitor

(deceased)

visitor

maremaria

Guest

(deceased)

visitor

visitor

(deceased)

visitor

(deceased)

meng

Guest

visitor

meng

Guest

visitor

meng

Guest

visitor