Eight Reasons NOT To Use The I Ching

superman · Jan 22, 2011

Eight Reasons NOT To Use The I-Ching

1. We're giving our power away (to some unseen forces).

2. We depend on something external to solve all of our problems instead of listening to our soul's input, or do a little detective work ourselves; we sell short our innate problem solving ability.

3. We waste needless energy trying to interpret the meaning.

4. Many times, the readings are wrong or do not work out the way we thought they would.

5. It encourages our pride and ego (ie. we read about the correct behavior for the 'superior man' (note: I mistook my username for something else when I registered)); We become Pharisees.

6. We use it out of fear, or to avoid pain and failure (ie. the I Ching only talkks about how to behave so that we may come out successful and prosper in any particular situation); we discover the stairs (Truth) to the next level only by default of having tried to go through every door down the corridor.

7. We no longer need to train our 'third eye' and develop our intuition because we have the eChing to fulfill this role.

8. Through man's interpretation is the I-Ching is derived, so it gives us a false sense of (self-)confidence and (self-)reassurance when we attempt to use it as a ladder to climb to Heaven (or for spiritual attainment).

diamanda · Jan 22, 2011

I'll add in about these two points only:

superman said:
Eight Reasons NOT To Use The I-Ching

4. Many times, the readings are wrong or do not work out the way we thought they would.

8. It is something man-made, so it gives us a false sense of (self-)confidence that if we follow the suggested behaviors, then we will obtain the outcome for which we have wished.

Yup, it IS totally wrong and totally off for about 40% of the time.
So one does wonder, what the heck IS the point, i might as well have had a wild guess.

Then again, every form of "divination" and "esoteric" is man-made. Even "god".
So, nope, there isn't any point, really, in any of this.
ie, one gets an answer, one does NOT know if the answer is one of the "on the spot"
ones, or one of the "off" ones, so.. one is none the wiser really.

If i had to summarise it, it's just plain good old geeky fun - just a fun thing to do,
taking any of this seriously is, well, absurd, the way i see it. And yet... and
yet there's a lot to be said about the times that it's definitely spot on, and a lot to
be said about the times the I Ching has indeed helped lots of us a great deal, in
many different ways. So, what's the conclusion here? None! Sometimes we need it
sometimes we don't. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Oh well eh!

heylise · Jan 22, 2011

I can only agree with 2 and 3 - sometimes. I disagree totally with all others. I trained my intuition by using the Yi, I never see the superior man as "superior me", but as advice to be the best I can be. 6 doesn't even make sense to me. And I have never used it as a stair to heaven. I don't think anything can serve that end, no scripture, no Yi/I Ching.

Trojina · Jan 22, 2011

diamanda said:
If i had to summarise it, it's just plain good old geeky fun - just a fun thing to do,
taking any of this seriously is, well, absurd, the way i see it. And yet... and
yet there's a lot to be said about the times that it's definitely spot on, and a lot to
be said about the times the I Ching has indeed helped lots of us a great deal, in
many different ways. So, what's the conclusion here? None! Sometimes we need it
sometimes we don't. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Oh well eh!

I'm suprised you say this...but not sure if you are joking ? You really think it is absurd to take the I Ching seriously ? I don't understand why you would spend time on it then.

I don't see it as fun. I really don't. I only consult when I really want some help never for fun. Mainly becasue I guess i find consulation psychically quite taxing. It feels to me like having an intense conversation with someone you really have to listen hard to hear. Its rewarding but in its own way quite taxing

Trojina · Jan 22, 2011

superman said:
Eight Reasons NOT To Use The I-Ching

1. We're giving our power away (to some unseen forces).

2. We depend on something external to solve all of our problems instead of listening to our soul's input, or do a little detective work ourselves; we sell short our innate problem solving ability.

3. We waste needless energy trying to interpret the meaning.

4. Many times, the readings are wrong or do not work out the way we thought they would.

5. It encourages our pride and ego (ie. we read about the correct behavior for the 'superior man' (note: I mistook my username for something else when I registered)); We become Pharisees.

6. We use it out of fear, or to avoid pain and failure (ie. the I Ching only talkks about how to behave so that we may come out successful and prosper in any particular situation); we discover the stairs (Truth) to the next level only by default of having tried to go through every door down the corridor.

7. We no longer need to train our 'third eye' and develop our intuition because we have the eChing to fulfill this role.

8. Through man's interpretation is the I-Ching is derived, so it gives us a false sense of (self-)confidence and (self-)reassurance when we attempt to use it as a ladder to climb to Heaven (or for spiritual attainment).

I think 7 is interesting becasue sometimes, while in the process of casting, something or someone interupts and makes the cast unecessary.

Like last week I was focusing intently on a question, and I did sense a prescence near me, and when that happens when I am casting I have the feeling of 'put that down...you don't need it'. Anyway I continued then I heard loud in my ear "its neither here nor there" as the answer to the question I was putting to the Yi. Whether thats my own mind or another being is up to the individual etc but I did know that was the answer and I didn't need to consult. So I do think we don't always need the Yi bit sometimes it just a compliment to our intuition ansd 3rd eye activity. Using Yi does not mean i switch off my 3rd eye or my intuition. Anyway on that occasion I took the 'answer' on board and continued the cast...which actually reinforced the 'heard' answer anyway

But I have considered we can get a bit too hooked on Yi when as you say we do all have natural intuition and the possibilty to receive guidance form other things than the I Ching...

As for point 1 thats your assumption and a deep misunderstanding of what the Yi is for. It isn't a force to submit to, not in my mind anyway

point 2. the soul may talk via the Yi, it isn't one or the other. again a misunderstanding on your part.

point 3... well we waste energy doing lots of things., its purely a matter of opinion whats a waste of energy. its up to us what we do with our energy

point 4 I feel is of no consequence or not applicable. This idea that Yi tells you what to do and it can be wrong and you will blindly go and do it is your misunderstanding. If an answer went against all other factors I'd go with my own common sense since theres always a possibility of misunderstanding.. If you even think of answers being 'wrong' then it shows you regard Yi as a fortune telling thing which it isn't. So anyone who is disapointed with its 'wrong' answers probably has the wrong idea of what its for. Its not always predicting but reflecting/advising/ revealing the current situation

5. well anything can be said to encourage the ego. thats not the Yis fault is it. Playing football or dancing can encourage the ego doesn't mean people shouldn't play football or dance

6. well you may have a point but I don't think Yi stops us taking unfortunate actions tht may be part of our life learning its just helps

7 already covered

8. are you here on a mission to make us stop consulting the I Ching ? This point isn't a point. All scripture and spiritual teaching is passed via a human agency..how else would we understand it.

Can I ask if you ever consult the I Ching or are you totally against its use ? Do you want everyone else to stop consulting it ?

rosada · Jan 22, 2011

6. "We use it to avoid pain and failure."

Uh, and this is a bad thing because..?

rosada

superman · Jan 22, 2011

rosada said:
6. "We use it to avoid pain and failure."

Uh, and this is a bad thing because..?

rosada

Rudyard Kipling - If

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

--------

rosada · Jan 22, 2011

My Motto is No Pain - No Pain

I hope Superman you're posting this just cause you wants to stir up a little interesting discussion cause if you're seriously opposed to consulting the I Ching as an oracle I think you'll get faster results deabating the Bible with Born Again Christains or Gun Control with the NRA.

In fact, it's kinda interesting reading your list applying these arguments to all sorts of things people turn to for guidance. One could look at it for everything from Eight Reasons NOT to Read The Bible
to Eight Reasons NOT to Read Road Maps to Eight Reasons NOT to Read Period. I guess it just depends on how much of a do it yourselfer one wants to to be in this lifetime.

Oh, I just see you have responded to my former post with a quote from Kipling. Okay, if you mean by this that you believe living life without any outside assistance is your ideal then I can see how you would find studying the I Ching - which I find to be is all about spiritual growth as a result of building group support - to not be your ideal path. Ah well, to each his own.

After looking over the list for a bit it occurs to me that the I Ching provides us with responses to these concerns. For example 4.3 could be the response to reason #1, a clear admonishment that in studying the I Ching one must not give away their power. 3.2 could answer your #2 concern and so forth.

rosada

superman · Jan 22, 2011

rosada said:
I hope Superman you're posting this just cause you wants to stir up a little interesting discussion cause if you're seriously opposed to consulting the I Ching as an oracle I think you'll get faster results deabating the Bible with Born Again Christains or Gun Control with the NRA. In fact, it's kinda interesting reading your list applying these arguments to all sorts of things people turn to for guidance. One could look at it for everything from Eight Reasons NOT to Read The Bible
to Eight Reasons NOT to Read Road Maps to Eight Reasons NOT to Read Period. I guess it just depends on how much of a do it yourselfer one wants to to be in this lifetime.

Oh, I just see you have responded to my former post with a quote from Kipling. Okay, if you mean by this that you believe living life without any outside assistance is your ideal then I can see how you would find studying the I Ching - which I find to be is all about spiritual growth as a result of building group support - to not be your ideal path. Ah well, to each his own.

After looking over the list for a bit it occurs to me that the I Ching provides us with responses to these concerns. For example 4.3 could be the response to reason #1, a clear admonishment that in studying the I Ching one must not give away their power. 3.2 could answer your #2 concern and so forth.

rosada

1. Is that really a 'sin'?

2. We really need to open our eyes if we equate solid, broken, and changing lines with 'spiritual growth'.

rosada · Jan 22, 2011

"WE need to open our eyes"???
How about, "WE need to end this conversation."

Goodbye,
Rosada

anemos · Jan 22, 2011

superman said:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

--------

hex 36 Yijing W/B

Six in the fourth place means:
He penetrates the left side of the belly.
One gets at the very heart of the darkening of the light.

Six at the top means:
Not light but darkness.
First he climbed up to heaven,
Then plunged into the depths of the earth.

superman · Jan 22, 2011

anemos said:
Six at the top means:
Not light but darkness.
First he climbed up to heaven,
Then plunged into the depths of the earth.

So it would appear that humanity's ultimate goal is to be cast into the depths of Hades, after all is said and done??

anemos · Jan 22, 2011

superman said:
So it would appear that humanity's ultimate goal is to be cast into the depths of Hades, after all is said and done??

I'm sure , you already know that this line doesn't say that . no ?

pocossin · Jan 22, 2011

1. We're giving our power away (to some unseen forces).

When we consult a roadmap, are we giving our power away to the roadmap?

2. We depend on something external to solve all of our problems instead of listening to our soul's input, or do a little detective work ourselves; we sell short our innate problem solving ability.

Can the problems usually put to the I Ching be solved by a little detective work? Could you give examples?

3. We waste needless energy trying to interpret the meaning.

Could you give an example of how you have wasted such needless energy? Or, are you reading the minds of others?

4. Many times, the readings are wrong or do not work out the way we thought they would.

Are you speaking of personal examples? Which?

5. It encourages our pride and ego (ie. we read about the correct behavior for the 'superior man' (note: I mistook my username for something else when I registered)); We become Pharisees.

We ought to be proud of good craftsmanship in using the I Ching. Your username is highly symbolic and represents your ideals.

6. We use it out of fear, or to avoid pain and failure (ie. the I Ching only talks about how to behave so that we may come out successful and prosper in any particular situation); we discover the stairs (Truth) to the next level only by default of having tried to go through every door down the corridor.

Are you speaking of yourself?

7. We no longer need to train our 'third eye' and develop our intuition because we have the eChing to fulfill this role.

Would you please explain what you mean by the 'third eye'? If by 'third eye' you mean 'intuition', in my opinion I Ching is an excellent way -- maybe the best -- to develop it.

8. Through man's interpretation is the I-Ching is derived, so it gives us a false sense of (self-)confidence and (self-)reassurance when we attempt to use it as a ladder to climb to Heaven (or for spiritual attainment).

The I Ching is a revelation of the will of Heaven as expressed by sages of reverence and good character. Anyone who approaches it with respect benefits.

bamboo · Jan 23, 2011

I find it so amusing that almost everything in the poem IF is something I have been guided to by my use of the I Ching! It is so interesting that you used that poem, Superman!

most especially has my dialogue with I Ching taught me to treat success and failure the same, both imposters, both part of the ups and downs of life. My gosh, in the times of 23, what better friend to have than the YiJIng. It has never alleviated my pain, but lots of times it helped me to recognize that I am human and not crazy or bad.

and I think Maria's reference to hex 36 is very apt for your poem. it is all about keeping your head when everyone and everything seems against you.

more than anything else, the I ching has helped me to trust myself, and to grow up, and to face myself when I would rather look away, and to appreciate myself when I have wanted to disqualify myself. I cant think of a better spiritual guide.

sooo · Jan 23, 2011

Eight Reasons NOT To Use The I-Ching

1. We're giving our power away (to some unseen forces).

We also receive it from some unseen forces, and using, giving, spending the rest, maybe saving up a little too (h26).

2. We depend on something external to solve all of our problems instead of listening to our soul's input, or do a little detective work ourselves; we sell short our innate problem solving ability.

I think what you say is a possibility if looking for shortcuts, but cognitive 'detective work' is precisely what the Yi assists with best, leaving clues here and there.

But I think one can over use and abuse it, especially if their station in life at the time is to be active and socially involved. Then, it might be the best place for it as well. I believe balance and intent play a strong role, as in any form of inner discipline and practice. But clearly, it's not for everyone, anymore than any other doctrine or dharma is.

3. We waste needless energy trying to interpret the meaning.

I think, again, this is a possibility, but I wouldn't assume it for others. I sometimes reflect to pass the time, as it appears I have some time yet to ask questions and contemplate answers. Some people like crossword puzzles, I like question/answer puzzles. I can't think of a better way to abide then by contemplating symbolic meanings and their appearances in meaningful coincidences. Of course the mind needs rest from that too. But that's also in the book.

4. Many times, the readings are wrong or do not work out the way we thought they would.

If this is so, then you haven't the aptitude or interest for it, and that's fine. No one here is offering Cool Aid to join a cult.

Also, there is no better teacher than our mistakes.

5. It encourages our pride and ego (ie. we read about the correct behavior for the 'superior man' (note: I mistook my username for something else when I registered)); We become Pharisees.

Oh, Amen, brother. That can happen.

6. We use it out of fear, or to avoid pain and failure (ie. the I Ching only talkks about how to behave so that we may come out successful and prosper in any particular situation); we discover the stairs (Truth) to the next level only by default of having tried to go through every door down the corridor.

Interesting comment.

7. We no longer need to train our 'third eye' and develop our intuition because we have the eChing to fulfill this role.

This I find completely contrary to my experience. If anything, it discovers an appetite for curiosity and develops cognitive abilities and sharpens intuition and listening skills. One of the reasons I use it these days is to help keep my aging brain limber through cognitive reasoning. Even if it serves no other purpose at times, it keeps my wheels turning and my mind open to possibilities. Maybe that's not what you refer to as the third eye, but I'm not a believer in hokes-pokes. I believe things have reasons. Some, many actually, are either so small or so large that we can't see them. Some of them are right in front of our noses and we still can't see them. "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'Here it is' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it." Gos of Thomas 113

But, I believe your statement is true for shortcut seekers.

8. Through man's interpretation is the I-Ching is derived, so it gives us a false sense of (self-)confidence and (self-)reassurance when we attempt to use it as a ladder to climb to Heaven (or for spiritual attainment).

If one relies solely on ANY words written in stone, even if in ones own mind, a false sense of confidence - which can be so excessive as to include cases of megalomania - is a possible unfortunate outcome. Even when the premise is grace, there's still the "I have it, you don't" tape that could be playing in the background of the falsely assured ones mind.

anemos · Jan 23, 2011

bamboo said:
I find it so amusing that almost everything in the poem IF is something I have been guided to by my use of the I Ching! It is so interesting that you used that poem, Superman!

.

indeed. I could see too many lines of Yi at this poem
isn't that "If you can wait and not be tired by waiting," reminds of hex 5?

anemos · Jan 23, 2011

superman said:
1. Is that really a 'sin'?

2. We really need to open our eyes if we equate solid, broken, and changing lines with 'spiritual growth'.

Superman, how you define "sin" and "spiritual growth" ?

anemos · Jan 23, 2011

sooo said:
8. Through man's interpretation is the I-Ching is derived, so it gives us a false sense of (self-)confidence and (self-)reassurance when we attempt to use it as a ladder to climb to Heaven (or for spiritual attainment).

If one relies solely on ANY words written in stone, even if in ones own mind, a false sense of confidence - which can be so excessive as to include cases of megalomania - is a possible unfortunate outcome. Even when the premise is grace, there's still the "I have it, you don't" tape that could be playing in the background of the falsely assured ones mind.

this reminds me of the story

A university professor visited Zen master Nan-in to
inquire about Zen. But instead of listening to the master,
the scholar kept going on and on about his own ideas.
After listening for some time, Nan-in served tea. He
poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring. The
tea flowed over the sides of the cup, filled the saucer,
spilled onto the man’s pants and onto the floor.
“Don’t you see that the cup is full?” the professor
exploded. “You can’t get any more in!”
“Just so,” replied Nan-in calmly. “And like this cup, you
are full of your own ideas and opinions. How can I show
you Zen unless you first empty your cup?”

rodaki · Jan 23, 2011

I find it great that some people here went into the trouble of answering superman's claims one for one . . . and in such different ways too. I'm wondering how is that different from discussing possible meanings of a reading (wasting time and energy on them?) or various solutions to our problems aside the IChing . .

I also find great that superman posted these and I think if he can examine his self thru them he'll find his own issues, fears and anxieties as these are reflected in the concerns and issues he brings up. And that's similar to how I see the IChing working, as a tool or object that provides the trigger for thoughts to unravel or weaknesses to get revealed.

Similar to any other tool, its effects begin in its specific attributes, but end in the results we yield thru our use of them -with the extra feat that the results in this case are only temporary impressions, hence their power of 'right' or 'wrong' constantly recedes in the horizon of our present . . In a similar fashion we all own mirrors but that doesn't necessarily make us vain or dependent on our looks . .

Anyways, the abyss that stops us from any kind of growth, 'spiritual' or other, it is within. That's what most people look at in using things like the IChing. You don't have to do so yourself but that doesn't give you the right to come here and try to preach those who do.

I think responsibility and self-awareness are nice things to cultivate, IChinging or not . .
:bows:

RindaR · Jan 23, 2011

I tell my skeptical husband that the Yi/I Ching helps me to think about things.

sooo · Jan 23, 2011

rinda said:
I tell my skeptical husband that the Yi/I Ching helps me to think about things.

Simply elegant kitchen wisdom. :bows:

sooo · Jan 23, 2011

6. We use it out of fear, or to avoid pain and failure (ie. the I Ching only talkks about how to behave so that we may come out successful and prosper in any particular situation); we discover the stairs (Truth) to the next level only by default of having tried to go through every door down the corridor.

Interesting comment.

Wanted to get back to this. First, the underlined is to me a fascinating way to mine for the objective truth or lesson in any particular situation. Better known as the process of elimination. I believe the Yijing's answers are more direct than that. A round about answer wouldn't seem a timely solution during some kind of emotional tailspin, for example.

But, about the potential for dependency, and/or fear, I think you are right again, but no more so than the fear of falling short of salvation, or being left a broken clay pot clinging to a rope.

superman · Jan 23, 2011

"Luke put that [torpedo guidance system = I-Ching] away... Use the force!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2we_B6hDrY&feature=related

sooo said:
Wanted to get back to this. First, the underlined is to me a fascinating way to mine for the objective truth or lesson in any particular situation. Better known as the process of elimination. I believe the Yijing's answers are more direct than that. A round about answer wouldn't seem a timely solution during some kind of emotional tailspin, for example.

But, about the potential for dependency, and/or fear, I think you are right again, but no more so than the fear of falling short of salvation, or being left a broken clay pot clinging to a rope.

gaelena1 · Jan 24, 2011

What really matters is what happens in us, not to us.

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." Albert Einstein

We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away.
Chuang Tzu

superman · Jan 24, 2011

Excellent. I was hoping someone would come out and say that. Here's looking at you!

gaelena1 said:
What really matters is what happens in us, not to us.

The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." Albert Einstein

We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away.
Chuang Tzu

sooo · Jan 24, 2011

superman said:
"Luke put that [torpedo guidance system = I-Ching] away... Use the force!"

Psycho-cybernetics is the efficient mastering of small or minute mental course corrections, and is an integral function of the force. No one benefits from a spiritual loose cannon.

superman · Jan 24, 2011

Oh, absolutely! Perhaps we should designate a special day of the year to I-Ching awareness, or something of that sort.

sooo said:
Psycho-cybernetics is the efficient mastering of small or minute mental course corrections, and is an integral function of the force. No one benefits from a spiritual loose cannon.

anemos · Jan 24, 2011

"religion is poison"

sooo · Jan 24, 2011

anemos said:
"religion is poison"

This scene from Seven Years in Tibet demonstrates a significant difference in intent, from when the Lama symbolically 'dissolves' creation, signifying the impermanence of all things. In this scene, there is cynical disdain for the image of creative universal order, in favor of a different and dogmatic ideology of Communism, which has also been a kind of religion itself, requiring an absolute buy-in to be saved from its own rules.

Eight Reasons NOT To Use The I Ching

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