A question, shortly:
I've been searching for the original meaning of so many of the pictures in I Ching, to example the old hexagramtags given in Richard Rutt's work on the ancient Zhouyi like elephant hex 16, oriole hex 30, pig hex 33 - and within the Judgement, Pictures and lines of the hexagrams, like 'a crying pheasant' hex 36, baseline and so on...

On the internet I've searched on words like 'chinese symbols', chinese myth'....

In chinese astrology some of the symbolic animals is to be found, like rat, pig, ox.... and I suppose that these caracteristic of those animals reaches far back in time; like to an example the astrological pig points toward wealth....

Not to unterstand the meaning behind these pictures as it originally was meant is to be unable to fully unterstand what the I Ching is saying....

And as these symbolic language was formed thousands of years ago much of it is probably lost, I guess (?). At that time taken to be implicit when using a picture to say something, today we have to guess its meaning - said in other words: "Over the hill"; today I don't have to explain what I mean when saying those words about myself, age 61, but maybe if someone read this sentense in a thousand years from now they will probably look at 'Hill' as the concrete mountain....

So: does anyone know where to find information about the ancient/original meaning behind the chinese pictorial symbolism ?

You can try googling more detailed searches (also try using 'chinese sayings with . . .' and usually the people who bring up the various symbols in the hexagrams, also make some reference to their meanings . . Both these forums and private websites can be very useful with that . . For example, I just googled 'oriole symbol ancient chinese' and I came up with this:


http://www.sibagu.com/notes/orioles.html

it's a trial and error thing . . Meanings often arise organically, thru your own use of Yi as well - not everything has to go back to some imagined 'original'

svenrus said:

In Chinese astrology some of the symbolic animals are to be found, like rat, pig, ox.... and I suppose that these characteristic of those animals reaches far back in time; like to an example the astrological pig points toward wealth....

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I agree with your supposition that there is an unbroken continuity of Chinese culture. The astrological pig may now point toward wealth, but in King Wen's time associations were different. Pigs dig holes. Thus, the zodiacal pig is the correlative of hexagram 29 The Pit, associated with death and burial.

svenrus said:

So: does anyone know where to find information about the ancient/original meaning behind the chinese pictorial symbolism ?

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These two works are mostly dated but still good:

Outlines of Chinese Symbolism & Art Motives, C.A.S. Williams

A history of the religious beliefs and philosophical opinions in China from the beginning to the present time, Wieger

Some Chinese Symbols and Art Motifs in alphabetical order:

http://www.chinesepaintings.com/chinese-symbols.html

Another source, maybe the same list:



http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/62Arts11141.html

Ch.

svenrus said:

Not to unterstand the meaning behind these pictures as it originally was meant is to be unable to fully unterstand what the I Ching is saying....

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You are equally likely to be distracted by anachronistic and popular symbolism.

I have read a book written by a German Author, he calls: Georg Zimmermann and his book calls: I Ching for Masters. He explains all Animals, Symbols and Parts of the Human Body which are mentioned in the I Ching but I really don`t know if this book has ever been translated into english.

I could try to translate for you, but only in short Maybe I can edit this post from time to time and add something.

Animals

Horse:
The most mentioned animals are Horse and cattle. First you have to find out if it is a female horse, because that would be yin and means to be receptive and to be smooth/soft. Is it a stallion it means yang, action, rapidity and strength. Also the colours and shape of the horses have a meaning, but maybe I write this later.

Examples:
Hexagram 2 The judge:
THE RECEPTIVE brings about sublime success,
Furthering through the perseverance of a mare.

Here it is a female horse/mare. It is easy to understand what this means in this context. Meant is: To be patiently, receptive, soft, let yourself lead, don`t act just follow with abandonment.

Another Example:
Hexagram 59 line 1:
Six at the beginning means:
He brings help with the strength of a horse.
Good fortune.

At the commentaries (3rd book) it is explained. The horse is the second line, means a friend. The first line need the help of the second line (the strong horse with the beautiful back) for to clear a conflict already in the beginning. First line = beginning of the situation. So the first line is follow the second line (the horse) which helps to avoid the DISPERSION. Because the second line is a strong horse it is yang and so it is fast too. Could be a good friend who is helping you very quickly to clear up missunderstandings or conflicts and you should listen to him.

Cattle/Cow:
Is mainly yin and so it is assigned to 2. Ku`n - The Receptive. It helps at work and it is hard to scare, not as nervous as the horse, it is also inactive, patiently and means modesty. This is especially meant at the cow (female cattle?).

Example:
Hexagram 56. line 6
Nine at the top means:
The bird's nest burns up.
The wanderer laughs at first,
Then must needs lament and weep.
Through carelessness he loses his cow.
Misfortune.

He loses his cow means: He loses his ability to be modesty and his ability to adapt. He is much too HIGH (6th line go to far here, outside the situation)the "cow" is the 5th line in the middle of the upper trigram: Li which is always Earth/Ku`n.

He is arrogant, careless and forget the basics (the cow) which help him to till the field of life: To be patiently, politely and modesty especially if you are a WANDERER

Goat/Sheep:
That`s a bit tricky because the Sheep is assigned to Tui. It is self contentet, resistent, and let himself lead. But the Goat is stubborn and hard. Good example is:

Hexagram 34 line 5:
Six in the fifth place means:
Loses the goat with ease.
No remorse.
The goat is noted for hardness outwardly and weakness within. Now the situation is such that everything is easy; there is no more resistance. One can give up a belligerent, stubborn way of acting and will not have to regret it.

No need to explain something, because that is quite clear

Tiger:
Is strong, yang, meaningfully, something special, he sees everything, he is mighty and not really kind in this way that you can pet it. He is SOMEONE, a Pesonality. wonderful described at Hexagram 10 as a person who is in a higher position (the Tiger) and you are the one who is trying to get to the same level (be the equal of him) as this person, but without getting in conflict with this person so your treading is very, very important in this case.

Example:
Hexagram 10. Line 3
Six in the third place means:
A one-eyed man is able to see,
A lame man is able to tread.
He treads on the tail of the tiger.
The tiger bites the man.
Misfortune.
Thus does a warrior act on behalf of his great prince.


Okay this should not happen. It is important to tread on the tail of the tiger, because you want something from him. But you should know what you do, you have to be into the right condition if you do something dangerous like that (tread on the tiger`s tail) because he might could bite.

So the third line go too far and/or is not into the right condition. He doesn`t see the whole thing (just one eye) and he is not able to walk (lame) it is just enough for to tread on the tiger`s tail but the tiger becomes angry because of this careless action and he bites.

Hamster:
It is only mentioned at 35. line 4.
It is a symbol for someone who is able to do almost all but nothing right or perfect. So it is a symbol for someone who don`t know what to do because everything he does
turn`s out bad or wrong.

Example:
Hexagram 35. Line 4
Nine in the fourth place means:
Progress like a hamster.
Perseverance brings danger.
In times of progress it is easy for strong men in the wrong places to amass great possessions. But
such conduct shuns the light. And since times of progress are also always times in which dubious
procedures are inevitably brought to light, perseverance in such action always leads to danger.

Progress like a hamster means in that case, to be disable to make progress in the right way.

Dragon:
It is the final Product of Developement. Positive as Dragon of Heaven: Yang, Ch`ien, the creative, being a very good and wise person and the opposite negative as Dragon of Earth mentioned at Hexagram 2 at the 6th line.

If you like to understand what the Dragon means just look at Hexagram 1. There you can see the single stages of positive Developement. The 5th line is the accomplished Dragon, the acting Dragon. A person who is able to lead others, to unite others. If you look at line 6 you see: This one also go too far (6th line = outside), it describes someone who became arrogant because of his well developement. He loses contact to others who are not on his level and his behavior is hard, intolerant, offish and so he doesn`t find the right way to others and that means that he will has to regret in the end.

I think that`s enough for one day

I will go on next days with the parts of the human body etc.

To be continued..............

Cheers Yvonne

This is an annotated entry from our comprehensive Yixue Bibliography

Eberhard, Wolfram. A Dictionary of Chinese Symbols: Hidden Symbols in Chinese Life and Thought. NY: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1986.

(RS- An extremely valuable reference work. Students should keep in mind, however, that the meanings of Chinese symbols have often changed over time. Thus, the symbols of the 'original' basic text of the Changes may have had connotations that were significantly different than those that attached to them in later periods)
(BH- Seconding Rich, including the cautionary note)

bradford said:

(RS- An extremely valuable reference work. Students should keep in mind, however, that the meanings of Chinese symbols have often changed over time. Thus, the symbols of the 'original' basic text of the Changes may have had connotations that were significantly different than those that attached to them in later periods)
(BH- Seconding Rich, including the cautionary note)

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Many thanks, this book you recommended is in german language, means: I can easily read and understand it By the way: Georg Zimmermann said the same about the changing of meaning during the periods and he also explained some of this changes, but probably not all.

Hi, all:


A little sample of W. Eberhardt

Water​

Shui
水

Water is one of the five elements or ‘permutations’; it is associated with the North and with the colour black, and also with the moon which causes the dew to fall at night. Water also symbolises yin, the primeval female principle, the counterpart of yang, the male principle which is the element of fire and of the South.

In the old Chinese cosmology, fire and water arise from the ‘Great One’ (Tai-ji): ‘water moistens and strives downward, fire blazes and strives upward’ (Section 1 of the Hong-fan).

From the sexual union of these two principles the five elements arise, and these engender the ten thousand things. Thus, water belongs to night as fire to day; sexual activity appertains to the first part of the night, and many expressions denoting sexual intercourse have to do with water.

...

WOLFRAM EBERHARD
A Dictionary of Chinese Symbols [page 386]

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It follows a story that I''ve preferred no to transcribe, but that's another story.

Yours,

Charly

Thanks Charly.

And this is an example of what I meant by anachronism, and why these associations should be used cautiously if you're trying to use them to interpret the Zhouyi. The five "elements" did not really exist as such when the Zhouyi was written. They came along several centuries later (Yin and Yang weren't part of the thinking then either). At that time Shui was part of the "Six Treasuries" instead, and Yin simply meant Shade. The Yi has its own water symbols, the Ba Gua of Kan and Dui, each with its own articulated meaning and differently nuanced than Shui.

forty two said:

Many thanks, this book you recommended is in german language, means: I can easily read and understand it By the way: Georg Zimmermann said the same about the changing of meaning during the periods and he also explained some of this changes, but probably not all.

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Hi Ivonne:

Don't worry for historic changes. Human nature remains the same.

If we are interested in history, must check meanings with the available sources, maybe 80% of written sources have disappeared from chinese history.

But if we are intrested in the use of the Changes itself, it's a book for all the times and places, intendedly fuzy and polysemic. All the meanings are valid for practice. I'm convinced that the changes speaks to each in the language that each can understand, with the intellectual level that each has aquired, with the metaphors and symbols to which each has access.

all the best,

Charly

charly said:

Hi, all:


A little sample of W. Eberhardt




It follows a story that I''ve preferred no to transcribe, but that's another story.

Yours,

Charly

Click to expand...

I haven't read the whole book, Chinese symbolism' by W. Eberhard; just lended it today and looking in it for some symbols found almost that it's of the same kind of information (roughly) to be found in 'Chinese symbolism and art motifs' by C.S.A. Williams. Not specially adressed to the study of I Ching; but as a dictionary for common clarifying well OK. Neither in Eberhards nor Williams have I found any help in the understanding of the symbolic "Horns" (Hex 44, nine top)....

@svenrus: The horns at 44.6 means that this person behave rough, tough, like the goat. He is not friendly, he doesn`t communicate with the "mean/weak", although he should because this is the challenge of this hexagramm: To meet the dark principle (line 1), but to meet it in a SAVE way (line 2 and/or 5), because it is dangerous.

Means: To meet it with care and a bit distance. But the DISTANCE is way to far at 6. It is just without blame because: It is the decision of 6 and he has the right to decide. But it is all in all really not very kind and also not very constructive.

Good opportunity to tell you all: I will go on with the parts of the human body as soon as possible. At the moment I haven`t got enough time for this long text, I would have to write there, but I don`t have forgotten it

best wishes Yvonne

svenrus said:

help in the understanding of the symbolic "Horns" (Hex 44, nine top)....

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44.6
Nine at the top means:
He comes to meet with his horns.
Humiliation. No blame.

Horns are weapons. The line suggests that one should not be unduly defensive. Don't respond too sharply or you may need to say, I'm sorry. How such a line is to be applied varies with context. If you are trying to fix something, beware using destructive force. If you are concerned with security, keep things locked up but don't set traps.

charly said:

Hi Ivonne:

Don't worry for historic changes. Human nature remains the same.

If we are interested in history, must check meanings with the available sources, maybe 80% of written sources have disappeared from chinese history.

But if we are intrested in the use of the Changes itself, it's a book for all the times and places, intendedly fuzy and polysemic. All the meanings are valid for practice. I'm convinced that the changes speaks to each in the language that each can understand, with the intellectual level that each has aquired, with the metaphors and symbols to which each has access.

all the best,

Charly

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Ooops, sorry didn`t recognize this post before. Well said If one changes the hexagramms and lines by himself he/she will SEE what they mean (for him/her), by time.

@pocossin: Yep, horns are weapons and so it hurts to be ignored or to be treaten unfriendly Also a mean/weak has feelings. But I really wish to say: This is not a recommendation (what is written at line 6) This is just a description about a state of mind. This line is just without blame. There is not one word about fortune.

bradford said:

Thanks Charly.

And this is an example of what I meant by anachronism, and why these associations should be used cautiously if you're trying to use them to interpret the Zhouyi. The five "elements" did not really exist as such when the Zhouyi was written. They came along several centuries later (Yin and Yang weren't part of the thinking then either). At that time Shui was part of the "Six Treasuries" instead, and Yin simply meant Shade. The Yi has its own water symbols, the Ba Gua of Kan and Dui, each with its own articulated meaning and differently nuanced than Shui.

Click to expand...

Hi, Brad:

Of course, Brad, the changes bears many later developments, but maybe it is the condition to remain alive. Say: to develop or die.

YIN / YANG abstrract theory didn't exist in the times when the YI was written, but what about the SEXUAL INTERCOURSE OF HEAVEN AND EARTH from which all the beings came?

I believe that's pretty ancient and compliant with the animistic feeling that all things are living beings. Mounts and waters were not seen as mere rocks and H2O but having a life and a spirit.

By consequence they need parents that engendered them. And those parents, being divinities, must have been engaged in continuous sexual intercouse.

Maybe the lines were seen not as yin and yang but as FEMALE / BENT (^) and MALE / UPRIGHT.

Remember that the character used anciently for DIVINATION depicted a BRANCHED STALK (♂) over a SACRED VESSEL (♀) WITH LONG OPEN LEGS:


A clear hidden allusion to ... the carpenter's tools held by Nü Wa and Fu Xi, a compass and a square. Compas = open legs, square = upright (the sprouting stalk).

Curiously in Shang's bnoe script there was only the vessel, but in Zhou bronze script the branched stalk was added.

All the best,


Charly

forty two said:

...
@pocossin: Yep, horns are weapons ...

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That makes me remember of something said by Wu Jing Nuan, but don't ask me what!

Charly

pocossin said:

44.6
Nine at the top means:
He comes to meet with his horns.
Humiliation. No blame.

Horns are weapons. The line suggests that one should not be unduly defensive. Don't respond too sharply or you may need to say, I'm sorry. How such a line is to be applied varies with context. If you are trying to fix something, beware using destructive force. If you are concerned with security, keep things locked up but don't set traps.

Click to expand...

.... and Horns are also used by some animals as a sexual signal as for the males to draw the females attention, hope I've understood it right from my early schoolages... But ! that notation is maybe to fly the matter of this subject. I thank for the advises given to my quistion at all.

Horns´, in Eberhard's dictionary

svenrus said:

I haven't read the whole book, Chinese symbolism' by W. Eberhard; just lended it today and looking in it for some symbols found almost that it's of the same kind of information (roughly) to be found in 'Chinese symbolism and art motifs' by C.S.A. Williams. Not specially adressed to the study of I Ching; but as a dictionary for common clarifying well OK. Neither in Eberhards nor Williams have I found any help in the understanding of the symbolic "Horns" (Hex 44, nine top)....

Click to expand...

Actually I found - not Horn specific but - Horns in Eberhard's dictionary but that was when I looked at 'Eight' that I was directed to 'Rhinoceros' where it says: "...... the Horn was also popularly supposed to have the property of identifying poison in a liquid." ie, the horns of the rhinoceros....
So I guess I'll have to look a little closer in this dictionary.

forty two said:

@svenrus: The horns at 44.6 means that this person behave rough, tough, like the goat. He is not friendly, he doesn`t communicate with the "mean/weak", although he should because this is the challenge of this hexagramm: To meet the dark principle (line 1), but to meet it in a SAVE way (line 2 and/or 5), because it is dangerous.

Means: To meet it with care and a bit distance. But the DISTANCE is way to far at 6. It is just without blame because: It is the decision of 6 and he has the right to decide. But it is all in all really not very kind and also not very constructive.

Good opportunity to tell you all: I will go on with the parts of the human body as soon as possible. At the moment I haven`t got enough time for this long text, I would have to write there, but I don`t have forgotten it

best wishes Yvonne

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Forty two:
In business promising is a must. Concerning this subject ? I don't know. What I would remind You about was just like to say: 'Don't tie Yourself up on this promise'
Promise ?

"Meeting whith their horns..." hex 44.6 (The Miao-tribe from the Hunanprovince Pictures)