Inspired by Anonymous in "Return?", I asked the Yi about my behaviour towards my collegue in the question: "how do I get my selve-esteem and trust back in the case with X and my trustworthyness towards her and others as I keep on approaching her by mail (even in my holiday now, and yes, she responded a couple of times) where my behaviour is sometimes like a child or so, without wanting more distance and even more room for maturity and growth?" (wow, what a question :-D)

The Respons was 23.6... What kind of fruit must that be :-D? In a former mail much earlier I have been reading about a technique of Karcher (where I only in coincidence write a lot about these days) that 23.6 has an outcome in 24.1,,, Like odd numbers tells things from your inside, and even numbers tells you something from the outside...23 gets his manifestation in 24, like 1 in 2, 55 in 56, etc... Where 23 changes in 2 as it is for the inside, I can tell that the Yi means here that I should just let my mind set of things, let the fruits fall, and let the initiative to someone else... (23.6 leats to 2...). As for 24.1 as a manifestation it confirms that I should be looking inside me, stay calm, let regret vanish and all will go just well. I'm realy a controlfreak and this is somuch of a great lesson for me...let things go...not go like 'giving up', but, 'have a break will ya :-D?'

I'm wandering what you make of this. Input most welcome.

Regards,
Frank

Anyone?

Um, Frank, what did the question mean? I know you knew and Yi knew, but...
Was it along the lines of 'How can I be less like a lovestruck teenager?'?
Actually, was the gist of it really, 'How can I get to 24,1?'?

I tend to take 23,6 as quite a fierce injunction really to pick myself up and MOVE, not just rearrange the furniture again - at least, if I'm really interested in changing. Get some clear and open ground for the seed to germinate.

A cart can be a big image of yourself or your situation that 'carries' you to new places.

Any use??

Hi Hillary,

I guess you are right about the teenager stuff.
I know I have to let things go, and still are very stuborn in that, looking around for new chances. But the longer I cling to this woman the more energy it's going to take me, and for what...? Deep down I realy think there is sympathy between us, as the past has already proven that, but that's something else then 'love', as not even give her a break and some rest for some weeks or so is not loving and care-ing towards her. It's still trying to get what you want what is not there. I realy feel myself good about it to put somuch energy in this, while I already lost about 6 or 7 kilo's in weight for the past few months.. (has to do with other stress-factors in my life as well) I realy wanted this to go OK so badly that I did not keep myself busy with other things, like my own health and my own borders...

I tell you a little background:
The first time she told me she started to wander if I liked here 'to much' I explained in all honesty that I could have 'used' her to stay at my job as I was afraid of moving... and that I realy have a bad habit in clinging to people often in phases... I'm a guy who wants atention, and she gave me that... so I clinged on to that...
I also told here that in all honesty I did not know if that was something I did for the sake of loving her.... She felt comfortable with that answer and I got a good feeling about it to let her go easy as I knew now it was the other stuff and not the love thing...

We kept on meeting each other. Even more and more, and after a while she started to trust me more and I trusted her, and we told each other things you normaly share with very good friends. She told me also that she already had a relationship for 5 years with a guy she loves very much, and the bond was tighted like hell... so then I thought, ok...Be a collegue for her, and that's it... But the more she came, because she trusted me, and I was realy trying to stay as pure towards her as I could be, the more I started to love her for who she was (and still is). She realy is a wonderfull person, and of all people she picked me as a friend / collegue...my ego went almost straight trough the roof (grin). (My self-esteem is not that high)
But she had a boyfriend and I had feelings which would not be answered... Ofcourse I asked the Yi about all this from day 1 and the very first answer I got was something like "Don't hold your breath, be carefull, and have patience"... So I did...

Then we started to mail and talk more and more, and we became as close as collegues can be as you are when you are more then just collegues, and yes I had a crush, a teenage crush... not even the sexual part yet, but just walking hand in hand, and other 'silly' thoughts... But she has a boyfriend Frank, a voice was telling me... yeah yeah said another part of me...

Within our jobs we have the opportunity to go to seminars and workshops and at one of them she came back all happy and opening up more and more, she was really smiling every time she saw me.. O boy... It was a course in 'Awareness', and she became aware that the relationship she was in was to serious for her and she stept out of it... The devil inside me became glad, but what a terrible thing to think that... She came to me for comphort, and man was I happy about that... I realy tried to put away the feelings I had for her and started to become a 'mate' for her... One day we had arranged a drinking-date after work and I was realy looking forward on that when she came in crying... She had a terrible weekend and was not in the mood for a drinking-date what so ever... I was not that amuzed about that ofcourse, but I even took her outside and we talked for about a half an hour and you saw her glow again, she started to get to breath again.,.. I even cryed with her... I felt her pain... She told me later I would be a hell of a social worker or something in that matter,,, And that I am so god damn loyal... Yes, I'm... even if it costs me my own health...

Some weeks later we had that drinking-date finaly, and I told her that for the sake of being the mate for her as I was then and to keep myself pure I had to tell her my feelings for her, who now where realy because of her (including the sexual desires). She liked it very much that I told her that so that we could stay honestly towards each other, and she told me that she liked me realy very much, but not in a 'lover' way... She actually started to talk about another person she felt in love with and on a certain moment in her story I was letting her know that I became silent... That story did hurt me much, and then the thing about my feelings for her came out... Untill this day she did not tell anything anymore about this guy, as she knew it would hurt me.

Some other hapenings came along, and I was keeping myself in the teenager-crush mode, as together we bought me a new pair of glasses... (of all things :-D...)

She started to become more interested in spirituality, as she came back from that awarenesstraining, and started to read books I loaned her... Every litle thing was seen by me as a signal for the fact that we could be together for ever...but not yet...or something in that matter...

I also went for the awareness training and she was very curious and happy about it, and we had a second drinking date... and again my crush came along...She told me that she was no longer in love with the other guy, but was hoping to get back to her old flame between now and next summer... I felt myself comphortable with the idea that she at least was loyal, and I thougbt it was no longer a problem to me to see her as a friend and nothing more then that...

But the days after that she started to step back, and I told her I was trying to keep some distance towards her, for I needed some space to get rit of the crush... She told me again that in friendship we still could go on drinking dates and stuff, but then the feelings must go,,, otherwise she can't speak to me in 'equal' terms.

The last two weeks I had a slight easyness in letting her go a little bit, as I was home from a holiday. I did not go away, I stayed home and thought I could rest...

I mailed her from home... She mailed back, I mailed again, she mailed back, I mailed again, and she became silent now.....

Something has changed, and it all have to do with me, my acting, my so damn hard difficulty in letting her go out of my head as a lover, and in as a friend who I date once a month after work... (what's so god damn difficult about that...? Easy to tell others, but so damn hard for yourself.)

I don't want to be obsessed like this, a mailstalker or anything for that matter, as I'm a decent guy, but in some bizare way I just can't let her go, and the longer I stay the way I'm right now, the more she moves on... I realy, realy, realy want to stay friends, and let faith take over, instead of my control... So 23.6 told me that the fruit has to fall now... I was just reading about 24.1 as an example but that made my request a bit vague... I know...

By reading your intro on this site about asking questions and reading an example like "where does this relationship go from here, and what can I do to keep it alive?", I asked the Yi the same thing about my situation, and I got 59, lines 1 & 2...
I realy need to do something about this quick otherwise I will loose her as a friend too, and that is something I can't forgive myself...

As the whole thing started to use her as an excuse not to move from my job in the first place, could you say that the 'MOVE' has something to do with that? Or does it mean that I have to realy make a move and not talk about it any day longer... Stay where I'm, but move on in other things and let her take over the initiative? Not mailing her any longer?

I feel so stupid being not capable of dealing with this as an adult... How bizare, but I realy feel for this woman, but it starts to become frightend, for me as for her... I'm a normal, descend guy, and I realy want to fix this (while I still hope she will be in my neighbourhood in 5 years from now)...

Is 59, lines 1 & 2 telling me how to deal with that, because I do not see it anymore,,,?

I promised myself not to mail her for a while, not to talk to her for a while unless she starts, although I realy want to mail and talk, like normal human beings do... but this is getting out of my control, and I REALY do not want that to happen...

How a normal guy can panic about a teen-age crush...

Is it becoming that bad?

Help :-D!
Frank

Hi Frank,

23.6 could mean in this case that she is like a mirror that reflects something that exists in yourself.
What you see in her - or feel when you are near her - is your own essence.
That is the "great fruit that has not been eaten".
I think the Yi advices you to concentrate on the reflection and not only on the mirror.

Hi Martin,

Thank you very much for responding. 23.6 a mirror? Hey, I have not looked at that in that matter, but yes we all are mirrors for each other... She deffinitly has things insite and outsite herself which is reflecting my own habbits, characteristics and challenges, that's for sure.

I realise I was a bit in a panic yesterday as we probably all are sometimes when we are in some kind of 'mourning-proces' for letting things go and want to keep things the way they are... But 23 is like nature that calls because it's nature... Not because she or I did something to let that happen... That's the confucion I have... I blame myself for it, but at the other hand, I keep being who I'm, and that can never be a bad thing :-D... In every relationship you have days where you talk a lot, visit each other a lot and find yourself abselutly comphortable with each other, which we realy did... and there are days that you have to move on with the things you have learned in the times you went closer... Now it's time to let it be a bit of responsibility of nature itself... She knows how I feel about her, and I know what she feels, so we have to search for a new way of acting towards each other.,, To me that is like 23.6. The Ripe Fruit within me is not eaten yet, I have something inside me that has to be on the move (my self-esteem, remember?), and that is making me 'me'...and the reason she came to me in the first place, so why not stick to that...? The little fellow making his home like is like me keeping myself busy with the things that went on and what I want to keep and restore, etc... I do not have to restore! I only have to become aware, and let myself lead a bit by nature... (towards H-2).
Can you all agree with that :-D?

As for 59.1.2 I'm not sure again... How does this relationship develop in the future and how can I keep it ALIVE...?,,,well 59 means at least that things are on a break... and there came the panic from yesterday :-D... It's the wind over the water, vaporising waterdrops... I'm confuced, still about the past and the things we did, and the crush I had in respons, and the big wish of being someone in her life... Well, I can still be someone, but NOT in the matter I behave right now, as I'm clinging to much... so 59 could mean that I should cling less... Not getting out of there, but just cling less... Let her take the initiative again... Be one of 'them' (one of the waterdrops) instead of the ocean... as someone ones said "I'm a waterdrop on the way to become an ocean",... yes, but not with this speed... :-D. Cool down a bit... As in line 1 is standing a strong horse there has to be some strong willpower to put in on a break now, And even in line 2 I'm 'hurrying towards my machine" (Wu 1991), so there's a bit of a hurry in it to slow down... Then 42 arises... Nowhere is standing that she will not be there... It's all about feeling better about myself, as I used this connection with her to feel better about nyself... and the Yi is telling me that I only need myself for doing that... That's not her job to do... I have to feel good about myself by myself FIRST... (42)

There still must be the trust that she will be around...:-D...

Does this make some sence?

Hugs to you all, and thanks again Martin,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Back to 23.6. It talks about a large fruit that is not eaten. Junzi get's a carriage, small man destroys his house.

The character for 'large' has the component 'stone', which might imply that the fruit not only is large, but also hard. Large fruit isn't always the best fruit - cherry tomatoes are the best! It looks nice, it looks LARGE, but it is not good to eat.

That is the situation. But if you act like a junzi (whatever that means to you), you will find the means to carry on. If, however, you act like a small man, you will destroy your own house (probably a symbol for your Self): acting like that will leave you miserable and with nothing left. Take a grip and act like your junzi would do.

Best,

Harmen.

Yes, Frank, it makes sense, despite the language barrier. (Maybe I should just move out and let you 3 continue in Dutch? What is it with Holland and Yi, anyway??)

Thanks, Harmen, for the bit about the large stone in the fruit. I don't suppose you do want to eat this one - it's for planting, isn't it? Hmm... one of the dangers 23 alerts me to is that I may be planning and making resolutions, but because I have not cleared out a bunch of old stuff, I am actually just about to do the same thing all over again. Could that be what happens to the small man who doesn't think of getting a cart?

Your other reading...
59 'undefines' everything so 60 will be able to give it a true articulation. Letting all definitions of what you are to each other dissolve (or get cleared out by the turbulent melt-waters, either would do...) so that things can find their own direction - and especially so that you can find yours. A matter of getting the king (taker of decisions) into the temple and in communion with something higher.

I've an idea that the horse's strength to rescue is your own strength, the same energy behind the floodwaters. And line 2 speaks of seeing and grasping the essential, whatever stays constant or is still there.

I think you already know all this. Only bear in mind Yi is not talking about a tap you can decide to turn off... I think the right way comes from your strength of feeling rather than from any attempt to limit it. I think.

Hi Hilary,

Yes, your 'not having cleared out a buch of old stuff' does really make sense - the 6th line represents the last stage, cleaning up and that sort of thing, but it has a yang line which is out of place, symbolizing the stuff that is hanging around. It gives the image of a neglected house, and a house which is neglected will soon tumble down (apart from that it is hard to sell). The small man focuses only on himself and therefore does not see a way out, he is too narrow-minded. The junzi focuses on his relation with his surrounding and more easily sees what is not right and what has to be done.

Fruit for planting: good thinking. But it is a hard kind of fruit, with a tough shell. It may take some time before it sprouts, unless you place it in the right kind of earth.

What Holland has with the Yi: I don't know. Maybe it is because we are a small country. What is small easily adapts to Change.....

Actually I have no idea. But you don't hear me complain.

Best wishes,

Harmen.

Hi Frank,

IMO Hilary puts it very well when she says that 59 'undefines' everything.
It reminds me of a book by Alan Watts, 'The wisdom of uncertainty'.
And the mystical 'cloud of unknowing' ..
Hmm, wouldn't that be a nice name for 59? When everything evaporates only that cloud remains.

Unanswered love is sad and painful and beautiful at the same time.
A friend of mine once said 'I didn't know that I had a soul. Now I know!'
And he looked at me and laughed. He was very happy at that moment.
I think this couldn't have happened unless he had already gone - at least partly - through a process that is similar to the one that is depicted in hexagram 59.
Allowing things to be as uncertain and undefined as they really are, letting it all go. It's maybe like returning to the state of innocence of the Fool in the Tarot.

Gemakkelijker gezegd dan gedaan?

23.6
Imagine it's late autumn.
There's a fruit tree up on the hill.
All the leaves are gone now.
There's only one fruit left, way up at the top,
that the pickers couldn't reach.
Pretty soon it will get overripe and fall.
Useless to anyone, except maybe the next
generation of fruit trees.
And the seed in there - it was never meant
to germinate inside the tasty, nice-looking fruit.
All the "good stuff" had to be stripped away.
That was just the mulch, not "what was germane".

Thank you very much, Harmen, Hillary, Martin (are you dutch too?) and Bradford for your interpetations. I was reading the posts, and started to write a respons, then I deleted the thing, and started to read your posts again and again... Then I was almost finished with another post and was pushing on a button which I should not have touched, as everything was gone... That gave me the opportunity to reconcider the way I wrote the post anyway, so here is the final draft then... (I hope :-D)

Harmen, nice to see you on this site. I think a Chunzi is a man who knows his own nature very well, and controls it, by trusting that it will resonate acordingly to nature outsite... I'm a controlfreak and very much a victim of my own negative thoughts and emotions in moodswings. I have a new idea, after reading the posts that the fruit could be my own power of thinking... Line 5 & 6 has a connection with the place of "heaven", which for me is connected to our thoughts... The way I think most of the time, in a negative manner, is 'not eatable'... The carriage is the speed of my thinking wich in good times see things realy clearly in seconds... But I lost that trust a bit and am busy for years already to just fill in what happens around me besides letting it happen... (exceptions made). 59 is in that matter a next chapter in how I can at least keep the connection with my collegue alive, and that is what Hillary is telling me in her post, and that is to not fill in everything, but just let it happen... That is something that I must get a grip on yes, as you told me...:-D. As for when I will not do so, my house, my 'self' will collapse... Thank you for your insite.

Hillary, I went to sea today, and with the winds above the waves I saw hexagram 59 becoming alive right in front of me :-D. Beautifull. That is not a 'hurtable' phase to look at... The clouds and waves where just there... so 59 to me today had also a meaning of 'just be'... do not fill in, but 'just be'... Let it happen, as I told above.
Wow... Yes, the horsepower is understandable, and taking the essence too, but we always forget that when we are in love :-D... Ofcourse I know these things but it's hard to remember on a high cloud :-D... I will try, for once, not to mail her for some weeks now (or not that much), see what happens... (that's a challenge :-D) And yes, as I already told above as well, I know that negative thoughts and feelings must be transformed in positive ones. I've been involved with a therapist for more then a year untill recent times, because of moodswings and the fact that my thoughts are leading me, instead of me leading them... I do have some serious moneyproblems, and that is making this therapist expencive for me, as she is not connected to get my money back trough my insurance... Right now I'm busy looking for someone who is, so that at least it will not cost me that much... I want to search for a solution in solving my moodswings and negative thinking in looking at in a biological matter, as I respond heavy in a situation which is not that heavy, and I'm doubting to follow a track with a psychologist in learning me coopingtechniques and handling my frustrations through a "depression protocol" as it is called officialy. So that is still definitly some 'old stuff' I'm working on.. and that is influencing the connection with the matter of my collegue and me as well, as I have to learn not to look that negative nowadays...
Let it happen... :-D

The Yi in Holland is popular, but most of the time, as a shame to me, only used as a collector of dustbunny's... Most of the people have there own ideas about it and some of us publice those idea's, as Han Boering did, with the Game of Changes, I mentioned a couple of days ago...
Ofcourse there's the site of I Tjing Centrum Nederland (in dutch)... Harmen is running that, with some other enthousiasts... You have LiSe's site in english, and some others have sites. There has not been a new dutch I Ching book lately, altough Han is one of the few people who gets his books publiced.

Martin, hallo... niet geweten dat je een nederlander was...:-D. Nice to call 59 a 'cloud of uncertainty'... Let things be uncertain, that's not a crime... yes I know that, ofcourse, but you have to keep reminding me that in my role as a controlfreak :-D... So lines 1 & 2 tells me how to deal with that uncertainty then (by using my own positive power)... That's something I realy in practice still can do, as SHE aproached me because of my sence of humor... I have been reading in a dutch I Ching book that I should try to get my sence of humor back.... Okidoki :-D
And man, yes your friend was right about it... I'm alive, and I do have a soul... (that's maybe the essence Hillary is talking about?)

Bradford, thank you for your words.

Thank you all again. I feel a little bit better now as my brain is in ease... 23.6 is already working :-D...

Hugs to you all,
Frank

Frank, hi. I was reading your post and felt for you. In my humble opinion I think that the fact you both overanalyze feelings since the first beginning is what kept you both to live something deeper in terms of passion. I dont know, this is how I see it being a passionate inner nature woman. Maybe if you should have only grabbed her and kissed her insted of talk too much it would be better. (My moon in scorpio speaking. lol)
Well....lol lol ....
Im not sure, thats just me, but anyway I would like to know that you sound a very good man and I wish you will find inner peace in this. It is hard to let go but maybe if you fall in love with yourself it would be easy. Look in the mirror and learn to love the one you see, Frank.
Have faith but keep your eyes and heart open to new possibilities because we never know the miracles that are in store for us.
I also pursued the unavailable and in the end I just realized that not have it was better for me. I just noticed I was more in love with the idea of being in love than really being in love. Fortunatelly life distanced me from stressful circumstances and then I was surprised by having new great energies coming into my life, including my inner peace.
My advice by now is to distance yourself from the source of anxiety (she) and try to get back to yourself. Fall in love with you... and then....... with patience...... go for her if you want, but being a refreshed and renewed Frank.
I am sure you are such a wonderful person that love yourself more is easy for you.
Just realize how amazing you are and focus more in yourself,ok?
Well, this is just a thought, Frank, but I wanted to speak my mind and tell you this since minute first I read your post.
Have faith and be happy.
Take care of yourself and let us know what happens, ok?
My best wishes,
WarmBreeze.

Hi Claire,

Thank you for your wonderfull post! I should have grabbed her and kiss instead of overcompansate in talking... Oh wow, now I wished I had my moon in Scorpio :-D...(It's in Cancer..., so very emotional indeed; Neptune is in my scorpio...)

I'm so afreaid of doing that... I do not want to be in trouble already when I 'read' the signals incorrect... so talking is a save thing to do... Aldo I said to her I get distant to get rit of the emotional bond a bit, what you say would be probably the most wanted wish to do right now... :-D... But i do not think it is the most tactic move yet... as she liked the idea of distance too... she told me that she does not feel the way i feel about her, so that is then a signal for nor grabbing here then...But man, do I want to...:-D

Mmmm makes me wonder... Should that horse in line 1 of 59 mean that I should have jumped in the first place? Maybe a good thing to ask the Yi again (grin)?

Yes I shurely will love myself now. And yes I'm realy going to try to get a bit emotional distance with her, and try again when I calmed down... Thanks for you wonderfull words, again, It really gives me suport where close friends tell me to let her go all the way and find it ridicilus that I even mail her in my own holiday, but heee, that's just who I'm, and I realy like this woman... But I have to start to like myself now better :-D... (as I already do).

Hug
Frank

Hi Claire,

I asked the Yi about the fact that 'what the hell will happen when I kiss her" (I go for your scorpio a little here) and I got 15 static... To me that's a signal I should not do that (yet :-D)
It was a nice try...

Happy Sunday,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I can tell you from my experience that this is a very positive line. When I got it I was in a very bad condition, the whole word was splitting apart. It was question of dead or life. I asked I Ching and the answer was 23.2.6. Some months after my life was completely changed, it was like a rebirth on a higher level.

Angelika

Hi Angelika,

Thank you for your post, and I shureley hope so things are changing for the better... I must keep myself in mind that 23.6 is the outcome towards the question of "how to get my self-esteem back and grow in this situation with my collegue in a mature way", but I think, acording to the other info I gave you all, the other things are involved as well, as they make me 'me' at this moment. Glad to hear that at least that load could be out of here in some months... I'm doubting in taking a training in awarness again (part 2 of a 3 step training), and talking to a psycholosist wich starts Tuesday... maybe that will be the thing wich changes it... Time will tell. I still feel a bit sad though... I hope I can talk to her still, even when I've got the buzz out of my ears, and she will not be mad at me, as I'm only me :-D...

Thanks again,
Frank