Hi all,

I have been using the Yi for a few years but always found it very difficult to intepret the answer. I would be very grateful for any advice.

I wanted to go overseas for an important meeting with the hope to speed up certain process. The timing can not be too early or too late. Mentally I planned to go in a week.
I asked the Yi to comment on my plan and get 26+1+3. The text of the hexagram and the two lines seem conflicting and, right now, I am feeling very modest about my ability to read. Can anyone help?

Modesty

Well, this message is difficult to interpret because it's contradictory. I would interpret this as follows:
Line 1 - either "don't go" or going will eventually result in some unexpected problems/issues
Line 3 - if you do go, try to be as described in the line - ie, serious, engaged, diligently focussing on learning/improving

What the negative consequences might be, how serious they are, and whether they outweigh the benefits of going are, of course, difficult to determine from just the line text of 26.1. If you're seriously worried about it, you might try asking a carefully phrased follow up question to help learn about the nature/severity of the difficulty.

Best of luck,

- Jeff

Follow up

Actually, my wife is overseas and is reluctant to come home as her mother wants to keep her there as long as possible and that she is afraid of the loneliness of living in new country (where we are living). I like to go to her family and persuade her to come home now but I think I will meet with great resistance from her mother who exercises great influence over my wife.

I asked the Yi to give me advice as I did not understand the last reading. I got 39 +1+4 resulting in 49.

Does it mean that I should just stay and wait for her to come home?

line 1: Going leads to obstructions,
Coming meets with praise.

line 4: Going leads to obstructions,
Coming leads to union.


Does hex 39 represent only a temporal set back ? what about hex 49?
Appreciate any help coming my way

Modesty

When lines are conflicting as in your first reading I sometimes pay more attention to the relating hexagram which here was 3, new beginnings. I would tend therefore to see your first reading of 26-3 as encouraging your action. I think it was saying that yes it will be difficult and its something you have to work hard it, but it does not advise you to give up. I think 26 is encouraging careful planning, perhaps being clever in how you work your relationship with the mother to ease the situation, cunning negotiation in other words rather than confrontation.

For your second question yes 39 is obstructions and how to deal with them. Elsewhere Hilary said (I think) that 39 asks you to re-evaluate your approach to a problem. That lonely heroic efforts to get things sorted all on your own
is probably not the best way forward. This doesn't mean giving up just reconsidering how your're going to do this, perhaps a bit more planning, perhaps making a change from previous approaches to the problem. 'Going' here in 39 I think means your old ways of doing things, old directions. 'Coming' is new approaches. I think the relating hexagram 49 is very positive. To me it does suggest there is a strrong element of good timing in the situation. Eventually 'you will be believed' on your 'own day' when the time comes.

Having said all that I guess its up to your wife rather than her mother what she does ?

Looking at it another way it may be 39 is referring to your difficulties in the new country ?

Thanks Trojan

I think what you said makes sense. However, I do not think the new country represents the obstruction. The obstruction in my case is human interference. I even had the Yi's confirmation " the marriage has been sterile, this is the work of deceitful persons who have wormed their way in. However, as things develop, reconciliation will be achieved at the end". Because of this, I am hoping that Hex 39 is temporal and can be overcomed by retreating and wait for the force of evil to spend itself. Have I got this (nature of 39) correctly ?

Trojan - Actually 26 lines 1 and 3 doesn't change to hex 3, but to 4. It's about inexperience, about not quite knowing what to do.

Hi Modesty,

I think that Wilhelm's translation of these lines from hexagram 39 is incorrect. There actually should have been a Chinese character meaning "leads to" for his way of translating this, but there isn't. Also, this is not really about obstruction, but about trouble. I'm translating these lines as:

39.139.4So this is about going through an unpleasantly difficult experience, which is praiseworthy to do (39.1), and necessary for the continuation of a situation (39.4). This leads to change (hex 49). As the hexagram text (judgment) of 49 says, it may take some time before there is enough confidence to actually make the change:This change will be a source of fulfillment, and the regrets about it, that particularly your wife seems to have, will go away.

I think this actually applies to both you and your wife, and perhaps also to your wife's mother. Perhaps you could use this to persuade your wife?

Thanks Ewald

Hi Ewald,

It's amazing how we can intepret the text. Does the word (來) means arriving or coming? or can it be either in Chinese? Blofield, Wilhlem and Leggs have the same translation more or less but I guess it is actually unclear from the text
往
蹇
來
連

Going Trouble, coming - linkage, union

I am dying to go and meet my son but I fear two things: the poisonous nature of the old lady and that my wife may need a bit more time so that when she finally realise she wants to come back, there is no regret and this is less likely to happen again.

If I wait, there is certain benefit but I am not too sure how long I can hold it for, my longing to see my son is beyond what I can bear. At the same time, I do not want to compromise my integrity by facing a very poisonous person who will be even more determined to destroy the harmony of my family.

Is there another approach, another question that I can ask the Yi to clarify things further?

Modesry

Hi Modesty

Your situation seems identical to bluestone's situation... (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=3080)

are you the same people under diferent nicks?

Well, anyway.. i'll suggest you the following Dialogue:
a) General diagnosis of my family
b) Under wich Time is my plan to travel to persuade my wife come home
c) best way to persuade her to come home

Best wishes

Hi Modesty,
來 can mean come, arrive, invite, come here, come back, cause to come, so it has a broad meaning, all of which is related to "to come."

I think that the reason all those authors have about the same translation, is that they all have relied on the first one to publish a widely known translation into a modern Western language, namely Legge. When you start anew with a Yijing translation, you're going to look at authors who did it before, and you are going to be influenced by them. If a particular text is unclear to you, you might simply rephrase something another translator has done before in your own style. And these short line texts of 39 are a bit unclear.
They may also have relied on the same dictionary, that may have had its limitations.

As I see it, there should have been either of several Chinese characters there if "leads to" was intended. 致 or 至 as in 5.3 come to mind, or perhaps 則 as in 60.3.

往 go, go forward, go toward, proceed, depart, leave
蹇 lame, crippled / complication, difficulty, unlucky, suffer, setback
來 come, arrive, invite, come here, come back, cause to come
連 connect, join, unite, belong to / arrange, put in a row / continuous, in succession / iron chain

Going forward - trouble - arrive/cause to come - continuation
or: Going through trouble, arriving at continuation

I translate simply as it is in Chinese: Going trouble, coming - linkage, union (or, in line 1, praise). I also don't see any 'leads to', but no 'through' either.

Going has to do with the past, and with proceeding from out that, but it means also 'toward'. Coming with future and with arriving. So another translation might be
'toward trouble, arriving union'. Sounds a bit like daring to deal with the trouble or obstruction, and that way finding union.

LiSe

heylise said:

I also don't see any 'leads to', but no 'through' either.

Click to expand...

Indeed, there is no character for "through" in the Chinese text.

Muller also mentions face (toward) as a meaning for 往. So "Facing trouble." I think that's almost similar to "Going through trouble." Also, "going through" is an aspect of "going" (like "toward"), which "leads to" is not.

As the Yijing is not about future or past situations (although future and past are sometimes implied), but current ones, "going through" makes more sense to me than "going toward," which suggests a future that might still change.

Hi Ewald

I disagree about Yi Jing is not about future or past situations (past and future implied only sometiemes), because of 3 reasons:

1.- Historically.- I don't know if Zhou Yi is not about future or past situation... but Yijing (meaning the canonical given text: Zhouyi and 10 Wings comments) had several statmentes in it's text about how any given situation always embodies its past and its future development. You can confirm this by reading the Ta Chuan (One of the 10 Wings, so part of the Yijing's canonical given text)

2.- Cosmologically.- The sense of Yijing (as showed in the Wings; again I'm talking about Yijing and not merly Zhouyi) is the process of change.. that implies a movement of the situation from past, through present, toward future

3 Practically.- I had find, in my experience, that one can derivate in every answer (hexagram and line), past causes and future effects. To know how to apply this tools , in practical advices, is helpful for deeper and wider interpretations (as I give when I do private readings)

Best wishes

Jesed - But every line and hexagram text is about an intent of a current situation. It's fine with me if you want to use that current situation to derive a past or a future from. Expressions like "regret goes away," or "a source of good fortune" imply that. Also that you see it as a change. But it's still basically a current situation.

26 Ta Ch’u - The Taming Power of the Great
26.0 - The Judgement

This hexagram represents a strong element checking another strong element. However, who or what is doing the checking is only one important element-the other is what (eg. a behavior, conditioning, activity, etc.) is being checked. One strong element doing the checking could be one’s will, another could be a person in an authoritative position. Some examples of the “what” that is being checked are: the urge to move forward, to do something, to transcend a negative conditioning, to resist an opponent, to influence a powerful person, etc.

Using the will to resist and change negative behavior or people, does not mean that one must force oneself to act correctly. The use of the will must be prepared through meditations on truisms (wise or spiritual counsel). By repeating several times a day, in most cases for 21 days straight, ideas can be implanted into the mind to influence thinking and behavior-which feeds the will.

Once the person has gained success in the use of the will for self-mastery, he/she is thus equipped to manage others and should therefore consider entering public service, or working at the head of an enterprise, etc.


Recommended Reports
1. Divine Law Meditation
2. Balancing the Life-force

26.1 - Line 1

This line represents a situation in which a person is inclined to advance vigorously or quickly, or to satisfy his urges, or is being impatient. Since such a way of functioning is not in harmony with the “situation,” it is best to hold back through an act of will and wait until the right moment presents itself.

26.3 - Line 3

This line represents a situation in which the hindrance to your moving forward is beginning to melt away. Even if you have competent help, there is still danger at hand. You must remain cautious, and sharpen the skills needed to completely accomplish the task.

4 Mêng - Youthful Folly
4.0 - The Judgement

This hexagram appears in situations where lack of experience is the key factor. It gives counsel to the teacher as well as the student.
Counsel to the student:

The student has within her/him the ability to succeed, but must be conscious of his/her lack of knowledge and experience. One must first find the right teacher (one with a proven record, or one approved by the oracle--consult!). Once such a teacher is found, the student must adopt and maintain an attitude of respect, humility and gratitude towards the teacher. Due diligence must be given to the material studied. When it is not, it shows up in the form of unintelligent, or repetitious, and/or doubt ridden questions. If the teacher is the oracle itself, then the answer given to repetitious questioning will be a rebuke! Thereafter, the teacher should meet such questions with silence.

Counsel to the teacher:

In order to establish the right relationship with the student, the teacher must be clear of the fact that it is the student that needs her/him. She/he must therefore wait for the student to come to her/him, and not run after the latter. Otherwise, leverage is lost along with humility on the part of the student. First and foremost, to serve as a teacher, you must prove yourself. One sure way to do so is to have the oracle back-up the soundness of your fundamental theories. This, however, will not be found acceptable to most. You must, therefore, be ready to show that reasoning from the premises making up your theories, is supported by experience.


Are you two from different cultures? If so are you familiar with her culture and the way things work in the family?

Dear Ewald

I'll try to express myself better.

The text of Yijing (in the Wings's comments) uses several setences to present repeatedely one cosmological point of view: there is no past/present/future as separate boxes...

Every "present" situation embodies as integral part of the situation it's causes and it's tendencies of development. So, according with Yijing's philosophy, in every "present situation" are implied past and future; not just in some cases.

This cosmological point of view (diferent from a Western point of view in general terms), expresed historically in the Wings of the Yijing, can be experienced and corroborated in practical consultations.

I hope this make more sense of what I want to say.

Best wishes

Jesed - I don't see how this is supposed to change my position that every situation described in a line or hexagram text is necessarily current. There is a current situation and you are interested in the implied past and future, that is there in all cases. Fine with me.
Each line is basically still a current situation, in the sense that "going toward" is in this instance not as good a translation as "going through," because it refers to a future situation, instead of a current one.

I agree with Jesed. I don't even think that the Yi is about situations at all. It is about possibilities, and of course that includes a lot of this-situation-now, but it also includes every possible future situation, which might be brought about by choices or events 'now'. It includes past situations, because these too influence choices and events. It includes them not as solid facts, but as a big mix of influences, vibrations.

So going through trouble is for me too much 'situation', too concrete. It does not leave space for possibilities. 'Facing' trouble is a lot better. 'Towards' in its turn is more open than facing, which still feels like an 'act'. Towards includes that fact too, but also an attitude, feelings. But all these words still feel too narrow to me. It is very difficult, to find a word which really gives the openness the Chinese 'go' gives. It includes all these meanings, including the literal 'going', but also proceeding from out the past.

The search goes on...

LiSe

To be more precise: I consider the Yijing to be primarily about intent. This intent is mostly depicted in situations. These situations are depicted as now (current), so not as an intention (which is something else as intent).

now and then

In TCM there is the energy of the Heart, the pure cosmic energy,the energy of living now. This energy has no future or past and on the other hand is connected with the future and the past. It is the perfect paradox.

By start living on earth there comes time and space. In TCM, the energy of the protector of the Heart (pericardium, the muscle of the heart) time and Triple heater the energy that divides space.

How stronger the energy of the pericardium is how better we can live at this moment, then you know when to open your heart and with an open heart you can learn in a spiritual way. But sometimes you have to close the "doors" of your heart otherwise you can get hurt to much.

I think that the Yi can learn you to act more from a heart level, be open but integrating the future and the past in the moment without nowing where your live is heading. With the intention to learn new levels and with facing your own fears and to go beyond those.

Frank R

Hi ewald

1.- You said that just in some cases past and future are implied--- what I said is that in every case past and future is implied.. That is a diference. I gave historical, cosmological and practical arguments to satnd that in Yijing, past and future are implied ALWAYS, and not only in some cases.

2.- In the cosmology of Yijing about time (past and future implied in every single "present"), this implication doesn't depend on personal/subjective interest of the consultant about those implications... they are implied all the time, no matter if the consultan doesn't have interest or knowledge to find them

3.- Now, your point... Yi is about intents... is respetable as a 21t Century understanding, but historically doesn't correspond to the Yijing (I mean, with the Zhouyi plus 10 Wings). There are several texts of that age, that shows Yi was used also to describe objects, just for example. The author of later Ling Chi Ching was famous to use Yijing to describe hidden objects inside a box.

4.- Your sentence Yijing is only about current situation is not in accordance with Yijing (Zhouyi plus 10 Wings), neither with practical aplication. In Yijing tools, one is to determinate if the hex is in the present or in the past; and one particular posibility is that the entire hexagram is in the Past. Even more, a very particular bad situation in when both Principal and Tendential hexagram are absolutely in the Past. In this forum, I had find 2 cases of this situation (bot hex in the Past): one public with autumn; and one that I answered in private message. They could say if the interpretation of what it means both hex absolutely in the past (psicological past) is a) truth and b)useful

Best wishes

Hi Jesed,

1. No, I just gave a few examples of implied future and past in line texts. Actually the way you see future and past implied is not about my point.
2. Like I said twice before, I have no problem with that in the context of my point.
3. Talking about this in terms of intent is my understanding. I don't particularly care whether that is reflected or not in those terms in the Wings.
4. I think you misinterpret my point. I'm not talking about the time that a line situation is happening, as you do, but about language and grammar. For the sake of the argument, let us say that we are talking about a reading where the question was about what is happening now. Then the grammar of the line text must reflect that, if a translator has been doing his or her job adequately. In 39.4, the person is in a troublesome situation at that very moment. He or she is not going to be in trouble later, but is it now.

It is actually this "living in the moment" that Frank is talking about, which meditation aims at, that brought me to this point.

thankyou all

I am overwhelmed with the responses and advices. Some of which I can follow, some went over my head. I feel very humble looking at the scholarship and insight of the Yi in this thread.
It took me a couple of days to digest the materials. In the mean time, I have more and more developments that the Yi very aply describes as "Shock goes hither and thither.
Danger.
However, nothing at all is lost.
Yet there are things to be done".

I am afraid my last query can be also controversial but for the ease of reading, I will put in a new thread.

Once again, my heart felt gratitude for all of your advices and I hope one day, I can also offer the same help to other in need in this forum.

God Bless

ewald said:

As the Yijing is not about future or past situations (although future and past are sometimes implied), but current ones,

Click to expand...

From here, I understand:
a) You was talking about Yijing, and not about personal interpretation
b) You was saying that future and past are implied only sometimes

Maybe it was my lacking English that lead me to misunderstand?

best wishes

What I meant to say is that sometimes sentences of line and hexagram texts, refer to something preceding or succeeding the situation. In other words, there are some texts that have parts of it explicitly referring to future or past. Examples of this are "regret goes away," which refers to a past that apparently was unpleasant, or in 43.1 " Strength is from prior steps." "Good fortune" actually refers to the future succeeding the situation in the line text.

So I didn't intend to make a general statement about this.

Thanks for the clarification....

Now, let me ask if I understand you well this time:

"When doing a translation of the text, present would be the general
gramatical time to use; except when it is quite clear the use of future or past gramatical time"

Phrased in that way, I totally agree with you

Best wishes

Indeed, that's what I meant.