there are different versions of the Yi, right?

dobro · Oct 19, 2006

There are different versions of the Yi, right? I've got a Chinese version that I use, but it doesn't correspond exactly to the one that Wilhem/Baynes and Karcher drew on, for example. I know this, cuz in some cases some lines have a different number of characters, and in one case I came across, the Karcher version has a positive character, but my Chinese version has the Chinese word for 'not' in front of it. Duh...

So I'd like to know if any of you know of the Chinese version of the Yi that western translators use. Oh, yes - and where I can get it.

ewald · Oct 19, 2006

Bradford used to have a corrected version of the Chinese text of the Zhouyi on his site, under "M" (it's no longer there). After I found a couple of error's in the AFPC's version, that I had at first been using, I switched to Bradford's.

The most widely available version seems to be the Harvard-Yenching Zhouyi. I believe Bradford's version is partly based on that one.

I noticed that in lines 11.1 and 12.1 there is a character that differs among versions. The last character of the first sentence is 彙 in the version I use, but the Harvard-Yenching version has 夤.

After translating the Images, I found that there here and there was quite some discrepancy between the text I had been using (which seems to have come from Harvard Yenching originally) and the one from Bradford's site. There are different characters in the Images of hexagrams 1 - 10 - 11 - 15 - 21 - 23 - 39 - 43 - 49 - 51.

Bradford's version of the Image seems to be very close to what Wilhelm used. To me the other version seems to make more sense, however.

ewald · Oct 19, 2006

I put the Harvard-Yenching version in a database and wrote a script to compare the two versions.
Not counting the difference between 旡 and 無, and having corrected one incorrect character in 4.0 (噬 should be 筮), there are 35 lines with differences. They are in:

1.2 - 2.6 - 3.0 - 4.0 - 4.3 - 11.1 - 12.1 - 12.5 - 14.3 - 21.1 - 21.3 - 24.1 - 25.2 - 25.3 - 26.3 - 28.5 - 29.6 - 30.6 - 33.3 - 35.4 - 36.4 - 37.5 - 41.1 - 41.6 - 44.1 - 47.1 - 48.2 - 49.0 - 49.2 - 53.6 - 55.3 - 57.0 - 59.2 - 61.1 - 63.4

That's quite a lot, actually.

ewald · Oct 19, 2006

I took the Harvard-Yenching version of this comparison from www.harvard-yenching.net. Apparently, this is a useless mess. The one on www.biroco.com is a lot more similar to Bradford's version.

stevev · Oct 19, 2006

ewald said:
Bradford's version of the Image seems to be very close to what Wilhelm used.

THE IMAGE (Wilhelm)
The movement of heaven is full of power.
Thus the superior man makes himself strong and
untiring.

Since there is only one heaven, the doubling of the trigram Ch'ien, of which
heaven is the image, indicates the movement of heaven. One complete
revolution of heaven makes a day, and the repetition of the trigram means
that each day is followed by another. This creates the idea of time. Since it is
the same heaven moving with untiring power, there is also created the idea
of duration both in and beyond time, a movement that never stops nor
slackens, just as one day follows another in an unending course. This
duration in time is the image of the power inherent in the Creative.
With this image as a model, the sage learns how best to develop himself so
that his influence may endure. He must make himself strong in every way,
by consciously casting out all that is inferior and degrading. Thus he attains
that tirelessness which depends upon consciously limiting the fields of his
activity.

01.X, Overall Image (Hatcher)
Heaven moves inexhaustibly
The noble young one, accordingly,
is naturally energetic, without rest

Heaven and heaven only is in motion as always, and is at least twice as great as
anyone ever thought. Forever is only half spent, so things could go twice this far.
Life’s little part in forever is heaven evolving to know itself, a great work indeed,
and a life of great work wants a lasting supply of power, with strength to create
and not merely endure. We things and selves are too finite and humble for this.
To team with the power that drives the stars is to feed on nature’s momentum,
to move with nature’s inertia and so to act in accord with the time. True sorcery
uses this source. The power even to know this requires both patience and sense.

Ok I see that the first sections are the same, but the second sections are so different. Wilhelm just seems dry and technical now, with the occasional interesting bit. Where does this text come from ? Thats what I like, I can take or leave the first section.

ewald · Oct 19, 2006

I found 2 differences between Bradford's version and the one on www.biroco.com (by comparing the previously found differences with that). They're in lines 26.3 and 63.4.

26.3, character at position 7
Bradford: 日
Biroco: 曰

63.4, character at position 1
Bradford: 襦
Biroco: 繻

ewald · Oct 19, 2006

Steve - Perhaps I was a bit unclear.

With "Bradford's version," I mean Bradford's version of the original Chinese text. Not his translation of that. The second sections are not part of the original Chinese text. They're what the authors commented.

stevev · Oct 19, 2006

Hello Ewald,

Yes I understand that, and I can see that the translation of the first section came from the same chinese source. You can see variations on this theme in any number of IChing books, the second section is often a commentary from various sources, often just the translater's opinion, but Bradford seems to be just translating something that I've never seen before ?

Regards

bradford · Oct 20, 2006

Thanks Ewald-
Your program might have caught a typo in each.
26.3 is definitely ri4, "daily"
63.4 I don't know where I got this character.
It's Mathews 3150, not 2845 like the Matrix says. That number is the
same a Steve's (Joel's) character, which agrees with both H-Y and
the ZD Sung text
They may have been the same back then and I got it from Kunst.
To make it even more confusing, there's a pun in the words as
both were pronounced. Ru2 also meant leak, which the metaphor
plays with. Fine silk, jacket or not, plus leak = caulking rag
Anyway, I may revise it next pass. Thanks.

bradford · Oct 20, 2006

Hi Dobro-
Si- there are many Yijing texts. Even descended from the received text, based on the Zhouyi Zhezhong of 1715. Among them I used Kunst, ZD Sung, Harvard Yenching and the Zhouyi Zhezhong itself. All are in my Bibliography. Plus I discuss some of the choices I made between them in a short section appended to the Matrix. Thankfully they aren't as widely different as Laozi texts.
Then there's a bunch of texts not represented in the "official" 1715 version, the main 5 being: DunHuang, Han Stone, Mawangdui BoShu, Han FuYang ChuJian, Chu ShangHai Chujian. The only one of these I used was the Mawangdui.

bradford · Oct 20, 2006

Hi Stevev-
The portions in my Section C that sit below the translations
are just my own commentary. They attempt to scope out
some the meanings in the text above, but they do it in a way
that most people aren"t used to (and in a way that some people
really don't like, but I explain this in the intro to that section).

stevev · Oct 20, 2006

Hello Bradford,

So your saying that this is your translation of the "Received" Image:

"Heaven moves inexhaustibly
The noble young one, accordingly,
is naturally energetic, without rest"

And that's all there is of it.

And this is your commentary:

"Heaven and heaven only is in motion as always, and is at least twice as great as anyone ever thought. Forever is only half spent, so things could go twice this far."

Which sounds like a translation of something, I mean it doesn't seem like "common" english. It has the same flavour of text that you see glimpses of in Wilhelm's commentry etc, in between the technical description of who's on top and who's on the bottom, which line is the ruler, which hexagram is the inverse, and what attributes each of these things have.

I like it, to me it has the same spirit, of the message I always thought the IChing was saying, mind you, you might just have the same problem I have, what ever that is !

Regards

Steve

bradford · Oct 20, 2006

So I've been talking with Steve (Joel) about Ri vs Yue at 26.4
and my footing isn't as sound as I thought. I may have botched
that one too, but in the company of Wu, Wilhelm, Legge, Sung
and Rutt. It's Ri in the Sung text, but Yue in the Zhouyi Zhezhong,
the Harvard-Yenching, and maybe the big nails, the Mawangdui
and the Wang Bi. That means if it's mistake it's very old.
What I want is a translation of Yue that makes as much sense in this
line as Ri does. "Daily" training I understand.

ewald · Oct 20, 2006

Harmen has "said" (Yue1) :

26-3: 良馬逐。利艱貞。曰閑輿衛。利有攸往。
"A chase with good horses. Favourable to have a hard times divination. It is said, use chariots as blockade for defence. Favourable to have a youwang."

ewald · Oct 20, 2006

Harmen also has an interesting article (in English) about 63.4.
Acknowledging that there is 繻, he still thinks the meaning of "jacket" of 襦 is valid here, as both characters were equalled.

dobro · Oct 21, 2006

ewald, Bradford: thank you. I'll go with the Harvard-Yenching version and Bradford's, I think.

dobro · Oct 21, 2006

By the way, I've got a question about the punctuation of the Yi - is the way the lines are phrased and punctuated also part of the version? I'm assuming so. But it makes more sense to me sometimes if I jigger the punctuation. For instance, Hex 26 reads:

不家食。吉

But it makes more sense to me to omit the break between the third and fourth characters:

不家食吉

How radical an approach is that?

bradford · Oct 21, 2006

Dobro-
OK, but remember that until I get these corrections made, this version
is two characters better. But it doesn't have the Ten Wings.
http://biroco.com/yijing/entire.htm
Again, I point out my own differences with Sung and the H-Y at the end of the Matrix

The punctuation you are talking about is "parsing". The original was all run together.
Later scribes sorted it into blocks, according to preference and understanding.
The Ten Wings saw the introduction of a punctuation particle "ye" that Karcher
renders indeed, but it's mainly just a period. Sometimes it makes a big difference, especially if the breaks are considered to be anything harder than commas.
Again, at the end of the Matrix there are alternate parsings given.

bradford · Oct 21, 2006

dobro said:
不家食吉 how radical an approach is that?

In this case it makes little difference
Not dining at home. Promising.
Not dining at home (is) promising.

I went with the second.
There is a general tendency in the Yi to four-character statements.
Definitely not a rule though

dobro · Oct 21, 2006

Huh. One the best exchanges we've ever had by golly.

"The punctuation you are talking about is "parsing". The original was all run together."

Man, you just made my day. I picked up some useful terminology, and I just learned something about the original that makes mine righteous. Near as I can tell then, I've parsed mine in an acceptable and useful fashion.

I'll check your alternate parsings at the end of the Matrix - this'll be fun.

Thank you very much. (a four-character statement)

willowfox · Oct 21, 2006

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1812 Old Japanese Book of Changes (I Ching) - 2 vols - $65.00(starting bid)
$5.80(post rate) Oct-21 00:14(start time).

dobro · Oct 21, 2006

Man oh man oh man oh man.

I just spent a bit of a morning checking out Steve's site and Bradford's site. What have I let myself in for? What a treasure trove of material. I've just been scratching the surface. Damn.

dobro · Nov 2, 2006

Okay, I've printed out Bradford's glossary and I'm starting to print out the HY Yi from Steve's site. Nice.

Now... any recommendations for a Chinese/English dictionary to augment this?

bradford · Nov 2, 2006

Dobro-
My Matrix and Glossaries give reference numbers for both Karlgren and Mathews, both long-time stanbys. It also gives radical + stroke count. Saves lots of looking up time. I use Tor Ulving's alphatbetized Karlgren. And Karlgren's study of characters.Also Schuessler's Dictionary of Early Zhou Chinese. Weiger you should have. The Five Thousand Dictionary.The Zhongwen hard copy. I also used a stack of Taiwanese dictionaries of classical Chinese. And the published glossaries of Richard Kunst and the big Ritsema-Karcher. LiSe's site is helpful and fun. My glossary combines definitions from all of these, but only for the words used 5 or more times.
Harmen, who I hope chimes in here has a handle on some more recent dictionaries. I'd really like to see what his top three are.
Some on line:
http://www.monashwushu.com/dic
http://www.zhongwen.com/zi.htm

dobro · Nov 3, 2006

Thanks, Bradford. I have the Ritsema-Karmer. A beginning, yes? lol

hmesker · Nov 3, 2006

bradford said:
Harmen, who I hope chimes in here has a handle on some more recent dictionaries. I'd really like to see what his top three are.

*chime*

Actually, I hardly use C-E dictionaries, I almost only use C-C dictionaries. The main problem with most C-E dictionaries is that they don't give a timeframe for a certain meaning, which makes it very easy to incorporate anachronisms in your translation. For instance, if you look at the usual C-E dictionaries for the meaning of the name of hexagram 5, xu 需, they will tell you that it means 'to need, to require; to demand', 'expenses; provisions; needs; necessaries', 'hesitation, delay' (Far East C-E Dictionary, entry 6692; Mathews entry 2844). But when it comes to the meaning of 'to need, to require', the very useful Wang Li Gu Hanyu Zidian 王力古漢語字典 dictionary explicitly says that this is '後起義', 'a meaning which arose later'. For this it cites the Liuzi Xin Lun 劉子新論, and if internet is well informed this book is written by Liu Zhou 劉晝, who lived from 516-567. Which is way after the time the Yi is supposed to be written. Instead of modern dictionaries the Wang Li Gu Hanyu Zidian, which deals with 'gu hanyu 古漢語' - old Chinese, gives 'waiting' as first meaning. It cites the Zhuangzi for this. The charming Hanyu Ziyuan Zidian 漢語字源字典 dictionary, which because of its clumsy pictures is not always taken seriously, confirms this. In modern Chinese xu means 'to need', but this meaning did not yet exist in Zhou times. Nevertheless many translators give it as a valid meaning; even worse, a friend of mine translated hexagram 5 as 'to need'. Which in my view is completely wrong.

(Sidenote: What I find interesting about the old form of xu ( 𩂉 ) is that the top part of the character is 'rain' (water), and the lower part is 'heaven'. What are the trigrams of hexagram 5? Above ....., below ..... Fascinating, isn't it?)

But if you insist that I give a list of C-E dictionaries, I would give the following, with great hesitation:

1. Far East C-E dictionary (because it sometimes gives sources for certain meanings and it is quite complete)
2. Mathews C-E dictionary
3. Schuessler's A Dictionary of Early Zhou Chinese (but it omits quite some characters so is not complete)

But in reality I recommend this:

1. 漢語大字典
2. 王力古漢語字典
and for compounds
3. 漢語大詞典

See also http://www.i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/archives/49-My-references.html

Best wishes,

Harmen.

bradford · Nov 3, 2006

Thanks, Harmen
Do we have an ETA on Your translation yet?
brad

hmesker · Nov 3, 2006

bradford said:
Do we have an ETA on Your translation yet?brad

Hmmm....I give myself 10 years. But then I am afraid I am too much in a hurry.

HM

bradford · Nov 3, 2006

hmesker said:
Hmmm....I give myself 10 years. But then I am afraid I am too much in a hurry. HM

I trust you're already aware that the name "Changes" is really an inside joke among all of those who ever thought they had a final draft. The only way to "finish" is to die.
Looking forward to your rough draft in ten years.
B

cjgait · Nov 4, 2006

Waiting

hmesker said:
Hmmm....I give myself 10 years. But then I am afraid I am too much in a hurry.

HM

A master said, not the one you are thinking of: "If I could add 50 years to my life I would devote them to waiting for Harmen's translation. Thus I could avoid overstepping the bounds."

there are different versions of the Yi, right?

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