I have a general question about hex 23 splitting apart, particularly in regards to questions of a romantic nature.

Should it be taken literally, also what about when it comes up as a relating hexagram in a romantic question. Does that mean that whatever primary hex you get is to be interpreted as the nature and or the circumstances of your split with the person in question?

Thanks in advance...

It's not possible to give a definite answer, really, without knowing the whole question and response. But generally speaking hexagram 23 is not good relationship news. The old character includes the image of a knife, and it describes the experience of having something cut away. That 'something' has to go, because it's exhausted or defunct somehow, but it usually doesn't feel like something you can do without.

It wouldn't necessarily be a relationship split, but it would be a loss, probably painful. Maybe losing the relationship, maybe 'just' losing your idea of who you are or who the other person is, or your sense of being safe with them. In an ideal world, this should be the prelude to growing something more authentic and alive in the space that's left behind.

hilary said:

The old character includes the image of a knife, and it describes the experience of having something cut away. That 'something' has to go, because it's exhausted or defunct somehow, but it usually doesn't feel like something you can do without.

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That's a really good description. 23 isn't exactly splitting away; it's more like carving away, like you do meat off a bone. And the 'ouch' is often there.

It certainly is. The interesting thing is that the Image implies it doesn't have to be. Stripping Away could be as quiet and natural as a process of erosion, 'generosity from above' creating tranquil homes below (presumably with happy well-fed people enjoying the fertile fields). It's just that the more usual experience of it tends to involve the sense of being flayed - or at least, as someone said to me the other day, the removal of a sticking plaster.

dobro said:

That's a really good description. 23 isn't exactly splitting away; it's more like carving away, like you do meat off a bone. And the 'ouch' is often there.

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Band-Aids stripping off the scabs when you pull them up (that's an image an 8 year old would appreciate... ) For the ladies, I have "Brazilian waxing"

BTW, I don't get the image of "slow stripping" or "erosion" at all with 23. It always seems to be a pretty sudden occurrence. Perhaps, circumstances preceding the situation of 23 are the actual "erosion" process, but not 23. When 23 appears, the cards are dealt.

Me neither. However -

'Mountain rests on the earth. Stripping Away.
With generosity from above, creating tranquil places below.'

- seems pretty clear. The mountain has always been in the process of eroding, and always will be; it doesn't find it painful. What you build up is always in the process of crumbling away to nourish whatever is to grow next.

Of course, if you keep image-making (22) after the time for that is past, then you might find yourself like those cartoon characters who keep running for a while before they notice the cliff ended a few yards behind them.

hilary said:

Me neither. However -

'Mountain rests on the earth. Stripping Away.
With generosity from above, creating tranquil places below.'

- seems pretty clear. The mountain has always been in the process of eroding, and always will be; it doesn't find it painful. What you build up is always in the process of crumbling away to nourish whatever is to grow next.

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In the way I see it, there are another 7 hexagrams showing the Mountain above. If you take the lower trigrams in binary sequence, 23 seems to be both, the "Big Crunch" and the "Big Bang" of that sequence, an end that is also a beginning. The 23->27->4->41->52->22->18->26 sequence--interesting how six of them live in the Lower Canon--should tell a story of how that process works and cycles. For that reason is that I believe the process of erosion happens elsewhere and 23 is the actual crumbling and pile-up (be it material or energy pile-up--First Law of Thermodynamics). Yes, we can visualize "erosion" in 23 but only as its ultimate consequence, not as the process itself.

sparhawk said:

...interesting how six of them live in the Lower Canon...

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Ah - have you read Danny van den Berghe's 'I Ching Landscape' article, available from here? Definitely my favourite article on the sequence.

Mountain on the outside mostly seems to me to be closing off and defining a space, often to nurture and develop what's inside it. It's just that in 23 you find your boundary is also crumbling.

Question: if there's no erosion in 23, then what were the Daxiang authors on about?

hilary said:

Mountain on the outside mostly seems to me to be closing off and defining a space, often to nurture and develop what's inside it. It's just that in 23 you find your boundary is also crumbling.

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I think so too. Remember also that both trigrams have downward tendencies and they move together. The Mountain rest on the Earth and pushes down on something that by sheer gravity is already compacting. There seems to be a lot of entropy in that hexagram-situation, but, even in chaos there is a seed of order.

Question: if there's no erosion in 23, then what were the Daxiang authors on about?

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Good question. We can never be sure what they meant, however, we can play with the images and use some analogies and metaphors. For example, I can think of it in terms of farming and gardening. In those terms, tilling and composting come to mind. When you plow fields you are pushing the remains of the previous crop into the earth and that provides nutrients to it for the next crop. In composting, the top layer looks untouched but what's at the bottom is fed from that above and thus its usefulness. If left alone, all becomes part of the earth by assimilation. Thus the "collapsing" described by 23 is the final stage, when assimilation is completed, just to begin again, as in a new crop.

Does any author write in detail about which hexagrams move in which directions, and how that affects the ways they relate? There seem to be scraps of information scattered about, but I don't think I've ever seen a single exposition covering all 8. Can you suggest something?

Most of those attributes are associations derived from the Shuo Gua. You can find some explanatory comments in Wilhelm's. The Trigram tendencies is something I learned very early on and I use in my interpretations all the time. I will look in some of my books later to see if I find some specific quotes...

If anyone else has some quotations, please don't be shy...

hilary said:

Does any author write in detail about which hexagrams move in which directions,

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Hmmm, your question is about Hexagrams or Trigrams? When the Trigrams are paired in Hexagrams, those tendencies become evident as interactions, etc. It gets mighty complicated and is a good visualization exercise. Take 11 and 12, for example.

I meant trigrams. Sorry. Brain on hiatus today.

Hex 23 structure and interpretion from its line places

The hexagrams of the I Ching are symbolic patterns which are then translated into imagery in words. Their meaning arises first and foremost from their actual structure. Understanding that structure depends upon upon your background assumptions or expectations ( called Tao or Trail or context).

Traditionally, the stark structure of graphic lines was considered too much of an X-ray skeleton to be read directly. The various verbal images and metaphors used to explain the trigrams and hexagrams are all illustrative, but their illustration refers to some specific context being used as reference.

The images of the two trigrams of hexagram 23, Mountain over Earth clearly indicates a high top very far from its bottom suggesting the solid line way up there is lacking in a lot of support from the open lines under it and could easily come falling down.

The hexagrams are symbols of the 6 stages of natural development or process from beginning or origin stage in the first line place to the transition to the next in the sixth.

The origin of my FLUX TOME (I Ching) perspective is that the hexagrams express a six-stage sequential view of any and all process with their meaning contained fully in just which stages are highlighted with Yang lines.

Oracles add an additional dynamic by allowing for yang highlights to be expressing and exhausting themselves (moving yang lines) or becoming highlights (moving Yin lines). In this perspective Yin line places are part of the overall hexagram matrix, the background in Gestalt terms, and not at all any sort of separate but equal line-ness.

A hexagram is then a graphic matrix to symbolize the entire relevant- process system of describing universally how things appear and feel to each of us. Hexagram 2 is pure background, which takes on the image of the topography of our Planet Earth as that is as close to absolute background as we have, there being no Zero in natural reality.

Hexagram 23 has only one highlighted line place, the Yang line in the 6th or final place. This represents a process situation where only the final transitional phase of the current situation is a focus as it moves on into the next process situation. The image of pulling off a Band-Aid brand sticking plaster is quite literally expressive. The 6-year old notes the pain of this transition from wounded situation to the next stage, which is the return to un-bandaged normalcy hopefully or the trip to the ER if the wound's next process is now terrible.

In a relationship situation, hexagram 23 describes attention is solely focused upon what comes next, the inevitable question "where is this relationship going?" has now eclipsed everything prior or continuing to insist upon solely looking to what comes next. Generally, relationships are more enjoyable as they continue a process with a rich history and development rather than insisting upon jumping into the unknown next.

Since all oracles are symbolic images of how things feel, there is always the alternative of changing the situation by returning to focus upon all the prior developments rather than allowing the focus to jump away into the Next.

In terms of the exact question of this thread, is 'splitting apart in hex 23 to be taken literally?' that is always an option for the next process, but not a requirement.

In my Flux Tome hexagram names, I use Fall's Down for hexagram 23. That can mean a falling down or it can mean the fluttering down of dropping ripe fruit and beautiful leaves. Just as much as hex 23 can mean splitting apart, it can mean it is time to harvest the accumulated growth of this current stage to move on into the next total set of stages.

In answer to the perennial question, where is this all going? Hexagram 23 answers out of this situation and into the next. Too often in real relationships this is not a good place to be; however, the hexagram 23 oracle also indicates the reason is that all stages of the history and process of this current relationship are being ignored to only focus upon something else that is more desirable--that next situation which becomes more difficult to actually attain without a focus upon holding on to all the prior stages of this one as well.

Moving lines in an oracle starting with hexagram 23 indicate where the current details of focus are being placed. Moving Yang in the 6th place indicates an active focus in making this transition to the next conscious and directed, so it bears a favorable judgment of a successful harvest with justice decreed for the current situation's resolution. Moving Yin in the 5th place brings organizational focus in support of the transition to the next, so it also has a favorable judgment indicating organization support for this transition will come from background players being brought into active co-operation to achieve the transition. The mass of little fish has been organized into a great catch with substantial weight.

The moving Yin in the third place, indicating a focus upon the individual passion represents the emergence of a new personal energy which at least will bring balance to the headlong rush into the next. Its resultant is hexagram 52, the Mountain, (or Peaks [peeks, piques] in Flux Tome name) where the jump into the next is balanced or held in check. The image here notes that aspect of a mountain as a balance in the local topography of Earth piled up surrounded by valley all around.

The other lines moving are all difficult distractions since the overall focus has moved on to the next bypassing their stages. The moving line focus is therefore an interference with the process momentum which is a disruptive tension.

The other three line places, 1,2 or 4 use the image of a bed being split apart to represent the process of the current situation you are used to is being forced to change into the next which is unknown, disconnected to what is current and therefore likely to be an uncomfortable transition.
[more background to the Flux Tome perspective on my website at
www.stars-n-dice.com/fluxtome.html ]

As to a systematic discussion of the direction of each of the 8 trigrams, they generally follow traditional Aristotle, things of the Heavens tend up, things of the Earth sink down, so Heaven (sunshine), Thunder, Fire, Wind (growing wood) all press upward, while Earth, Mountain, Water, and Lake all sink downward. Thunder in Chinese view comes out of the Earth toward lightning coming down from the sky while wind or growing wood is the growth away from the solid Earth and up into the heavenly. Everything containing earth or water are traditionally mundane and sink lower by their natural motion.

Dr. Frank R. Kegan

fkegan said:

As to a systematic discussion of the direction of each of the 8 trigrams, they generally follow traditional Aristotle, things of the Heavens tend up, things of the Earth sink down, so Heaven (sunshine), Thunder, Fire, Wind (growing wood) all press upward, while Earth, Mountain, Water, and Lake all sink downward. Thunder in Chinese view comes out of the Earth toward lightning coming down from the sky while wind or growing wood is the growth away from the solid Earth and up into the heavenly. Everything containing earth or water are traditionally mundane and sink lower by their natural motion.

Dr. Frank R. Kegan

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That was pretty good, thanks for sharing (may I call you Frank?)

Actually, I agree with you about the tendencies of the trigrams, as described above by you and is what I've been using myself. However, as an interesting curiosity, while I was looking for a proper quote/table of trigrams attributes for Hilary, as she is correct saying that there are bits and pieces mentioned in many works but very few places where those specific attributes are described in one place, I found a table in "The Inner Structure of the I Ching" by Lama Anagarika Govinda, pgs.46 & 47, where he differs with our take in the attributes of Wind and Lake (down and up, for him, respectively)

Best,

I jumped too fast to what Aristotle might have said

Hi Luis,
Yes, you are welcome to call me Frank. I only use the full name with title when I am referring to academic matters and want folks to know my disdain for the 'academic' or 'modern' is the result of transcending my Ivy League education and rests upon doctoral status--though my original degree was in Chemistry and Other Religions before my classmates brought forth the New Curriculum, so I fought for it through the full antique committee process.

You are correct! In Wilhelm, appended judgment on hexagram 10 in book III notes..."the movement of the two primary trigrams is upward, hence the idea that one strides behind the other."

Here is one view based on the line places exactly-- the natural tendency of any gua is to progress upward from first line place toward final stage. There is a relationship tension from yang lines towards Yin places, so that a Yin place ahead of Yang lines would encourage the Yang to move upward to fill its open space. And a Yin place below Yang lines would would pull on the Yang lines to flow down and fill the Yin place instead of moving on up.

Similarly, with wind/wood, its open Yin first line place tugs on the Yang pair in later places. I would see that as the Yang action being cut off from its roots and focused upon its next stage or its effects which is a good description of wind. But in a purely technical basis wind in China apparently meant the action of Heaven descending from the atmosphere to press down upon the folks on Earth--like the Chinese notion that thunder moves up out of the Earth to grab the clouds to cause lightning and rain.

Lake is process with an open final result so the pair of Yang lines are encouraged to flow upward and evaporate to produce the next turn of the water cycle.

Wind does blow 'down' from the heavens to cause stuff on Earth while Lakes do evaporate sending water vapor upward.

My apologies getting that wrong on the basis of modern notions of wind and deep water.
The wind is the atmosphere drawn down by the local Earth topography to cause things in villages and fields to blow around. Deep Water or Lakes are lots of stuff and energy encouraged to move on toward their open next stage or process development to turn the wheel of the water cycle with new evaporation.

As my father used to say, "Damn clever those Chinese!"

Frank

Hi Frank,

It makes sense. I like that concept of Yin lines pulling Yang ones. Ah, life... The Lama has it right, then...

Trigrams and hexagrams rising and sinking

I went back to the the first posts about which trigrams rise and which sink and the initial question if it were trigrams or hexagrams composed of doubled trigrams. Since I don't believe anything we say is ever ultimately an error. I started considering hexagram 58 as double of trigram Lake and hex 57 as double of trigram Wind.

As full hexagrams, the each have 4 Yang lines, so they are expressions of process with stages missing. In 57 Wind, it is the roots and heart/soul which are open. The Yin line in the first place pulls the process to re-attach to the grounding while the open heart lets the process follow the energy gradients in the atmosphere without any plan of its own.

Similarly, hexagram 58 Lake has its Yin lines in the third and 6th place where they pull the process upward. The Lake has no passion, the potential energy of the rushing rivers is all converted into kinetic energy and that energy dissipated into the quiescence of the standing water. The dynamic is expressed by the Yin line in the 6th place which pulls the process upward as the inner dynamic that evaporates water to begin the next turn of the water cycle.

That pretty well exhausts my thought of this spurt. I will take some time to read the two other documents on King Wen Sequence and then post my announcement of my new pages.
Frank

I'd always assumed lake tends downward... thinking of hexagram 47 as an obvious example. But come to think of it, you can see 60 as lake feeding 'up' into the stream. Plants grow upward (46) but root downwards; wind can mean a very 'down to earth' state of connection and observation (20, 9). It looks to me as though wind and lake can tend either way, depending on the relationship they're in at the time. The other trigram tendencies seem more definite.

I share the view of wind as open at the roots - listening for messages from within, often hearing the mandate as a result. And lake singing upward, an outward-facing stance.

PS Prompted by your mention of Wilhelm book III, I went and looked up #38 there. Sure enough, it explains how 'water seeps downward', so that when fire and lake are in motion the distance between them increases. It's all about the relationship - well, there's a surprise...

Lake goes up and down in different hexagrams

Hi Hillary,
I didn't notice the exact reference in your post at first, but later I realized I had given up my initial view of Lake tending downward to accept it tends upward in the direction of its water evaporating to start the water cycle all over again (hex 10).

Then I checked your reference to hex 38 and indeed it says in Commentary on the
Decision that "lake moves downward" and later that ..."water seeps downward." Water trigram certainly must tend downward, as water takes all its motion from falling down the topography from mountain tops to the sea. But Lake moves downward what is that?....

So, I checked hex 47 with Lake on top and sure enough Wilhelm's Appended Judgment notes "The forces tend in opposite directions. K'an, the lower trigram sinks downward, while Tui, the upper evaporates upward."

So, what is going on in hex 38. I would first suggest to follow the image of the two younger sisters. The middle daughter, Li is moving away from her little sister, asserting her higher status as elder of the two. Li the younger is following after, trying to rise up as we youngest try to do with our big siblings. The opposition comes not from the two daughters moving in opposite directions, but from the upper trying to get away from the younger and the younger running after and pestering her. In hex 10, the youngest daughter is running after and stepping on Father Ch'ien's heels, but she is the adorable youngest daughter, so he doesn't turn around and even glare at the little girl.

The water in the Lake seeps downward, but the Lake overall evaporates upward. So, if the running water is under the Lake, that is water isn't flowing in to fill the lake (hex 60) then the Lake tends to dry up by evaporating the water that remains to it. Fire over a Lake doesn't occur much in nature, so the simpler metaphor is the two competing younger daughters.

Frank