45. Ts'ui / Gathering Together [Massing]

rosada · Jul 26, 2008

45. Ts'ui / Gathering Together [Massing]

__ __
_____ above TUI THE JOYOUS, LAKE
_____
__ __
__ __ below K'UN THE RECEPTIVE
__ __

This hexagram is related in form and meaning to Pi, HOLDING TOGETHER (8). In the latter, water is over the earth; here a lake is over the earth. But since the lake is a place where water collects, the idea of gathering together is even more strongly expressed here than in the other hexagram. The same idea also arises from the fact that in the present case it is two strong lines (the fourth and the fifth) that bring about the gathering together, whereas in the former case one strong line (the fifth) stands in the midst of the weak lines.

The rulers of the hexagram are the nine in the fifth place and, secondarily, the nine in the fourth. Only these two yang lines are in high places. They gather all the yin lines around them.

THE SEQUENCE
When creatures meet one another, they mass together. Hence there follows the hexagram of GATHERING TOGETHER. Gathering together means massing.

MISCELLANEOUS NOTES
GATHERING TOGETHER means massing.

In the two light lines, of which one is in the place of the prince or father, and the other in the place of minister or son, the hexagram has a strong focus for gathering together the other lines, all of which belong to the dark principle. While the two primary trigrams, K'un and Tui (crowd and joyousness), indicate the basis of the gathering together, the two nuclear trigrams have the meaning of standing still (Ken) and exerting influence (Sun), which likewise indicates gathering together.
- Wilhelm

Sparhawk · Jul 27, 2008

meng · Jul 27, 2008

http://www.yijing.nl/candid/hexagrams/45.htm

rosada · Jul 28, 2008

I'm reading the biography of Barack Obama. His mother was the second wife of his black father who came from Kenya. He grew up in Indonesia and ultimately was raised by his white grandparents in Hawaii. He went to Occidental College and then Harvard. Thus, he had a very diverse background, it's as if parts of him represent peoples from all different ethnicities and eras. He seems a suitable symbol of 44. Coming to Meet - 45. Gathering Together, someone who within himself has all these connections with all these different cultures meeting on the inner level, 44., now becoming the political leader, 45., the walking embodiment of "We are all one," gathering together, on the outer level.

rosada · Jul 28, 2008

THE JUDGEMENT

GATHERING TOGETHER. Success.
The king approaches his temple.
It furthers one to see the great man.
This brings success. Perseverance furthers.
To bring great offerings creates good fortune.
It furthers one to undertake something.

The gathering together of people in large communities is either a natural occurrence, as is the case of the family, or an artificial one, as in the case of the state. The family gathers about the father as its head. The perpetuation of this gathering in groups is achieved through the sacrifice to the ancestors, at which the whole clan is gathered together. Through the collective piety of the living members of the family, the ancestors become so integrated in the spiritual life of the family that it cannot be dispersed or dissolved.
Where men are to be gathered together, religious forces are needed. But there must also be a human leader to serve as the center of the group. In order to be able to bring others together, this leader must first of all be collected within himself. Only collective moral force can unite the world. Such great times of unification will leave great achievements behind them. This is the significance of the great offerings that are made. In the secular sphere likewise there is need of great deeds in the time of GATHERING TOGETHER.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Jul 28, 2008

Nice synchronicity with the Olympics happening as we are here at Gathering Together.

rosada · Jul 29, 2008

COMMENTARY ON THE DECISION

GATHERING TOGETHER means massing. Devoted and at the same time joyous.

The strong stands in the middle and finds correspondence. Therefore the others mass around it.

"The king approaches his temple." This brings about reverence and success.

"It furthers one to see the great man. This brings success." The massing takes place on a correct basis.

"To bring great offerings creates good fortune. It furthers one to undertake something," for that is devotion to the command of heaven.

By observing what they gather together, one can behold relationships of heaven and earth and of all creatures.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Jul 29, 2008

I'm seeing the power of the maiden in Coming to Meet as refering to the power of the unconscious. We are all one on the unconscious plane, The Collective Unconscious. Any idea can be paired, mated, with any other. As we realize this is true and how this works, we can then bring any idea in to connection with any other in the outer world, the conscious plane, with Gathering Together.

rosada · Jul 29, 2008

The strong line in the fifth place represents the king, the great man, whom it is favorable to see. Below him is the nuclear trigram Ken, meaning mountain and house. By his side there stands moreover the strong line in the fourth place, that of the minister. The mountain indicates perseverance. Mountains and temple are both places where great offerings are brought, Wind, the upper nuclear trigram Sun, means the influence of what is above, as a result of which works begun will meet with success.

The name of the hexagram is explained in the Commentary on the Decision in a number of ways: (1) the attributes of the two trigrams are devotion and joyousness, on the basis of which gathering together takes place; (2) a gathering needs a head, a center of crystallization, and this is provided in the nine in the fifth place, around which the other lines gather, In order to gather the people together, the ruler above needs joyousness (Tui); the people below show themselves devoted (K'un).
There is in addition a reference to religion as the basis of gathering together in a community. Heaven is the bond of union in nature, as the ancestors are the bond of union among men. If one knows these forces, all relationships become clear.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Jul 29, 2008

Tui, Joyousness.
__ __
_____ The king, the great man, whom it is favorable to see.
_____ At his side the minister.

Sun, the upper nuclear trigram, means the influence of what is above,
_____
_____ as a result of which works
__ __ begun will meet with success.

Ken, the lower nuclear trigram, meaning mountain and house, temple.
_____
__ __ The mountain indicates perseverance.
__ __ Mountain and temple are places where great offerings are brought.

K'un, the lower trigram, devotion.
__ __
__ __
__ __

rosada · Jul 29, 2008

I have a question about the nuclear trigrams. Do we just read them as trigrams, in this case Ken and Sun, or do we also consider them as a hexagram? That is, we say that the elements of mountain and wind tell us something about Gathering Together, but do we also consider that trigrams Ken and Sun form hexagram 33 and does hexagram 33 have anything to say about 45?

dobro · Jul 29, 2008

Ken and Sun make 53.

rosada · Jul 29, 2008

Right, thank you. So do we consider that hexagram 53. Gradual Progress has something to say about 45. Gathering Together?

rosada · Jul 30, 2008

THE IMAGE

Over the earth, the lake:
The image of GATHERING TOGETHER.
Thus the superior man renews his weapons
In order to meet the unforeseen.

If the water in the lake gathers until it rises above the earth, there is a danger of a break-through. Precautions must be taken to prevent this, Similaly where men gather together in great numbers, strife is likely to arise: where possessions are collected, robber is likely to occur. Thus in the time of GATHERING TOGETHER we must arm promptly to ward off the unexpected. Human woes usually come as a result of unexpected events against which we are not forarmed. If we are prepared, they can be prevented.

The juxtaposition of the two trigrams provides the image of GATHERING TOGETHER. In that the lake is over the earth and therefore threatens overflow, the danger connected with gathering together is also indicated. The primary trigrams and the nuclear trigrams, taken individually, show how these dangers are to be met.
Tui means metal, hence weapons,
K'un means renewal (earth produces metal).
The nuclear trigram Sun means the penetrating, the unforeseen.
The nuclear trigram Ken means keeping still, obstruction.
-Wilhelm

charly · Jul 30, 2008

rosada said:
...
GATHERING TOGETHER. Success.
The king approaches his temple.
It furthers one to see the great man.
This brings success. Perseverance furthers.
To bring great offerings creates good fortune.
It furthers one to undertake something.

The gathering together of people in large communities is either a natural occurrence, as is the case of the family, or an artificial one, as in the case of the state. ... Where men are to be gathered together, religious forces are needed. But there must also be a human leader to serve as the center of the group. In order to be able to bring others together, this leader must first of all be collected within himself...
-Wilhelm

Rosada:

Wilhelm is speaking of the UNION of MASSES obtained by a LEADER apt for the task, that's why GATHERING:

Chinese characters, pinyin, usual meanings, W/B options:

萃cui4: collect / gather // dense / grassy / GATHERING [TOGETEHER]

亨heng1: feast / SUCCESS

王wang2: king / [THE] KING
假jia3: fake / false / if / suppose / hypothese / APPROACHES
有you3: to have / there is / there are / to exist / HIS
廟miao4: temple / monastery / TEMPLE

利li4: benefit / profit / profitable / [IT] FURTHERS [ONE]
見jian4: to see / to meet / TO SEE
大da4: big / great / [THE] GREAT
人ren2: man / person / people / MAN

亨heng1: feast [THIS BRINGS] SUCCESS

利li4: benefit / profit / profitable / FURTHERS
貞zhen1: perseverance / omen / divination / PERSEVERANCE

用yong4: to use / to apply / TO BRING
大da4: big / great / GREAT
牲sheng1: animal / sacrificial animal / OFFERINGS
吉ji2: lucky [CREATES] GOOD FORTUNE

利li4: benefit / profit / profitable / [IT] FURTHERS [ONE]
有you3: to have / there is / there are / to exist TO UNDERTAKE
攸you1: distant, far / SOMETHING
往wang3: to go in a direction / ...

Some W/B options are conflictive:

假jia3: translated as a verb (APPROACHES) and 有you3: to have, translated as HIS, while the usual meanings mekes good sense:
The KING, SUPPOSEDLY, HAS a TEMPLE. It's a general assuption that the temple belongs to the king, it's a supposition.

牲sheng1, meaning animals, beasts, mainly sacrificial animals, is translated with the abstract OFFERINGS. The more concrete ANIMALS will provoke the question «Wich animals?» and maybe some answers like:

Great animals used in sacrifices like BULLS,
Another great animals also sacrified, the HUMAN BEINGS
Something more abstract like VITAL DRIVES

The complex LI YOU YOU WANG evassively translated, accept more literal approaches:

Profitable for going far, profitable for a long trip.
Profitable to have some place to go.
Profitable to act with purpose

Maybe a subterfuge for saving the royal image, when, as LiSe points, H.45 speaks of GATHERING TROOPS, I believe, POPULAR TROOPS.

Temporary literal translation:

FEAST:

The KING SUPPOSEDLY HAS a TEMPLE.
PROFITABLE TO MEET GREAT-PERSON.

FEAST,
PROFITABLE OMEN

TO USE BIG ANIMALS is LUCKY
PROFITABLE TO HAVE TO GO FAR.

There is a parallelism between the paragraph after the first FEAST and the paragraph after the second:

Feast (1):
The King has his center and his a court,
but all the sovereingty don't belongs to him but to the people.

Feast (2):
Would to God!
To apply HUMAN BEINGS and DEEPLY ROOTED DRIVES is lucky, has possibility of success.
To have LONG TERM GOALS is profitable. To GO SO FAR AS NECESSARY is profitable.

The basis for popular troops recruitment, for getting allies and to defeat abussive power.

I believe that Zhou people would agree.

Yours,

Charly

Trojina · Jul 30, 2008

seems to be many similarities to hexagram 7 -

rosada · Jul 31, 2008

Yeah. Seems like 7 is about one man getting his own act together, and then 45 is about a group of such men coming together to work as one. Or 7 could be seen as One Nation, and 45 as The United Nations.

rosada · Aug 1, 2008

I just signed up for Facebook, the computer group that allows you to connect with your friends and also with the friends of your friends. Facebook seems like a manifestation of 45. Gathering Together. Not only is it a way for groups of friends to come together but there is of course the underlying danger of connecting with people who's ideas one might not want to be associated with - and thus the need to renew one's weapons to meet the unforeseen.

rosada · Aug 1, 2008

The lines

45.1
Six at the beginning means:
If you are sincere, but not to the end,
There will sometimes be confusion, sometimes
gathering together.
If you call out,
Then after one grasp of the hand you can laugh again.
Regret not, Going is without blame.

The situation is this: People desire to gather around a leader to whom they look up. But they are in a large group, by which they allow themselves to be influence, so that they waver in their decision. Thus they lack a firm center around which to gather. But if expression is given to this need, and if they call for help, one grasp of the hand from the leader is enough to turn away all distress. Therefore they must not allow themselves to be led astray. It is undoubtedly right that they should attach themselves to this leader.

"Sometimes confusion, sometimes gathering together." The will is in confusion.

The weak line at the beginning is not yet stabilized. To be sure, there is a relationship of correspondence with the nine in the fourth place - indicating sincerity - but since the line is associated with the two other weak lines of K'un, it allows itself to be influenced by these, so that its natural relations with the nine in the fourth place are disturbed. This brings confusion. But a call (Tui is mouth, hence call) suffices to do away with the misunderstanding, and laughter comes again (Tui is joyousness). It is important, however, to hold to the upward direction.
-Wilhelm

rosada · Aug 1, 2008

The first line of any hexagram describes circumstances before one has gotten into the experience delineated by the hexagram. Thus 45.1 describes the feeling before Gathering Together happens, the feeling of being separate and thus disoriented. I think it's interesting to reflect back on 44.6, the previous line in the sequence of the hexagrams. 44.6 describes someone who has withdrawn from the world but we see now that this sort of detachment ultimately leads to confusion, like being in a sensory deprivation capsule and thus the feeling of 45.1, disorientation, and the need to touch hands.

Suggestion for our song book,
45.1
Get Me to The Church On Time"

"I'm getting married in the morning!
Ding! Dong!
The bells are going to chime!
{something..something..}
Raise up a rumpus!
BUT DON'T LOSE THE COMPASS!
And get me to the church on time!"

charly · Aug 1, 2008

rosada said:
45.1
Six at the beginning means:
If you are sincere, but not to the end,
There will sometimes be confusion, sometimes
gathering together.
If you call out,
Then after one grasp of the hand you can laugh again.
Regret not, Going is without blame.
...
-Wilhelm

Rosada:

Much people think that H.45 speaks of HUMAN SACRIFICES, bases in the character fu, translated as CAPTIVE OF WAR. I believe that fu could be translated as CAPTIVE or as TO CATCH, in this hexagram maybe the first is best.

Chinese characters, pinying, usual meanings, W/B:

有 you3 / to have / there is / there are / [IF YOU] ARE
孚 fu2 / trust / sincerity / captive / to catch / SINCERE
不 bu4 / not / no / less / [BUT] NOT
終 zhong1 / end / finish / [TO THE] END

乃 nai3 / then / thus / so / THERE WIL BE SOMETIMES
亂 luan4 / confusion / disorderly / CONFUSION
乃 nai3 / then /thus / so / SOMETIMES
萃 cui4 / grassy / gather / to collect / GATHERING TOGETHER

若 ruo4 / to seem / like / as / if / IF [YOU]
號 hao4 / roar / cry / CALL OUT [THEN AFTER]
一 yi1 / one / 1 / single / ONE
握 wo4 / shake hands / to hold / to grasp / GRASP OF THE HAND
為 wei2 / act as / to produce / to become / [YOU] CAN
笑 xiao4 / laugh / smile / LAUGH [AGAIN]

勿 wu4 / do not / NOT
恤 xu4 / worry / REGRET

往 wang3 / to go in a direction / towards / GOING
无 wu2 / without / not / no / [IS] WITHOUT
咎 jiu4 / blame / mistake / wrong / BLAME

Some observations:

孚fu2: I prefer, as much authors, CAPTIVE/S
不終bu4 zhong1 / endless / infinite / VERY MUCH / TOO MUCH
乃nai3 marks two alternatives / possibilities, a disjunction.
萃cui4 UNION goes better with CONFUSION
握wo4 shake hands TO SEAL AN ALLIANCE, may be among barbars

Maybe more clear and not totally conflictive with W/B version:

HAVING CAPTIVES WITHOUT END
If there are endless captives, say a great mass (remember W/B)

NOW CONFUSED, NOW UNITED
Oscilating between confusion (lack of self consciousness) and union (as condition of self consciousness) (1)

LIKE a ROAR,
Like a tiger roar thar quicly propagates to long distances.

ONE SHAKE OF HANDS
Whith only getting united,

BECOMES LAUGH
Can obtain success, or can promise the possibility of such success (then laugh).

DON'T WORRY
Do not be ansious about the results or about the costs, because ...

GOING is NO WRONG
To go in such direction is not a mistake.

This line do not promise the success but stands the premise for getting it:

the union of the comrades, the mass, the «captives»
class consciousness, self consciousness, not to be in confusion

Yours,

Charly

___________________________
(1) Maybe «united or dominated» ...

... el año 2000 nos encontrará unidos o dominados...
J.D.Perón: La Hora de los Pueblos

rosada · Aug 2, 2008

Hi Charly,
45 has me thinking about how we have all these inner connections with people and how together we make up the energy grid. With 44 I think we were seeing that on the unconscious level we are all one and that 44.5, nothing can prevent an idea whose time has come. Now with 45 we are encouraged to enter into public life, to take the ideals we feel intuitively to be Universal Truth and live them consciously.

rosada · Aug 2, 2008

45.1
Hello! Anybody out there?

Trojina · Aug 2, 2008

rosada said:
With 44 I think we were seeing that on the unconscious level we are all one and that 44.5, nothing can prevent an idea whose time has come. .

Why do you say in 44 we are realising we are all one Rosada ?

hollis · Aug 2, 2008

charly said:
Rosada:

Much people think that H.45 speaks of HUMAN SACRIFICES, bases in the character fu, translated as CAPTIVE OF WAR. I believe that fu could be translated as CAPTIVE or as TO CATCH, in this hexagram maybe the first is best.

another one of those human sacrifice hexagrams. is that correct? is line 1 the person who doesn't want their head on the chopping block, or just can't quite seem to go forward with the happy group plan the king has in mind?

rosada · Aug 3, 2008

Hi Trojan,
Well I guess saying 44 teaches we are all one is a bit of a stretch. I was looking at 45 as being The Collective Conscious and it seemed then that 44 makes sense as The Collective Unconscious.

rosada · Aug 3, 2008

45.2
Six in the second place means:
Letting oneself be drawn
Brings good fortune and remains blameless.
If one is sincere,
It furthers one to bring even a small offering.

In the time of GATHERING TOGETHER, we should make no arbitrary choice of the way. There are secret forces at work, leading together those who belong together. We must yield to this attraction; then we make no mistakes. Where inner relationships exist, no great preparations and formalities are necessary. People understand each other forthwith, ust as the Divinity graciously accepts a small offering if it comes from the heart.

"Letting oneself be drawn brings good fortune and remains blameless." The middle is still unchanged.

Here there is a strong inner relationship of correspondence with the nine in the fifth place, the ruler of the hexagram. Therefore this line is naturally attracted by the strong line. Since it is central, it does not permit itself to be wrongly influenced by its environment. Hence this inner influence takes effect.

The fan yao of this line is 47.2:
The man in the scarlet knee bands is just coming.
To set forth brings misfortune.
No blame.

This pictures a state of inner oppression.
Externally, all is well, one has meat and drink. But one is exhausted by the commonplace of life, and there seems to be no way of escape. Then help comes from a high place. A prince - in ancient China princes wore scarlet kneebands - is in search of able helpers. But there are still obstructions in the invisable realm by offerings and prayer. To set forth without being prepared would be disastrous, though not morally wrong. Here a disagreeable situation must be overcome by patience of spirit.

charly · Aug 3, 2008

rosada said:
... Now with 45 we are encouraged to enter into public life, to take the ideals we feel intuitively to be Universal Truth and live them consciously.

Hi Ros:

I believe that it's so.

Matybe something to do with the LONG MARCH of MAO ZEDONG.

From: http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/232503.htm

Yours,

Charly

charly · Aug 3, 2008

rosada said:
45.2
Six in the second place means:
Letting oneself be drawn
Brings good fortune and remains blameless.
If one is sincere,
It furthers one to bring even a small offering.
... /QUOTE]
Rosada:

Another line with the damned captives:
(W/B in uppercase)

引yin3 / to lead / to guide / [LETTING ONESELF] BE DRAWN
吉ji2 / lucky / [BRINGS] GOOD FORTUNE
无咎wu2 jiu4 / without blame / [AND REMAINS] BLAMELESS

孚fu2 / trust / sincere / captive / [IF ONE IS] SINCERE
乃nai3 / thus / so / therefore / then / IT
利li4 / advantage / benefit / profitable / FURTHERS [ONE]
用yong4 / to use / to apply / TO BRING
禴yue4 / spring sacrifice / [EVEN A SMALL] OFFERING.

I believe that in W/B there is some bias at the end. W/B take for granted that 禴yue is the name of a royal sacrifice done in springtime during which reed-flutes were played. Why to suppose that the offerings were small? when a king made a sacrifice nothing was small.

The use of 乃nai means that there is a consequence between the leading of the masses and the way the masses (captives) behave: they are marching sincronizedly like in a well ordered sacred exhibition. As the leadership is lucky and errorless masses march as if they were playing music under a good director.

The character 禴yue has two components SACRED and REED-FLUTE and not only means sarifice.

孚乃利用禴...
Captives use the music instruments (of the yue sacrifice).
H.Mesker
From: http://images.google.com.ar/imgres?...7%A6%B4&gbv=2&hl=es&newwindow=1&safe=off&sa=G

Click to expand...

LEADING LUCKY NO BLAME
There is a good leadership with no mistakes,

CAPTIVES, THEN, PROFITABLY USE MUSIC.
They marched like a music instrument.

And if the captives were girls playing the reed-flute?

Yours,

Charly

rosada · Aug 4, 2008

Secret forces are bringing compatible spirits together. If the man permits himself to be led by this ineffable attraction, good fortune will come his way. When deep friendships exist, formalities and elaborate preparations are unnecessary.
-The Portable Dragon.

45. Ts'ui / Gathering Together [Massing]

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